SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
How do you know the 4th empire was Rome?
ECT If MAD is False Why Did Paul Make the Distinction in Romans 4:16?
- Thread starter Lighthouse
- Start date
turbosixx
New member
I have yet to see anyone claim it's not. History clearly shows it came after the Greek Empire. Jesus appeared during the reign of the Roman Empire and proclaimed the kingdom was at hand and I believe he established it just as Daniel prophesied.
Right Divider
Body part
"At hand" does NOT mean established.
Where do you see confirmation that the kingdom that was at hand was actually established? Particularly in light of the prophecy in Luke 19:12-27 and Matt 25.
turbosixx
New member
When I see the church as Israel all the pieces fit, but if Israel is physical Israel they don’t. I see all the scriptures in harmony but if the church isn’t Israel then I see contradictions. Just as the earthy tabernacle was a physical representation of the Heavenly one so was the physical nation of Israel a representation of God’s people whose citizenship is in Heaven.
Maybe you can help me see this the way you do.
Rom. 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
Everyone descended from Israel has to physically be an Israelite but he says they’re not. Then he goes on to explain what he means.
9:7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants,
Ishmael and Esau are not in the lineage of Jacob.
Now he tells us who truly is an Israelite.
but: "through Isaac your descendants will be named." 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.
This fits with other scriptures. Here it says the Jews are like Ishmael and Christians like Isaac.
Gal. 4:22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.
4: 28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also.
The church wasn't the mystery but the fact that the Gentiles are now fellow heirs, partakers of the promise was hidden, Jews would have never understood or accepted that.
Eph. 3:4 When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. 6 This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
Prior to the cross they excluded from Israel and the promise.
Eph. 2: 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world
I believe all scripture. Do I understand it all, no but I feel good in the fact that I can read it all and see it fits like James 2 and Romans 4. I believe every word as written without having to add or take away and see that it applies to me.
I know you think I'm not trying to understand your point of view but I am. It's not easy to divide what I've seen united all these years.
Are you trying to see it my way?
turbosixx
New member
If you're looking for a physical kingdom you won't see it but I see it spiritually.
Jn. 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world."
After his D,B&R, we see the kingdom proclaimed but no longer at hand.
Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ,
Would it still be good news if it wasn't coming for 2,000 plus years?
Paul said we are transferred to it therefore it must exist. We have forgiveness of sins in this kingdom.
Col. 1:13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
In this kingdom/church Heaven and earth are united.
Matt. 16:19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."
Luke 19:
I'll have to look into it deeper. Off the top of my head it looks like the parable of the talents. In that parable its obvious when he returns its judgment because the one talent man is thrown into outer darkness.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
According to the Lord Jesus the kingdom will be near at hand wen He returns:
"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand" (Lk.21:27:31).
So unless you want to argue that the Lord Jesus has already returned to the earth then you must admit that the setting up of the kingdom remains in the future.
turbosixx
New member
Are you saying Daniel's prophecy didn't come true?
Dan. 2:44 And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people.
He doesn't mention a fifth kingdom and Jesus appeared during the Roman Empire saying the kingdom was at hand.
turbosixx
New member
As for this parable, I don't claim to know for sure. I understand some of it is about 70AD but I understand v25 on to be like Pentecost. When the Spirit was poured out on Pentecost this is what Joel said it would look like.
Acts 2:16 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:
17 "'And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams;
18 even on my male servants and female servants
in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.
19 And I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke;
20 the sun shall be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood,
before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day.
Luke 21 is before Pentecost so it's still looing to the future. You stopped at verse 31, if we look at the next verse he says it will take place during this generation.
31 So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that the kingdom of God is near. 32 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all has taken place.
Much like this verse.
Lk. 9:27 But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God."
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Evidently it was postponed because the Lord Jesus said that the kingdom wouldn't be near at hand until He returns to the earth.
The Lord Jesus also said that it would not be until He returns to the earth that He will begin to sit upon His throne:
"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory" (Mt.25:31).
Matthew Henry places "these kings" in the future:
"It was to be set up in the days of these kings, the kings of the fourth monarchy, of which particular notice is taken (Lu. 2:1), That Christ was born when, by the decree of the emperor of Rome, all the world was taxed, which was a plain indication that that empire had become as universal as any earthly empire ever was. When these kings are contesting with each other, and in all the struggles each of the contending parties hopes to find its own account, God will do his own work and fulfil his own counsels. These kings are all enemies to Christ's kingdom, and yet it shall be set up in defiance of them."
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
If the translation about "this generation" is correct then we must believe that the Lord Jesus has already returned to the earth.
Do you believe that?
turbosixx
New member
To say it's postponed is to say it didn't come true. Paul said we are transferred to it so it must exist now making the prophecy true.
Col. 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,
I'd much rather take the view the prophecy came to pass rather than it didn't going on 2,000 plus years.
I understand this to be final judgment. Look at the last verse.
46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
The fourth kingdom is clearly the Roman Empire and Henry is making it not the Roman Empire.
Is there an enemy the church/kingdom hasn't conquered? I understand there to be only one.
Thanks
turbosixx
New member
Not returned but coming in power after his D,B&R. Like Joel said on the great day of the Lord which was Pentecost.
Jesus received power, all authority, by his sacrifice.
Matt. 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
I looked up the Greek word used here for generation, genea, and it looks like it's used to show a generation like here.
Matt. 1:17 So all the generations from Abraham to David were fourteen generations,
I know some of these passages can be difficult to understand and like I said I can't say for 100% but I do my best to make all the pieces fit without having to compromise. If I had to accept Daniels prophecy was postponed how could I believe any prophecy or trust what Jesus says.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The verse you quote only affirms the fact that the kingdom is not here because if it were here then we wouldn't have to be "transferred" to the kingdom. What is spoken about there is this:
"Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph.2:5-6).
The judgment of which you speak will be a judgment of all men, whether dead or alive. The one at Matthew 25 is only in regard to those who are alive. That is not the final judgment.
Besides that, the Lord says that He will begin to sit upon His throne when He returns to the earth. And that is when He will begin to reign over His earthly kingdom:
"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, THEN shall he sit upon the throne of his glory" (Mt.25:31).
That is wrong. Look at what he said again:
"It was to be set up in the days of these kings, the kings of the fourth monarchy, of which particular notice is taken (Lu. 2:1), That Christ was born when, by the decree of the emperor of Rome, all the world was taxed, which was a plain indication that that empire had become as universal as any earthly empire ever was. When these kings are contesting with each other, and in all the struggles each of the contending parties hopes to find its own account, God will do his own work and fulfil his own counsels. These kings are all enemies to Christ's kingdom, and yet it shall be set up in defiance of them."
This discussion is about the "kingdom" and not the Body of Christ. And when the kingdom will come to the earth then God's "will" will be done on the earth as it is in heaven:
"Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven" (Mt.6:10).
Clearly that is not happening now.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Are you saying that this event has already happened?:
"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Mt.24:30).
It has another meaning which fits better.
Right Divider
Body part
I've said it SO many times.... this is Paul saying that UNBELIEVING Israel is "not all Israel" and NOT that any believer is Israel.
The "common churchianity" version is just plain BACKWARDS.
Don't CHOP off the verse.... keep reading!
Rom 9:6-13 (AKJV/PCE)
(9:6) Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel: (9:7) Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. (9:8) That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. (9:9) For this [is] the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. (9:10) And not only [this]; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, [even] by our father Isaac; (9:11) (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
(9:12) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. (9:13) As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
(9:12) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. (9:13) As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. Your point? You're not reading the WHOLE thing.
Rom 9:9 (AKJV/PCE)
(9:9) For this [is] the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
NOTE the PROMISE that Paul is talking about here. It was the promise of a SON to Abraham and Sara.
Even Paul makes sure that we know:
Gal 4:24 (AKJV/PCE)
(4:24) Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Paul is speaking ALLEGORICALLY and he makes that clear.
Your problem is that you think that there is only ONE gospel.
You missed a highlight:
Eph 3:4-9 (AKJV/PCE)
(3:4) Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) (3:5) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; (3:6) That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: (3:7) Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. (3:8) Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; (3:9) And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
When Paul says "BY THE GOSPEL", he is NOT talking about the gospel of the kingdom.
Before Paul, how do you suppose someone could find this thing HID IN GOD?
I guess that you're unaware that their are TWO types of gentiles in the Bible. Gentiles were always welcome to join with Israel, but the gentiles that Paul is talking about HERE were the ones that had rejected that offer long ago.
In Acts 10, Cornelius is an example of the OTHER type of gentile.
I saw it your way when I was a baby Christian and read what "churchianity" was teaching. But then I started to study the Bible and that all changed. I hope that you will too.
Right Divider
Body part
Once again, you simply have a faulty understanding of what Jesus meant there.
John 18:36 (AKJV/PCE)
(18:36) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
You also need a real Bible. Jesus was NOT denying a kingdom on the earth, just when it will be.
Matt 12:32 (AKJV/PCE)
(12:32) And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.
Do you think that, maybe, His kingdom will be in the world to come?
Matt 6:10 (AKJV/PCE)
(6:10) Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven.
Do you think that this kingdom is on earth? Yes, it is.
Neither does it say that the kingdom IS. The good news ABOUT the kingdom of God says nothing of its timing.
There are various ways that "kingdom" are used in relationship to God. Paul is NOT talking about the same kingdom as was preached at hand.
Indeed, WHEN He returns.
Luke 19:12 (AKJV/PCE)
(19:12) He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Daniel 2
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
Did this happen in the first century?
turbosixx
New member
I believe so with the establishment of the church. As far as I know there is only one enemy left to be destroyed.
turbosixx
New member
I'll keep thinking about what we've discussed and I appreciate your time.
turbosixx
New member
No, I understand v15-28 to be 70AD and I understand this is his second coming when he gathers those who are his as we see in the next verse.
Matt. 24:31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Here Paul gives us the order showing at his coming collecting those who are his then he says comes the end.
1 Cor. 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
I can see where it says he must reign until. I guess the question is Christ reigning now. I believe he is.
I will continue to dwell on these things.
Thanks