How can God resurrect us if we do not have an immortal soul?
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Lon
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Same with Luke 16:19-31
I don't reckon I'll debate with our Lord Jesus Christ:
Mark 12:26And regarding the dead rising, have you not read about the burning bush in the book of Moses, how God told him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” You are badly mistaken! 28
way 2 go
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Lon
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:up:
you are hilarious.:BRAVO:
glorydaz
Well-known member
Says the dead man walking.
God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. The living never die.
Get LIFE boys and girls. You ain't there yet.
Lon
Well-known member
Acts 11:26 Acts 15:20 :think:
Ephesians 2:8-10 :think:
Imho? Confusion. Glory Daze does a nice job explaining where OT saints were alive. I suppose an accusation of 'cult' keeps it from being scriptural, but you didn't have to return the favor. Scripture is the more important but at least, I guess, it shows where you are coming from. I try to go scripture first. We generally all know where we've come from regarding who is who. Posturing over who is more biblical? Of course. Par.
Er, and Satan believe in God. James 2:19 Doesn't mean anything. It is just pulling out coincidence and 'guilty by association' fallacy, right?
So they had souls, but now don't? Would they have surely died even without the tree? Did they after? How were they alive? How were they dead afterwards? :think:
:think:
:think: "Scripture....or cult taught" "Scripture....or cult taught" :think:
Wait
are you saying you ARE in a cult? I suppose that goes without saying if you aren't Catholic or Reformed (or Protestant?)?Yeah, I'm not finding a knee-jerk reaction to Catholics AND Protestants a 'good' reaction. Tends to be WAY out of balance whenever I've seen it, and unfortunately (I don't believe in luck), it tends to keep a 'cult' member from thinking clearly themselves. They display the same EXACT unreliable knee-jerk response they are accusing of. In this case, your 3 fingers DEFINITELY point back. Now I realize again, that 'cult' tends to set off one in-a-cult to a defense mode, but I'm WAY more concerned about what is biblical rather than which group should be eschewed for what. I don't run away from Catholics for instance. I'm at least 80% in agreement with them. Cults? Maybe 60% but it is better than nothing. Whenever I'm in a cult thread (like here where the subject isn't the orthodox line), I try to focus on the scriptures. The posturing? Well Okay. I guess I'm somewhat defensive because in among Glory and Way 2, you've implicated the rest of us as well. I'm not really bothered nor give much credence, but I can sufficiently AND scripturally defend my position. I'd hope, after all, that would be why such a topic would be raised. It is always the proverbial gauntlet or glove slap. I'm one of those 'most' people, but I am so prideful, I think I can run circles, scripturally, around most. There, we've both been arrogant
lain: John 15:15 Precedent? Why or why not? :think:
Or an enemy even! :noway: As I said, I'm always working on my own need for humility. This post? Didn't help. Posturing over my academic prowess and I.Q. just alienates the dummies and even some who are close
iouae
Well-known member
Wait
I'm one of those 'most' people, but I am so prideful, I think I can run circles, scripturally, around most. There, we've both been arrogant
John 15:15 Precedent? Why or why not? :think:
Or an enemy even! :noway: As I said, I'm always working on my own need for humility. This post? Didn't help. Posturing over my academic prowess and I.Q. just alienates the dummies and even some who are close
Lon, folks must not hide in orthodoxy and shout "cult". I have a God-given good nose for bad doctrine, and orthodoxy reeks.
Lon
Well-known member
I've a nose for it too. For the most part, some heresies are worse than others. This one? I've seen Catholics who believe we 'soul-sleep.' Lazarus, but example was 'asleep.'
My view on this is among the minority, so I know what 'cult' looks like. Whether these are issues of salvation or not is important. To me, it seems the Lord Jesus Christ corrected the Sadducees on this. The Pharisees get all the attention, but the Sadducees aren't counted out among needs to be corrected. "God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" throws a wrench in "God was the God of them...while they were alive...and will be again." It is worth, I think, wading through mine and Glory's take. Now realize, we both know we are in a minority view on this, but I yet think it within an 'orthodox' view and allowable. I will say that it is eschewed by some so I my ONLY wish is for one to look at it with me and see if it is biblical (holds up under biblical scrutiny). I think it does. If it ever is shown to be completely wrong, I'll take a reprimand and correction. If this part of the discussion doesn't come out with Glory, perhaps I'll post but I like to see another who thinks along the same line, to describe what I'm also seeing. 1) because they might do it better than me and 2) because they might have a few other verses in mind that I've never thought of. I'll leave it there, but I think the first part of this would need to allow that we still live after we die, or it isn't a conversation starter out of the gate.
For me, I think it side tracks your thread a bit, but I yet believe it worth the look because then a person can at least see the strengths and weaknesses, biblically, of the alternative view. :e4e: -Lon
iouae
Well-known member
Lon, I have not met a Sadducee on this thread who does not believe in life after death. The Devil is in the detail.
I believe in life after death...
1) for Jesus friends only (the incorrigibly wicked are raised as mortals, judged, and instantly burnt UP.
2) soul sleep follows death.
3) we are unconscious till Jesus returns, and the trumpet sounds, and the (good) dead are raised incorruptible, and Jesus' friends rise to meet Him in the air.
4) we are given a spirit body then
5) there is no immortal/spiritual component to man. When dead, we are, like Rover, dead all over.
6) Paganism added the immortal soul doctrine to Christianity, which came directly from Satan's lie "thou shalt not surely die" - because you have an immortal soul.
7) there is no ever-burning hell because there is no indestructible component to man. The gift of God is eternal life and a spirit body to match. Ordinary, unsaved humans combust in seconds.
8) because there is no immortal soul, no part of you lingers around to haunt houses as pagan societies believe. This is a demonic deception, to pretend to be a departed human. It is the most common demonic deception, to impersonate the dead, or foster the myth that the dead are not really dead. All pagan societies have this myth.
And much more... which probably got said in the 250 posts somewhere along this thread.
Lon
Well-known member
Scriptures would help. Someone has to be able to follow the propositions through scriptures.
Here are two posts that start to spell it out. Note that indeed, the position of a soul that does not live on, is from JW's and a few other cults, though, as I said, I've seen soul-sleep preached in the RC as well:
Spoiler
is Lazarus the only one carried by angels into Abraham’s bosom? How many angels can fit
yes is where the Originator of nature resides
naturally
of course as He created them too and they interact for Him
well actually yes...a good counter to what is NOT His and will be destroyed when that point is made final
yes also created for Satan his angels death and hell itself will be throw in...and like Samuel was dedicated to the service of the temple FOREVER...so too will that fire burn...until it is burnt up...the consequences of which are indeed eternal...NO MORE
not ours and from the One Who created nature itself...what is to be natural...naturally
right...its a continuation of a folk tale...developed into Jewish myth and legend supported extra biblically and a model for purgatory...also not biblical...
Jews made for themselves idols and gave themselves “Holy”daze (Purim) and developed their own laws and traditions...no surprise they fell into disfavor...
appearing to talk is not talking and in visions many things can appear and well are not...”tell no one this vision” was said by Him NOT “tell no one this event occurrence” nor a transcript of the conversations He had with them...
so witches CAN call up the dead at their will...even men of God? Or were real apparitions false betrayals and as abominable as a calf being Yahweh...is why the prohibition to images is two fold 1) dont make one 2) dont believe in one being real
but His “light” does not replace our need for sun fire electricity...
but He did not produce fruit nor was rooted to the ground as one etc
but it did not flow from Him no one drank of it and everyone died the first death
but no one ate His flesh as he walked about and no one ate and lived forever...
but it was not just one person who lost and found a coin
but no one has had their wool sheared
but they are ALL of HIM and will return once the body is destroyed and they are NO MORE
I am saying He used a parable to make different moral teaching unrelated to documenting the after life...
if I would use the story of Santa Clause to prove the need for clean chimneys at every residence that does not mean there is a man in a red suit lives in North Pole and once a year flies around to every home and comes down the chimney...
Letting Lazarus lay in Abraham’s bosom for four days and then yanking him back to this life its chores and jobs, bills, pains and hassle seems not friendly...or heaven forbid allowing poor Lazarus to be tormented by magical flames
indeed...but why? WHY AT ALL? when the way is already paved...live go to jewish purgatory do your time for your crime...advance to Abraham’s bosom...
Being seperated from Him forever is punishment...being destroyed is exactly that...and forever
We were rescued from annihilation from that NOTHINGNESS by His love mercy and grace when we were first born...and then rescued again BY the same FROM the same when RE-born...
“Mat 22:28 (KJV) Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
Mat 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
Mat 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
Mark 12:23 (KJV) In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife.
Mark 12:24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
Mark 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
Mark 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
Mark 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
Luke 20:34 (KJV) And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
Luke 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
Luke 20:37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses showed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
Luke 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.”
So a better context then reveals He is answering the Sadducees who did not believe in a resurrection AT ALL...
He speaks of the day when the dead will rise not return to pick up their physical bodies...
“FOR WHEN THEY SHALL RISE FROM THE DEAD” they shall not marry but be like angels”...when is that? Hint: at the Resurrection.
And of course being a God of the living...the dead knowing NOTHING and UNABLE to worship
Your desire for them to live forever tormented EXACTLY counters this.
In your idolatrous belief, by Whose authority are the dead in hell...by HIS and HIS alone...having been judged by Him and judged by His Law...they are confined there sentenced by HIM and to their eternal torment by HIM HIS DIVINE authority...thus He IS the God of the dead...the tormented dead
LOL...He didnt go to paradise that day...in fact yours claim He went to hell...and two days later He still hadn’t gone to heaven...when Mary recognized Him she clung to Him and He said dont “for I have not yet ascended to my Father” He was about to though...poor repentant thief had to wait...still does...for to be resurrected
And everyone He said it to died...obviously He was speaking of the other death...eternal DEATH...not eternal torment...
That would mean He would have to say “everyone who believes in me shall never beg Abraham for water on their tongues”
Again we were created mortal never immortal and dependent on the tree of LIFE...
There is no tree of life in hell...but apparently water can be brought in...
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Lon
Well-known member
:chuckle: You think I'll abandon scripture just because you use the word 'idolatrous.' :chuckle:
No. Reread the verse: "God IS the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." All you did was danced around it, NEVER touched it. "IF" you are going to prove my idea is idolatrous and NOT scripture, you are going to have to do MUCH better than this. A lame accusation of idolatry? :nono: Scriptures that didn't handle what Jesus said? :nono:
One more point. If you are going to engage me, you better know your bible VERY well. I'm only interested in it and know it rather well.
Lon
Well-known member
:nono: ASK him what he believes about paradise (NOT heaven). Ask. Between us, the whole way we see the places of death in the scriptures is very different. SEE if his and Glory Days is plausible. Again, you are going to have to know your bible very well, not JUST your own doctrine. It will be worth the effort, even if you don't wind up agreeing with everything because their view (and mine) makes sense and I think, honor the scriptures. Like your view, I'd admit this is a minority view as well, but it is gaining ground among believers and I think was the original intent. On top of that, it isn't Catholic so that much might be attractive to you.
Not so obvious, again, ask.
Just as paradise was not heaven, hades is not the lake of fire. Remember the hades being thrown into the lake of fire in Revelation?
Again, ask. You may not agree, but I think you'll find it interesting to ask.
The torment was there. It doesn't mean water was. Whichever way you see it, 1) God IS the God of the living and 2) Abraham is depicted alive, despite not having a body. So much so that the Jews called those who were the Lord's and died, the "Bosom of Abraham."
iouae
Well-known member
The 7 men have had her and died, yet their resurrection is still future in the description.
It is clear from the Sadducee storyteller, that the standard Jewish view was that all men would rise together with her AT SOME TIME IN THE FUTURE and squabble about who is her husband.
Throw in Ezekiel 37 which shows all past Israelites rising together at one time, given mortal bodies, and this supports the argument.
The Worldwide Church of God (WCG) has an interesting theory about Ezekiel 37. They say that all Israelites who never had a chance to know the Lord (and I add to that all dead and ancient Gentiles like Sodom, Nineveh, the Chinese) will be resurrected some time after Christ's return, given mortal bodies, and given their one-and-only chance at salvation - they say after the millennium, before Satan released. I find this doctrine very attractive since every human is then given a chance to know the Lord.
Rev 20:5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
Same resurrection as that described in Ezekiel 37.
If one wants gems of truth, go mining in the smaller cults. You find a lot of worthless ore, but many nuggets too.
They (the WCG) are the only group which addresses the unfairness of being born at a time and place where nobody heard of Christ - saying these will get a shot at salvation.
The Adventists quote Romans 2:14-16 saying Gentiles will be judged by their consciences. This is such a load of crock from Ellen White, because it says one does not need Jesus to be saved, there are many gates. And this from folks fanatical about keeping their own rigid doctrines to gain salvation.
I once wrote on an Adventist forum it would be better to not be an Adventist/Christian and take your chances on being judged by your conscience, than the much stricter Adventist rules.
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Lon
Well-known member
Lon, I put my beliefs in point form so that if we were to discuss this, you could tell me which points you agree and disagree with, so that we don't have to play 20 questions
Well, that's fine then :up:
For me a few disagreements: 1) There was a 'holding' place Sheol that held two sides: Paradise/Hades. When Jesus died, He went to the Paradise side (bosom of Abraham). 2) The second side, hades, is where the wicked are and it still exists, later to be thrown into the lake of fire. Can a fire destroy a person who is not physical? We disagree on this too. The scripture discussion is the most important part of the discussion. As I said, my (and others on TOL) view isn't the majority view either, but it is closer.
Again, for me, the Sadducee and Pharisee disagreement that I believe the Lord Jesus Christ put to rest.
Samuel wasn't unconscious when Saul called him. Moses wasn't unconscious when he visited the Lord Jesus Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration. Matthew 17:3 The rich ruler wasn't unconscious when speaking to Abraham. :think:
Seems bound in physical constructs and constraints to me. Scriptures? :think: (disagree but am willing to look at scriptures)
Genesis 1:27? Jehovah Witnesses believe this. Have you been affiliated or under their teaching?
No, certainly not the source of the Christian doctrine. Rather, there are sufficient scriptures. While you may cry 'parable foul' there are a good many scriptures that refute pagan origins. I don't see that as a viable view. Such tend to be conspiracy theories and are designed to marginalize 'guilty by association.' To me? Gossip and unworthy of God's people. We need to be careful about wild accusations. We have enough disagreement over the scriptures themselves without having to drag in vitriol and marginalizing rhetoric.
Again, disagree and upon scriptures. Even in this, if as you say, they would have been born dead already, even in a perfect state :noway: You might be able to disseminate that, but a first glance makes it seem like an illogical conclusion. Genesis 3:1-3
If the theory were to hold up, I can see where you are coming from, but as it sets, we need to discuss scriptures before conclusions.
A few exceptions: It really was Samuel who came to Saul, for instance. The saints from Paradise, upon leaving there on their way to Heaven with Jesus, were seen.
That's fine. One at a time as you desire. :e4e:
I am not church of God, but this is close to what I believe. I've posted something similar I wrote on TOL a few years ago, but am not finding it