ECT If MAD is False Why Did Paul Make the Distinction in Romans 4:16?

[Interplanner]

No, he didn't. He identified as both. Ishmael was not an Israelite, though he was a descendant of Abraham. The same goes for Esau.

Paul identified as an Israelite because he was actually one. Physically. He was a Benjamite. But he was in the new dispensation that had been given to him, and thus not as the Israelites who were under the New Covenant like Peter.

So, if you're not a descendant of any of the 12 sons of Jacob/Israel then you are not an Israelite. Unless you have made yourself one as a proselyte. But since none of the dispensations God had with Israel as a nation that's not possible.

The last sentence here seems to have shifted gears midsentence. Please check and rewrite.

Otherwise, it is just denial of what is being said in Rom 9B, and ruins the "us" of the passage.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Lighthouse wrote:
But he was in the new dispensation that had been given to him, and thus not as the Israelites who were under the New Covenant like Peter.

There we have it folks: the bogus thesis. 2P2P. It is not found or supported by anything in the NT. It is fraught with misunderstanding, all to try to keep 2P2P alive. From a person who does not think that 2P2P 'runs' D'ism.

Poor misguided IP...

 

[Right Divider]

This is what I see if we keep reading. The Gentiles being "wild" branches are grafted into the cultivated tree with the other natural branches who were "not" broken off. Who do you see as the tree and branches?

Gentiles were always allowed to join with Israel. That was never an issue.

The olive tree is not Israel. It is service to God.

Israel is a fig tree.

I don't believe the "seed" is Israel but Jesus. If you will notice it's singular. Here we are told Jesus is the seed,one, not many.
Gal. 3:16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ.

I agree that is the way Paul is using this and yet there is more to it than just that.

Once again, read Isaiah 60 with Revelation 21. There you will see the Gentile nations blessing Israel and getting blessed in return. The nations that will not do so, get destroyed.

 

[Right Divider]

The last sentence here seems to have shifted gears midsentence. Please check and rewrite.

:french:

Otherwise, it is just denial of what is being said in Rom 9B, and ruins the "us" of the passage.

:french:

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

If one is not baptized can they be saved by grace?

Baptism is an outward sign of an inward state. But outward actions mean nothing if not followed by a heart that has turned to God in humility.
"God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble." 1 Peter 5:5

 

[DAN P]

Baptism is an outward sign of an inward state. But outward actions mean nothing if not followed by a heart that has turned to God in humility.
"God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble." 1 Peter 5:5

Hi , and what does 1 Peter 5:5 have to do with a OUTWARD SIGN ??

Where is that verse found ??

dan p

 

[turbosixx]

Gentiles were always allowed to join with Israel. That was never an issue.

I agree but is this the same as before or something new?

The olive tree is not Israel. It is service to God.
Israel is a fig tree.

Service to God doesn’t make sense to me. If that were the case, there would not be “natural” and “wild” branches. In your understanding, what makes them natural or wild? I do see the tree as God/Christ.

I agree that is the way Paul is using this and yet there is more to it than just that.

Once again, read Isaiah 60 with Revelation 21. There you will see the Gentile nations blessing Israel and getting blessed in return. The nations that will not do so, get destroyed.

Ok, I’ll read it.

 

[Right Divider]

I agree but is this the same as before or something new?

The "something new" that Paul was preaching was not disclosed (revealed) at the the cross or on the day of Pentecost (which was a lawfully required feast day for Israel, that why there were SO many Jews and proselytes there).

Service to God doesn’t make sense to me. If that were the case, there would not be “natural” and “wild” branches. In your understanding, what makes them natural or wild? I do see the tree as God/Christ.

I think that the two are the same as you think; Israel and gentiles. The ROOT of the tree is Christ.

The olive tree is not the church which is His body.

Ok, I’ll read it.

Thanks

 

[Lighthouse]

I see what you mean. An Israelite is a descendant Abraham through Jacob. I knew all that but just never thought about it that way. I guess because in the NT Abraham and Isaac are talked about most and Jacob is rarely mentioned without including them.

Exactly.

The last sentence here seems to have shifted gears midsentence. Please check and rewrite.

I fixed it. I forgot a word or two.

Otherwise, it is just denial of what is being said in Rom 9B, and ruins the "us" of the passage.

How is it a denial?

Baptism is an outward sign of an inward state. But outward actions mean nothing if not followed by a heart that has turned to God in humility.
"God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble." 1 Peter 5:5

That doesn't answer my question.

Lighthouse wrote:
But he was in the new dispensation that had been given to him, and thus not as the Israelites who were under the New Covenant like Peter.

There we have it folks: the bogus thesis. 2P2P. It is not found or supported by anything in the NT. It is fraught with misunderstanding, all to try to keep 2P2P alive. From a person who does not think that 2P2P 'runs' D'ism.

When something new comes along that which is previous comes to an end. Sometimes there is overlap.

Do you think God just let all the Jews who followed Him continue in their ways and ignored them when He initiated the NC? Or did they continue under the Law and His hand during the transition?

 

[turbosixx]

The "something new" that Paul was preaching was not disclosed (revealed) at the the cross or on the day of Pentecost (which was a lawfully required feast day for Israel, that why there were SO many Jews and proselytes there).

What is the mystery Paul revealed?

I think that the two are the same as you think; Israel and gentiles. The ROOT of the tree is Christ.

The olive tree is not the church which is His body.

This doesn't make sense to me, could you clarify some more. If the root of the tree is Christ and the Gentiles are added to the tree, what else could they be added to besides the body?



I read Isa. 60 and Rev. 21. I don't see the nations serving Israel but Jesus. The nations would be bless through the seed, singular, which is Jesus as we see in Galatians 3.
Gal. 3:16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to offsprings," referring to many, but referring to one, "And to your offspring," who is Christ.

In Hebrews the writer tells the readers they have received a kingdom that cannot be shaken. It's sounds very much like Rev. 21.
12:18 For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire and darkness and gloom and a tempest 19 and the sound of a trumpet and a voice whose words made the hearers beg that no further messages be spoken to them. 20 For they could not endure the order that was given, "If even a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned." 21 Indeed, so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, "I tremble with fear." 22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

25 See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven. 26 At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, "Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens." 27 This phrase, "Yet once more," indicates the removal of things that are shaken—that is, things that have been made—in order that the things that cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe, 29 for our God is a consuming fire.

 

[Interplanner]

What is the mystery Paul revealed?




This doesn't make sense to me, could you clarify some more. If the root of the tree is Christ and the Gentiles are added to the tree, what else could they be added to besides the body?



I read Isa. 60 and Rev. 21. I don't see the nations serving Israel but Jesus. The nations would be bless through the seed, singular, which is Jesus as we see in Galatians 3.
Gal. 3:16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to offsprings," referring to many, but referring to one, "And to your offspring," who is Christ.

In Hebrews the writer tells the readers they have received a kingdom that cannot be shaken. It's sounds very much like Rev. 21.
12:18 For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire and darkness and gloom and a tempest 19 and the sound of a trumpet and a voice whose words made the hearers beg that no further messages be spoken to them. 20 For they could not endure the order that was given, "If even a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned." 21 Indeed, so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, "I tremble with fear." 22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

25 See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven. 26 At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, "Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens." 27 This phrase, "Yet once more," indicates the removal of things that are shaken—that is, things that have been made—in order that the things that cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe, 29 for our God is a consuming fire.

The references to the cross by Christ and to mysteries of the kingdom show that Christ was introducing these things before they happened. This is why the disciples had such a hard time 'getting' what was being said. I'm sure they could have repeated the actual words, but still did not re-do the Judaism they had grown up in.

If someone thinks they grew up in some other kind of background, please let us know! But the indicators are they grew up thinking a Davidic theocracy was going to happen, Jn 12:34. That is much more the dominant belief than what Dan 9 actually said, and many believed that the Servant of Is 53 was Israel not Christ.

 

[Right Divider]

What is the mystery Paul revealed?

The mystery of Christ.

This doesn't make sense to me, could you clarify some more. If the root of the tree is Christ and the Gentiles are added to the tree, what else could they be added to besides the body?

That's a terribly far stretch. Paul is the only one that ever uses the analogy of a BODY for believers. That is because God had long ago given the gentiles up to the own sinful lusts and He separated a people of Himself on the earth: Israel.

I read Isa. 60 and Rev. 21. I don't see the nations serving Israel but Jesus. The nations would be bless through the seed, singular, which is Jesus as we see in Galatians 3.
Gal. 3:16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to offsprings," referring to many, but referring to one, "And to your offspring," who is Christ.

Then you're not a good reader.

Isa 60:15-16 (AKJV/PCE)​

(60:15) Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through [thee], I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations. (60:16) Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD [am] thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob. ​

Do you think that ^THAT^ refers to Christ?

You cannot see the parallels with Rev 21?

Rev 21:22-26 (AKJV/PCE)​

(21:22) And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. (21:23) And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb [is] the light thereof. (21:24) And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. (21:25) And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. (21:26) And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

​

Isa 60:19-21 (AKJV/PCE)​

(60:19) The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory. (60:20) Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended. (60:21) Thy people also [shall be] all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.
​

Your blinders are still on.

In Hebrews the writer tells the readers they have received a kingdom that cannot be shaken. It's sounds very much like Rev. 21.
12:18 For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire and darkness and gloom and a tempest 19 and the sound of a trumpet and a voice whose words made the hearers beg that no further messages be spoken to them. 20 For they could not endure the order that was given, "If even a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned." 21 Indeed, so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, "I tremble with fear." 22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

25 See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven. 26 At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, "Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens." 27 This phrase, "Yet once more," indicates the removal of things that are shaken—that is, things that have been made—in order that the things that cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe, 29 for our God is a consuming fire.

Hebrews is ALL about the HEBREWS, as is Revelation.

Note that "receiving a kingdom" is NOT the same as RECEIVED a kingdom. The kingdom HAS NOT yet come.

The NEW COVENANT is between GOD and ISRAEL.... that is what the Bible says.

Heb 8:6-13 (AKJV/PCE)​

(8:6) But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. (8:7) For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. (8:8) For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: (8:9) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. (8:10) For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: (8:11) And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. (8:12) For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. (8:13) In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away. ​

This confirmed EXACTLY what was said in Jeremiah 31:

Jer 31:31-34 (AKJV/PCE)​

(31:31) ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: (31:32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: (31:33) But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. (31:34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. ​

Why is this so difficult for you to understand? Believe it.

 

[Interplanner]

The mystery of Christ.


That's a terribly far stretch. Paul is the only one that ever uses the analogy of a BODY for believers. That is because God had long ago given the gentiles up to the own sinful lusts and He separated a people of Himself on the earth: Israel.


Then you're not a good reader.

Isa 60:15-16 (AKJV/PCE)​

(60:15) Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through [thee], I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations. (60:16) Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD [am] thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob. ​

Do you think that ^THAT^ refers to Christ?

You cannot see the parallels with Rev 21?

Rev 21:22-26 (AKJV/PCE)​

(21:22) And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. (21:23) And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb [is] the light thereof. (21:24) And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. (21:25) And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. (21:26) And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

​

Isa 60:19-21 (AKJV/PCE)​

(60:19) The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory. (60:20) Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended. (60:21) Thy people also [shall be] all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.
​

Your blinders are still on.


Hebrews is ALL about the HEBREWS, as is Revelation.

Note that "receiving a kingdom" is NOT the same as RECEIVED a kingdom. The kingdom HAS NOT yet come.

The NEW COVENANT is between GOD and ISRAEL.... that is what the Bible says.

Heb 8:6-13 (AKJV/PCE)​

(8:6) But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. (8:7) For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. (8:8) For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: (8:9) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. (8:10) For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: (8:11) And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. (8:12) For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. (8:13) In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away. ​

This confirmed EXACTLY what was said in Jeremiah 31:

Jer 31:31-34 (AKJV/PCE)​

(31:31) ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: (31:32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: (31:33) But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. (31:34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. ​

Why is this so difficult for you to understand? Believe it.

But 'you have come to a mountain' means you are there. why is this so difficult for you to understand? Believe it. The community that exists through the Gospel is very much like what will be in the NHNE, but is entangled by this earth.

He made the new covenant in his blood, and we are ministers of it, 2 Cor 3-5. Why is this so difficult...? Because of 2P2P.

 

[Right Divider]

But 'you have come to a mountain' means you are there. why is this so difficult for you to understand? Believe it. The community that exists through the Gospel is very much like what will be in the NHNE, but is entangled by this earth.

He made the new covenant in his blood, and we are ministers of it, 2 Cor 3-5. Why is this so difficult...? Because of 2P2P.

Continue your lame mocking Mr. Toxic.

The only thing termed the NEW COVENANT in the Bible is CLEARLY and UNEQUIVOCALLY between GOD and ISRAEL. Deal with it.

 

[turbosixx]

The mystery of Christ.

What do you see as the mystery of Christ?

That's a terribly far stretch. Paul is the only one that ever uses the analogy of a BODY for believers. That is because God had long ago given the gentiles up to the own sinful lusts and He separated a people of Himself on the earth: Israel.

How is it a stretch? It fits perfectly. Now that Jesus has died for all men, the Gentiles are grafted into Christ. If it's not the body/church, what do you believe it is?

Yes, analogy. That's all it is an analogy and that is not grounds for making it something different.

 

[turbosixx]

Then you're not a good reader.

Isa 60:15-16 (AKJV/PCE)​

(60:15) Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through [thee], I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations. (60:16) Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD [am] thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob. ​

Do you think that ^THAT^ refers to Christ?

No, but it could be the church.

You cannot see the parallels with Rev 21?

Rev 21:22-26 (AKJV/PCE)​

(21:22) And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. (21:23) And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb [is] the light thereof. (21:24) And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. (21:25) And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. (21:26) And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

​

Isa 60:19-21 (AKJV/PCE)​

(60:19) The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory. (60:20) Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended. (60:21) Thy people also [shall be] all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.
​

Your blinders are still on.

Maybe I do have blinders but I am trying to see from a different perspective. Rev. 21:22 says no temple. Isn’t the temple being rebuilt a requirement?

Hebrews is ALL about the HEBREWS, as is Revelation.

Note that "receiving a kingdom" is NOT the same as RECEIVED a kingdom. The kingdom HAS NOT yet come.

The NEW COVENANT is between GOD and ISRAEL.... that is what the Bible says.

Heb 8:6-13 (AKJV/PCE)​

(8:6) But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. (8:7) For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. (8:8) For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: (8:9) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. (8:10) For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: (8:11) And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. (8:12) For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. (8:13) In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away. ​

This confirmed EXACTLY what was said in Jeremiah 31:

Jer 31:31-34 (AKJV/PCE)​

(31:31) ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: (31:32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: (31:33) But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. (31:34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. ​

Why is this so difficult for you to understand? Believe it.

Yes, Israel but I understand Christians to be Israel. Things before the cross were a physical representation of the spiritual things after the cross. God set Israel apart as his people but today Christians are his people. We are to know no one according to the flesh today.

Here is the reason for my blinders. Daniel said the kingdom would be established during the Roman Empire. Jesus shows up during the Roman Empire saying the kingdom was at hand. When Jesus went around preaching the gospel of the kingdom, did it sound like the earthly kingdom you imagine or does it sound like the church?

It’s not for those of the flesh.
Jn. 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

It’s not real obvious.
Lk. 17:20 Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, "The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, 21 nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or 'There!' for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you."

Doesn’t this sound like the gospel?
Matt. 13:18 "Hear then the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the path. 20 As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away. 22 As for what was sown among thorns, this is the one who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. 23 As for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty."

 

[Jerry Shugart]

When Jesus went around preaching the gospel of the kingdom, did it sound like the earthly kingdom you imagine or does it sound like the church?

What the Lord Jesus said here can only mean that the kingdom is in regard to an earthly kingdom:

"After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven" (Mt.6:9-10).​

 

[turbosixx]

What the Lord Jesus said here can only mean that the kingdom is in regard to an earthly kingdom:

"After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven" (Mt.6:9-10).​

Why do you say this verse can ONLY be an earthly kingdom?


I understand the kingdom and the church to be the same thing and its both on earth and Heaven at the same time. When I read some of the scriptures, it appears that they are interchangeable. For example:

Jesus tells Peter he will build his church on the fact that he is the Christ then the next verse he says he will give him the keys to the kingdom. I see Peter using those keys on Pentecost and letting 3,000 souls in. Those people live on earth but their citizenship is in Heaven.
Matt. 16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Paul said we are transferred to the kingdom which sounds like the body.
Col. 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Paul proclaimed the kingdom and said the elders were overseers of the church.
Acts 20:25 And now, behold, I know that none of you among whom I have gone about proclaiming the kingdom will see my face again. 26 Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all, 27 for I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God. 28 Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.

I don't understand why the church and the kingdom cannot be the same thing.

 

[Interplanner]

Why do you say this verse can ONLY be an earthly kingdom?


I understand the kingdom and the church to be the same thing and its both on earth and Heaven at the same time. When I read some of the scriptures, it appears that they are interchangeable. For example:

Jesus tells Peter he will build his church on the fact that he is the Christ then the next verse he says he will give him the keys to the kingdom. I see Peter using those keys on Pentecost and letting 3,000 souls in. Those people live on earth but their citizenship is in Heaven.
Matt. 16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Paul said we are transferred to the kingdom which sounds like the body.
Col. 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Paul proclaimed the kingdom and said the elders were overseers of the church.
Acts 20:25 And now, behold, I know that none of you among whom I have gone about proclaiming the kingdom will see my face again. 26 Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all, 27 for I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God. 28 Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.

I don't understand why the church and the kingdom cannot be the same thing.

It can't for them because of 2P2P. 2P2P must be kept intact so that 'the Bible makes sense' they say.

 

[marhig]

What the Lord Jesus said here can only mean that the kingdom is in regard to an earthly kingdom:

"After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven" (Mt.6:9-10).​

In earth is in us, it's the holy spirit working within our heart. That's what Gods kingdom coming is, and once his kingdom is within our hearts, we will do his will here on earth as it's done in heaven.