ECT If MAD is False Why Did Paul Make the Distinction in Romans 4:16?

[Interplanner]

:AMR:


They surely do not. The blind running around claiming they can see. The seeing-eye dogs have glaucoma.

"At hand" meant it was ready, at that moment.

It amazes me that you think God is incapable of changing His mind if His conditions aren't met. You do know the story of Jonah and Nineveh, don't you?


The conditions are that Israel recognize the Messiah. he proof they didn't is that they were cut off and the Gentiles were brought in without the law to provoke Israel to jealousy.


One group of faith and the other of the Law. Looks like two different paths to me. Both following Jesus.

Do you know the Greek word for dispensation? The word Paul actually used?

οἰκονομία

Strong's Definition

From G3623; administration (of a household or estate); specifically a (religious) “economy”: - dispensation, stewardship.



It comes from the word οἰκονόμος meaning:

Strong's Definition

From G3624 and the base of G3551; a house distributor (that is, manager), or overseer, that is, an employee in that capacity; by extension a fiscal agent (treasurer); figuratively a preacher (of the Gospel): - chamberlain, governor, steward.



In turn coming from the words οἶκος meaning:

Strong's Definition

Of uncertain affinity; a dwelling (more or less extensive, literally or figuratively); by implication a family (more or less related, literally or figuratively): - home, house (-hold), temple.

...and νόμος meaning:


Strong's Definition

From a primary word νέμω nemō (to parcel out, especially food or grazing to animals); law (through the idea of prescriptive usage), generally (regulation), specifically (of Moses [including the volume]; also of the Gospel), or figuratively (a principle): - law.

So, dispensation essentially means "house law," or "house rules." The dispensation of grace is new house rules.






And that Scripture would be?

Or is your argument simply that He said it would be, so it must have been even though the Bible never explicitly says that it was?


You don't think God will implement a theocracy during the millenial reign of Christ?


Then exegete the passages for us and show us the agreement. Show us how they are in agreement.


Is the one baptism with water, as John baptized, or with the Spirit and fire, as John said Jesus would baptize?

If it is water then it cannot be with the Spirit and fire...

I don't know why there is such confusion about the reign of Christ. We are in it now, Col 1. The expression about the 1000 years means it is very long, not an exact number. At the end there is a disruptive harrassment of believers, ended by the swift destruction and change to the NHNE. There is nothing about anything in Israel. He is the Lord and 'son' of David already. There is nothing that needs to happen with Judaism or a Davidic theocracy.

 

[Right Divider]

I don't know why there is such confusion about the reign of Christ. We are in it now, Col 1. The expression about the 1000 years means it is very long, not an exact number. At the end there is a disruptive harrassment of believers, ended by the swift destruction and change to the NHNE. There is nothing about anything in Israel. He is the Lord and 'son' of David already. There is nothing that needs to happen with Judaism or a Davidic theocracy.

:french:

 

[Interplanner]

:french:

This is why there is no reference to Israel, Judea, David, theocracy in any NT passage in ordinary language about the 2nd coming.

 

[Right Divider]

This is why there is no reference to Israel, Judea, David, theocracy in any NT passage in ordinary language about the 2nd coming.

That's because you do not know what the NT is.

You twist every verse into a pretzel based on your completely flawed "interpret based on what you want it to mean, based on your outside anti-knowledge" system of "interp".

 

[turbosixx]

It amazes me that you think God is incapable of changing His mind if His conditions aren't met. You do know the story of Jonah and Nineveh, don't you?

God can and has changed his mind but we are told when he does so.
Ex. 32:14 So the Lord changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.
Jonah 3:10 When God saw their deeds, that they turned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them. And He did not do it.

Also, this isn’t a onetime thing like Jonah, this is prophecy from multiple writers hundreds of years prior. If the prophecies didn’t come true, how can we trust anything God tells us? I believe they were fullfilled.

The conditions are that Israel recognize the Messiah. he proof they didn't is that they were cut off and the Gentiles were brought in without the law to provoke Israel to jealousy.

What I mean by proof its conditional would be providing scripture. I know God does do things conditionally but I’m not aware of His establishing His kingdom being one of them.

They did recognize Him as the Messiah.
Jn. 12:42 Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; 43 for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.

Taking the kingdom from the Jews and giving it to the Gentiles was foreseen.
Matt. 21:42 Jesus said to them, "Did you never read in the Scriptures, 'The stone which the builders rejected, This became the chief corner stone; This came about from the Lord, And it is marvelous in our eyes'? 43 Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it.

Yes, it was to provoke them to jealousy, but what does Paul say? Save all of them or some?
Rom. 11:14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.

And that Scripture would be?
Or is your argument simply that He said it would be, so it must have been even though the Bible never explicitly says that it was?

Here is one prophecy about its establishment during the Roman Empire.
Dan. 2:44 In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever.

Before his death he said it was at hand.
Matt. 10:7 And proclaim as you go, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'

After his D,B&R, we see it being proclaimed but not as at hand or still future.
Acts 28:… From morning till evening he expounded to them, testifying to the kingdom of God and trying to convince them about Jesus both from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets…. 31 proclaiming the kingdom of God and teaching about the Lord Jesus Christ with all boldness and without hindrance.

Here in plain speech Paul said we have been added to it.
Col. 1:13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,

When Jesus was teaching the people about the kingdom, does it sound like the one you envision or does it sound like the church?

Is the one baptism with water, as John baptized, or with the Spirit and fire, as John said Jesus would baptize?
If it is water then it cannot be with the Spirit and fire...

The ONE baptism is water but it’s not John’s baptism. John was Elijah who was to prepare the way for Jesus. If you will notice, after Jesus sacrifice the purpose of baptism changed. It went from one of repentance to that of making disciples by baptizing them IN THE NAME OF JESUS.
Matt. 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit

I believe a good proof example would be when Apollos accurately taught Jesus but the bible tells us he didn’t know the proper baptism; he only knew John’s baptism.
Acts 18:25 This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he was speaking and teaching accurately the things concerning Jesus, being acquainted only with the baptism of John; 26 and he began to speak out boldly in the synagogue.

He was corrected by Priscila and Aquila. There was only one thing he was not correct about.
26…. But when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.

Right after we can then see when Paul rolls into town he discovers a problem; they hadn’t received the Holy Spirit. What does he question? Their baptism.
Acts 19:3 And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism."

He then explains John’s baptism and then baptizes them “IN THE NAME OF JESUS” just as Jesus instructed on how to make disciples..
4 Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
After he does that, then he gives them gifts of the Holy Spirit by laying of hands.

We can see a similar situation in Acts 8 where the people believed and were baptized but didn’t receive the Holy Spirit. The apostles gave them the Holy Spirit by laying of hands but they didn’t need to baptize them “in the name of Jesus” because that is how they were baptized.

The Corinthians were water baptized by Paul and other men.
Acts 18:8 Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed in the Lord, together with his entire household. And many of the Corinthians hearing Paul believed and were baptized.

So when they read 12:13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body they will see it as when they were water baptized they were baptized into the body. That’s his point in chapter 10, they were baptized into Moses when they were covered by water, in the cloud and in the sea.

Here is an example of that very thing. People being water baptized and then being added.
Acts 2:41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.
Who did the adding?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

We are in it now

Here is how the Lord Jesus told His disciples to pray:

"After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven" (Mt.6:9-10).​

If the kingdom is now on the earth then the Lord's will would be done here as it is in heaven.

If you think that His will is being done on the earth now as it is in heaven then you prove that you will believe anything, no matter how ridiculous!

 

[Lighthouse]

I don't know why there is such confusion about the reign of Christ. We are in it now, Col 1. The expression about the 1000 years means it is very long, not an exact number. At the end there is a disruptive harrassment of believers, ended by the swift destruction and change to the NHNE. There is nothing about anything in Israel. He is the Lord and 'son' of David already. There is nothing that needs to happen with Judaism or a Davidic theocracy.

Who said anything about it being Davidic? Or in Israel?

Why isn't it an exact number?

And how do you know we're in it right now?

God can and has changed his mind but we are told when he does so.
Ex. 32:14 So the Lord changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.
Jonah 3:10 When God saw their deeds, that they turned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them. And He did not do it.

Also, this isn’t a onetime thing like Jonah, this is prophecy from multiple writers hundreds of years prior. If the prophecies didn’t come true, how can we trust anything God tells us? I believe they were fullfilled.

If they were conditional on Israel accepting the Messiah, which they did not [else they would not have been cut off], and Israel didn't keep up their end, then God would not fulfill His end.

What I mean by proof its conditional would be providing scripture. I know God does do things conditionally but I’m not aware of His establishing His kingdom being one of them.

The chosen people rejected the Messiah. Do you really think God would fulfill His promises to them after that?

They did recognize Him as the Messiah.
Jn. 12:42 Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; 43 for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.

They didn't even make up a majority, fool. You can't seriously be that ignorant.

Taking the kingdom from the Jews and giving it to the Gentiles was foreseen.
Matt. 21:42 Jesus said to them, "Did you never read in the Scriptures, 'The stone which the builders rejected, This became the chief corner stone; This came about from the Lord, And it is marvelous in our eyes'? 43 Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it.

But only if Israel did not produce that fruit. The parable of the fig tree as a reminder of that promise.

Yes, it was to provoke them to jealousy, but what does Paul say? Save all of them or some?
Rom. 11:14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.

Because not all of them would be saved, just like not all Gentiles.

Here is one prophecy about its establishment during the Roman Empire.
Dan. 2:44 In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever.

What kings? I think you're missing some context here if you want to support your argument.

Before his death he said it was at hand.
Matt. 10:7 And proclaim as you go, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'

He didn't say it was near, or nigh. He said it was "at hand." Which means that it was ready. The problem is that they weren't.

After his D,B&R, we see it being proclaimed but not as at hand or still future.
Acts 28:… From morning till evening he expounded to them, testifying to the kingdom of God and trying to convince them about Jesus both from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets…. 31 proclaiming the kingdom of God and teaching about the Lord Jesus Christ with all boldness and without hindrance.

What verse is that?

Here in plain speech Paul said we have been added to it.
Col. 1:13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,

Still not established on Earth.

Hello, McFly!

When Jesus was teaching the people about the kingdom, does it sound like the one you envision or does it sound like the church?

Do you have an example?

The ONE baptism is water but it’s not John’s baptism.

So it's not with the Spirit and fire?

John was Elijah who was to prepare the way for Jesus. If you will notice, after Jesus sacrifice the purpose of baptism changed. It went from one of repentance to that of making disciples by baptizing them IN THE NAME OF JESUS.
Matt. 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit

According to Peter in Acts 2:38 it's still about repentance.

I believe a good proof example would be when Apollos accurately taught Jesus but the bible tells us he didn’t know the proper baptism; he only knew John’s baptism.
Acts 18:25 This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he was speaking and teaching accurately the things concerning Jesus, being acquainted only with the baptism of John; 26 and he began to speak out boldly in the synagogue.

So he only knew water.

He was corrected by Priscila and Aquila. There was only one thing he was not correct about.
26…. But when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.

Are you sure that was the only thing?

Right after we can then see when Paul rolls into town he discovers a problem; they hadn’t received the Holy Spirit. What does he question? Their baptism.
Acts 19:3 And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism."

Water.

He then explains John’s baptism and then baptizes them “IN THE NAME OF JESUS” just as Jesus instructed on how to make disciples..
4 Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
After he does that, then he gives them gifts of the Holy Spirit by laying of hands.

After? Are you sure it wasn't the same act?

And why did Cornelius' family receive the Spirit before water baptism?

We can see a similar situation in Acts 8 where the people believed and were baptized but didn’t receive the Holy Spirit. The apostles gave them the Holy Spirit by laying of hands but they didn’t need to baptize them “in the name of Jesus” because that is how they were baptized.

That was before Paul.:dunce::duh:

The Corinthians were water baptized by Paul and other men.
Acts 18:8 Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed in the Lord, together with his entire household. And many of the Corinthians hearing Paul believed and were baptized.

Are you sure it was water? And if so, so what?

So when they read 12:13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body they will see it as when they were water baptized they were baptized into the body. That’s his point in chapter 10, they were baptized into Moses when they were covered by water, in the cloud and in the sea.

And your evidence is?

Here is an example of that very thing. People being water baptized and then being added.
Acts 2:41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.
Who did the adding?

This is before Paul.

And who even said Jesus was talking about water when He gave the Great Commission?

What a pinhead. You.

Who?

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
teehee!

But seriously, where do we find in the OT law where the rite of baptism is done in the manner John was baptizing?

We do find washings done in the OT for purification, usually done with water and blood.
But there is never any mention of blood with John's baptism in any of the verses concerning it.
So what examples of the law do we have with baptism of water only that can take away sins for the general population and not just for a particular cleansing (such as touching the dead and menstruation of females, etc.)?
John seems to be inviting anyone and everyone to be baptized.

Newbie :chuckle:

I see Sarah.

Genesis 18:12
Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?


1 Peter 3:5
For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:

 

[turbosixx]

That was before Paul.:dunce::duh:

Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

 

[Right Divider]

Here is how the Lord Jesus told His disciples to pray:

"After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven" (Mt.6:9-10).​

If the kingdom is now on the earth then the Lord's will would be done here as it is in heaven.

If you think that His will is being done on the earth now as it is in heaven then you prove that you will believe anything, no matter how ridiculous!

The "interp" has driven him mad.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

What I mean by proof its conditional would be providing scripture. I know God does do things conditionally but I’m not aware of His establishing His kingdom being one of them.

Here Peter speaks to the nation of Israel and he gives that condition:

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, that the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began" (Acts 3:19-21).​

The "restitution of all things" includes restoring the kingdom to Israel. The Apostles were with the resurrected Lord Jesus for forty days while He tutored them on the things about the kingdom. after that they knew that the kingdom would be restored to Israel but they didn't know when it would happen:

"When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?" (Acts 1:6).​

The Lord did not tell them that they were wrong for thinking that the kingdom would be restored to Israel and only told them that they were not to know when it would happen.

So according to Peter the condition for an ushering in of the kingdom was that the nation of Israel should repent and be converted. And since that nation did not repent then the bringing in of the kingdom has been postponed until the return of the Lord Jesus to the earth (Lk.21:27-31).

 

[Right Divider]

Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

Always the false accusations from the silly section.

You just don't like the revelation that God gave to Paul.

You're stuck in the past, trying to be a wannabe Israelite.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Here is how the Lord Jesus told His disciples to pray:

"After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven" (Mt.6:9-10).​

If the kingdom is now on the earth then the Lord's will would be done here as it is in heaven.

If you think that His will is being done on the earth now as it is in heaven then you prove that you will believe anything, no matter how ridiculous!

That verse says "in" the earth not on.

 

[turbosixx]

You just don't like the revelation that God gave to Paul.

You're stuck in the past, trying to be a wannabe Israelite.

This is revelation from Paul.
Phil. 3:2 Look out for the dogs, look out for the evildoers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh. 3 For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh—
Gal. 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

Isn't this what makes someone an Israelite?

 

[marhig]

Here is how the Lord Jesus told His disciples to pray:

"After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven" (Mt.6:9-10).​

If the kingdom is now on the earth then the Lord's will would be done here as it is in heaven.

If you think that His will is being done on the earth now as it is in heaven then you prove that you will believe anything, no matter how ridiculous!

Firstly it's a daily prayer, so we are asking for Gods kingdom to come every day, and we are asking for his kingdom to come in earth, not on earth. We are the earth and once receive Gods kingdom which is his word within, through Christ by the holy spirit, then we will (if we obey God) do Gods will here on earth as it is done in heaven.

 

[Right Divider]

This is revelation from Paul.
Phil. 3:2 Look out for the dogs, look out for the evildoers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh. 3 For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh—
Gal. 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

Isn't this what makes someone an Israelite?

No, it does not.

Paul is using an ANALOGY. You really need to learn about language and the use of idiomatic expressions.

Does this first verse mean that Paul is telling them to watch out for dog bites?

 

[turbosixx]

No, it does not.

Paul is using an ANALOGY. You really need to learn about language and the use of idiomatic expressions.

Does this first verse mean that Paul is telling them to watch out for dog bites?

What does he mean by the analogy?

I understand the usage.
(figuratively) a spiritual predator who feeds off others.

Are you saying someone being a child of Abraham and circumcised doesn't make them an Israelite?

 

[Right Divider]

What does he mean by the analogy?

I understand the usage.
(figuratively) a spiritual predator who feeds off others.

Are you saying someone being a child of Abraham and circumcised doesn't make them an Israelite?

One must be a descendant of Jacob to be an Israelite.

Rom 9:1-5 (AKJV/PCE)​

(9:1) I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, (9:2) That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. (9:3) For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: (9:4) Who are Israelites; to whom [pertaineth] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service [of God], and the promises; (9:5) Whose [are] the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ [came], who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. ​

AMEN indeed.

 

[turbosixx]

One must be a descendant of Jacob to be an Israelite.

Rom 9:1-5 (AKJV/PCE)​

(9:1) I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, (9:2) That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. (9:3) For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: (9:4) Who are Israelites; to whom [pertaineth] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service [of God], and the promises; (9:5) Whose [are] the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ [came], who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. ​

AMEN indeed.

That doesn't say descendant of Jacob, it just says who are Israelites. I know Jacob was named Israel but if we read further we can get more insight on who really is an Israelite.

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,

 

[turbosixx]

They did recognize Him as the Messiah.
Jn. 12:42 Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; 43 for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.

They didn't even make up a majority, fool. You can't seriously be that ignorant.

Here are a few more.
Jn. 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many believed in his name when they saw the signs that he was doing.

4:41 And many more believed because of his word.

8:30 As he was saying these things, many believed in him.

10:42 And many believed in him there.

11:45 Many of the Jews therefore, who had come with Mary and had seen what he did, believed in him,


The reason he was killed is because people were believing in Him.
Jn. 11:48 If we let him go on like this, everyone will believe in him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation."