ECT If MAD is False Why Did Paul Make the Distinction in Romans 4:16?

turbosixx

New member
Please answer my question here:

After spending forty days with the Lord while He taught them about the kingdom they knew that the kingdom would be restored to Israel.

Are you under the impression that the Apostles were in error?

Thanks!

I'll answer with a question. Do you really want to base your understanding on the perceptions of men? For example:

Jesus kept telling the apostles that he would be killed and raised the third day but did they really understand it.
Matt. 16:15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
16:21 From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised.

The third day comes and they are told he is risen, did they believe it.
Lk. 24:6 9 and returning from the tomb they told all these things to the eleven and to all the rest. 10 Now it was Mary Magdalene and Joanna and Mary the mother of James and the other women with them who told these things to the apostles, 11 but these words seemed to them an idle tale, and they did not believe them.

I don't see the apostles really understanding what they are told until they see it with their own eyes. Also, what they tell us is from the Holy Spirit so it's not what they understand but it's the real Truth.

If Jesus didn't establish the new covenant as Hebrews shows, then the Jews are still under the law of Moses. If he has, then he is their High Priest and they must follow him.

I look forward to your comments.
 
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turbosixx

New member
There was the nation of Israel - physical descendents of Jacob.

The majority of their nation of which were in apostasy: who were not living in faithful obedience to the God of their fathers.

That was Unbelieving Israel.

They were the Israel that was not Israel - that was not the (desired) Israel of God.

They were "a gainsaying people."

But also within their nation were those who were faithful to the God of their fathers.

They were "a nation" within their nation: the Believing remnant of Israel.

They were the Israel that was...the (desired) Israel of God.

Both Israels (physical descendents of Jacob) are described in passages like the following...

Romans 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

10:21's "But to Israel he saith" is similar to Paul's intended sense in Romans 2:17's "Behold thou art called a Jew..."

In other words, it is a put down in the same manner as the following...

Matthew 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

Here are those two Israel's again...

Unbelieving Israel...

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Israel's Believing Remnant...

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

I agree with that.

Here's what I'm trying to understand about unbelieving Israel. Since the Messiah showed up and didn't set up the kingdom that was prophesied and if they're still God's people, what are their options?
 

Danoh

New member
I agree with that.

Here's what I'm trying to understand about unbelieving Israel. Since the Messiah showed up and didn't set up the kingdom that was prophesied and if they're still God's people, what are their options?

That's the thing. During this Mystery Age they are NOT His people.

Neither as a nation nor as individuals.

Not during this age.

This age began with their status being as described in the following passages.
.
A warning Unbelieving Israel failed to heed....

Matthew 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Even earlier, the Lord had told the Twelve....

Matthew 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. 10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues; 10:18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles. 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you. 10:21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

You see that? It would be the Spirit that would be speaking through them.

Early Acts begins to describe their persecution at the hands of Unbelieving Israel in their resistence of the Spirit, just as the Lord had told them.

Six chapters into it we read....

Acts 6:8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people. 6:9 Then there arose certain of the synagogue, which is called the synagogue of the Libertines, and Cyrenians, and Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and of Asia, disputing with Stephen. 6:10 And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spake. 6:11 Then they suborned men, which said, We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses, and against God. 6:12 And they stirred up the people, and the elders, and the scribes, and came upon him, and caught him, and brought him to the council, 6:13 And set up false witnesses, which said, This man ceaseth not to speak blasphemous words against this holy place, and the law: 6:14 For we have heard him say, that this Jesus of Nazareth shall destroy this place, and shall change the customs which Moses delivered us. 6:15 And all that sat in the council, looking stedfastly on him, saw his face as it had been the face of an angel.

Who's Word were they really resisting? Who were they really slandering?

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it. 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

In their failure to believe the Law of Moses the Spirit's Words to them through Stephen are based on, they resist the Spirit just as their fathers had before them.

They have been concluded having continued in the UNCircumcision of heart of their forefathers.

Paul will say more on this in Romans 2, etc.

And Stephen sees the Lord NOT sitting BUT standing.

Meaning?

Isaiah 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

Isaiah 14:22 For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.

Isaiah 28:21 For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.

Isaiah 33:10 Now will I rise, saith the LORD; now will I be exalted; now will I lift up myself.

Israel was now headed toward the Day of the LORD - IN - HIS - WRATH - PRIOR - TO - HIS - MERCY - UNTO - THEM.

Isaiah 59:13 In transgressing and lying against the LORD, and departing away from our God, speaking oppression and revolt, conceiving and uttering from the heart words of falsehood. 59:14 And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter. 59:15 Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment. 59:16 And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him. 59:17 For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloak. 59:18 According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence. 59:19 So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him. 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD. 59:21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

As Paul wrote...

Romans 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written. 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

Unbelieving Israel was concluded in UNCircumcision - in other words "under sin" with the Gentiles.

But instead of His having allowed that to continue its' Prophesied course, we read....

Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

In short, with that, any Jew wanting salvation this side of God's having sealed their nation's Believing remnant, and concluding the rest in UnBelief or spiritual UNCircumcision, now had to come to Him as Gentile through Paul's "gospel of the uncircumcision."

Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Galatians 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

As you can see, these things take more than a passage or two as to what's what.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
turbosixx,

I asked you:

Are you under the impression that the Apostles were in error?

Here is what you said:

I'll answer with a question. Do you really want to base your understanding on the perceptions of men?

My ideas are not just based on the perception of men but instead on the response of the Lord Jesus here:

"When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power"
(Acts 1:6-7).​

First of all, notice that He did not tell them they were wrong fr expecting that the kingdom would be restored to Israel.

And secondly, it is evident that He was telling them that they were not to know when it would happen. If the restoring of the kingdom to Israel is never going to happen it would make absolutely no sense for the Lord to tell His Apostles that they were not to know when it will happen.

So based on what the Apostles said and the Lord's response to what they said I can only conclude that they were right for expecting that the kingdom will be restored to Israel.

Do you still think that they were in error? If you are then tell me why the Lord would not tell them that they were in error and why He would tell them that they were not to know the time when it would happen.

Thanks!
 

turbosixx

New member
Jerry Shugart;4883973 My ideas are not just based on the perception of men but instead on the response of the Lord Jesus here: [INDENT said:

"When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power"
(Acts 1:6-7).[/INDENT]

First of all, notice that He did not tell them they were wrong fr expecting that the kingdom would be restored to Israel.

And secondly, it is evident that He was telling them that they were not to know when it would happen. If the restoring of the kingdom to Israel is never going to happen it would make absolutely no sense for the Lord to tell His Apostles that they were not to know when it will happen.

So based on what the Apostles said and the Lord's response to what they said I can only conclude that they were right for expecting that the kingdom will be restored to Israel.

Do you still think that they were in error? If you are then tell me why the Lord would not tell them that they were in error and why He would tell them that they were not to know the time when it would happen.

Thanks!

They were not in error. The restoration of Israel was going to happen but not as they imagined.

I believe he didn’t explain it to them because he was done explaining and in just a few days they would have all the answers they needed. The next verse tells us that.
Acts 1:7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."
The Holy Spirit was to guide them into all truth.
Jn. 16:12 "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth,


You made the comment that after spending 40 days with the Lord he taught them about the kingdom. I would suggest he taught them about the kingdom the entire time he was with them.
Mk. 4:11 And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables,

It started with John. He was Elijah that was to prepare the way.
Matt. 3:1 In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea, 2 "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

Then Jesus,
Lk. 4:43 but he said to them, "I must preach the good news of the kingdom of God to the other towns as well; for I was sent for this purpose."
Lk. 17:20 Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, "The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed,

Consider this, the apostle Paul also proclaimed the kingdom.
Acts 20:25 And now, behold, I know that none of you among whom I have gone about proclaiming the kingdom will see my face again.
Acts 28:23 When they had appointed a day for him, they came to him at his lodging in greater numbers. From morning till evening he expounded to them, testifying to the kingdom of God and trying to convince them about Jesus both from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets.

What did Paul proclaim and testify about the kingdom?
 

turbosixx

New member
That's the thing. During this Mystery Age they are NOT His people.

Neither as a nation nor as individuals.

Not during this age.

Thanks for the write up.

That's the way I understand it as well. During this dispensation Christians are God's people. If you think about it, Christians have now been God's people about as long as the Jews were in the prior dispensation.

What did God do with the unbelieving portion of Israel in the past? He would purge the unbelievers and the remnant would go forward. I believe that is what he has done with the gospel. In Christ the believing remnant who were under the law can now be made sons through the gospel.

Gal. 4:1 I mean that the heir, as long as he is a child, is no different from a slave, though he is the owner of everything, 2 but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by his father. 3 In the same way we also, when we were children, were enslaved to the elementary principles of the world. 4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. 6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" 7 So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God.
 

turbosixx

New member
This is where you're missing it. The are currently not God's people. They will be again when God restores them to that position. See Romans 11.

I agree they're not currently God's people. The only way I see their restoration is through Christ. Just as in the old days, only the believing remnant of Israel goes forward.

Rm. 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
"The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";
27 "and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."


Isn't this speaking about Jesus and the gospel?
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
I agree they're not currently God's people. The only way I see their restoration is through Christ. Just as in the old days, only the believing remnant of Israel goes forward.

Rm. 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
"The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";
27 "and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."


Isn't this speaking about Jesus and the gospel?


Of course, but RD believes in 2P2P. That is the belief that there is another program operating no matter what the NT says and so some promises to the ethne Israel have to happen for completely different reasons than Christ and the Gospel. Or you have to believe the Bible is divided or schitzophrenic. That kind of dividing is what he thinks "rightly dividing" is. Never mind the fact that that passage is about administering certain problems in the church about widows and single mothers and should be translated 'proper handling.'
 

Right Divider

Body part
I agree they're not currently God's people. The only way I see their restoration is through Christ. Just as in the old days, only the believing remnant of Israel goes forward.

Rm. 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
"The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";
27 "and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."


Isn't this speaking about Jesus and the gospel?
Which gospel?

See, again this is the problem. There are many gospels which are ALL rooted in what God is doing through Jesus Christ. That does NOT mean that they are all identical. To believe that they are all identical is simply contrived confusion.

Rom 11:26-27 (AKJV/PCE)
(11:26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: (11:27) For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Do you notice how Paul still makes it future tense? What Paul it talking about there is specifically for the nation of Israel in the future.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Which gospel?

See, again this is the problem. There are many gospels which are ALL rooted in what God is doing through Jesus Christ. That does NOT mean that they are all identical. To believe that they are all identical is simply contrived confusion.

Rom 11:26-27 (AKJV/PCE)
(11:26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: (11:27) For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Do you notice how Paul still makes it future tense? What Paul it talking about there is specifically for the nation of Israel in the future.


No, the Hebrew was future tense because it was Isaiah's future now fulfilled in Paul's time. This is the fundamental error of 2P2P just about everytime it touches the OT. Every OT passage to them is ABOUT US NOW IN THE 21ST CENTURY.

There is one Gospel, Lord, faith, baptism, body etc.
 

Right Divider

Body part
Of course, but RD believes in 2P2P. That is the belief that there is another program operating no matter what the NT says and so some promises to the ethne Israel have to happen for completely different reasons than Christ and the Gospel. Or you have to believe the Bible is divided or schitzophrenic. That kind of dividing is what he thinks "rightly dividing" is. Never mind the fact that that passage is about administering certain problems in the church about widows and single mothers and should be translated 'proper handling.'

No, the Hebrew was future tense because it was Isaiah's future now fulfilled in Paul's time. This is the fundamental error of 2P2P just about everytime it touches the OT. Every OT passage to them is ABOUT US NOW IN THE 21ST CENTURY.

There is one Gospel, Lord, faith, baptism, body etc.
You're as clueless as ever. I don't care to read your continued baseless opinions repeated ad nauseam.
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame
What if someone was alone on a desert island, with no one to water baptize them. But yet they placed their faith in Christ and repented.

What if someone were taught and believed that water baptism was unnecessary and yet gave Christ of their undying devotion?

He will judge the hearts of men. Not you or I.
I'm not arguing that baptism is necessary. I'm asking that question of those who believe it is.

Why was Christ baptized? He said to fulfill all righteousness. He nor Paul were against ceremonious righteous acts. But both were crystal clear the acts in themselves mean nothing. Only our hearts devotion in truth that He will judge.

Everyone is saved by grace.
And yet what almost happened to Abraham when his son wasn't circumcised?
 

Jamie Gigliotti

New member
I'm not arguing that baptism is necessary. I'm asking that question of those who believe it is.


And yet what almost happened to Abraham when his son wasn't circumcised?

The point being baptism is a good thing to do, but not an absolute.

Regarding Abraham... Christ changed everything for everyone.

"Then Peter began to speak, "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism, but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right." Acts 10:34-35
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame
The point being baptism is a good thing to do, but not an absolute.
I agree.

Regarding Abraham... Christ changed everything for everyone.
Irrelevant if the issue regards B.C.

"Then Peter began to speak, "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism, but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right." Acts 10:34-35
And what does it mean to work righteousness?
 
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