How can God resurrect us if we do not have an immortal soul?
- Thread starter iouae
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iouae
Well-known member
So??
Ecc 3:21 Who knows whether the spirit/BREATH of man goes upward and the spirit/BREATH of the beast goes down into the earth?
Solomon has just told you they have the same spirit/BREATH...
Ecc 3:19 For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity.
iouae
Well-known member
Saul went to a woman with a "familiar spirit". THAT'S telling you its a demon.
Lev 20:27
A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.
1Sa 28:7
Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
Demon possessed folks I have witnessed, experience a change of personality and voice. The woman is no doubt doing the speaking on behalf of "Samuel". And she is the only one seeing what looks like "gods". That is another term for demons.
1Sa 28:13
¶
And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
So here we have two bits of evidence, if the woman is not lying.
She has a familiar spirit (demon) and she saw "gods"/demon(s) ascending out of the earth - which she alone made these "gods" out to be Samuel. Mediums too have no clue as to doctrinal truth or error. She herself could believe the dead are alive. She may herself mistake demons for departed souls.
Demon possessed folks I have witnessed see things that are invisible (visions) but they are as real to them as reality is to us. They will swear they saw it, because they did see it - but that does not make it real. It could be a deception - like a fiction movie playing in their heads. I know folks who have had demonic visions and they believe utter lies for the rest of their lives.
And demonic visions may contain a mixture of truth and error. We are not smart enough to tell which is which. Which is why we avoid witches and mediums.
popsthebuilder
New member
What is that?
I don't use links.
I just wanted your personal definition of data as you keep using it.
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iouae
Well-known member
Solomon has just finished telling you that as beasts die, so in exactly the same way, men die.
That is an exact one to one correspondence between two sets of data.
There is no "more in common or less in common". You are trying to turn what is black and white into shades of grey.
And, though man is made in the image of God, and resembles God, man is clearly not made of the same substance as God viz. spirit. Solomon tells us that man is made from EXACTLY the same substance as beasts.
iouae
Well-known member
data
ˈdeɪtə/Submit
noun
facts and statistics collected together for reference or analysis.
"there is very little data available"
synonyms: facts, figures, statistics, details, particulars, specifics, features; More
the quantities, characters, or symbols on which operations are performed by a computer, which may be stored and transmitted in the form of electrical signals and recorded on magnetic, optical, or mechanical recording media.
PHILOSOPHY
things known or assumed as facts, making the basis of reasoning or calculation.
popsthebuilder
New member
I have trouble seeing life as simply data.
This isn't a simulation and GOD is not a computer program.
Sure GOD knows everything about us. And I don't believe our spirit is eternal or infinite in and of itself, but I still can't really consider life and existence as simply the sum of data.
We are told not to liken man to machine or the work of man. But data is derived from computer science which is based on an invention of man.
Thank you for producing your definition for me.
I look forward to reading more about it.
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Pops,
If you read iouae's posts you understand he is explaining how he reads the bible.
It is interesting.
iouae
Well-known member
I don't see LIFE as data.
I see everything there is to know about YOU as data.
I see nothing mysterious about me. All my memories are just fading videos, or corrupting data. A video can be stored in any format.
All my likes and dislikes and character traits and quirks could be summarised on one big questionnaire.
My chances of doing this or that under whatever circumstance, viz. my character, likewise is just a probability value based on past choices.
For instance, some folks will never commit adultery if given the chance, and some folks will always commit adultery if given the chance. Most folks are somewhere between. But God knows our threshold. This is a piece of DATA the point at which each person is likely to crack.
That threshold varies from person to person and God never allows us to be tempted above that threshold of what we can bear.
1Co 10:13
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
And if you removed our hormones, we become like eunuchs, and then are entirely predictable. This, I suspect, will be the case in the resurrection.
Again, its all data.
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way 2 go
Well-known member
IF the story stopped at verse 7 you would have a point
no indication from the bible that it was anybody but Samuel
the woman saw Samuel
1Sa 28:12 When the woman saw Samuel
1Sa 28:14 ... And Saul knew that it was Samuel,
1Sa 28:15 Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul answered,
1Sa 28:16 And Samuel said,
1Sa 28:20 Then Saul fell at once full length on the ground, filled with fear because of the words of Samuel
no indication from the bible that it was anybody but Samuel
Saul was not deceived , what Samuel prophesied came to pass which is the sign of a true prophet.
Deu 18:21 And if you say in your heart, How shall we know the word which Jehovah has not spoken?
Deu 18:22 When a prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah, if the thing does not follow nor come to pass, that is the thing which Jehovah has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You shall not be afraid of him.
iouae
Well-known member
Satan said the following, and every word of it was true...
Gen 3:5
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Demons sometimes speak the truth, or a half-truth.
And humans have an innate desire to believe half-truths and outright lies. We will always defend our point of view, no matter how half-baked it is simply because it is OUR point of view.
Way to go - I see you WANT to believe it was Samuel. So believe it was Samuel. I feel no need to try to change the mind of someone determined to believe something. What you believe does not touch my skin, and whatever does not touch my skin cannot affect me. So, I am done trying to change your mind.
Lon
Well-known member
Yes I am. I believe the scriptures do. No animal was warned of the tree of good and evil. We are going to have to disagree that such is this simplistic, nor do I believe that was Solomon's point. Ecclesiastes 3:21;12:7 :think:
2 Peter 2:12 :think:
Lon
Well-known member
Why? You can't deliver? Why start a thread you can't prove or deliver on? :idunno: :think:
iouae
Well-known member
I don't start a thread with any expectations from myself.
I start a thread because it interested me at the time.
Where does this idea that a thread starter has any responsibilities or obligations come from?
And if it is proved to my satisfaction, that is that. You cannot satisfy all
And the process was totally worthwhile in that I have learned a lot from folks like Clefty, and his unique point of view, which comes from very different places than mine, yet we agree. And Meshak likes some of the things said here too, so that is a reward for me. My expectations from this thread are totally satisfied.
Lon
Well-known member
That if we die as 'brute beasts' without a knowledge of the Lord, it means nothing. Only serving God has ANY meaning. John 15:5 Men without God? Like animals, live, eat, breath, die. With God? Meaning, totally different.
Disagree, it is because they didn't praise Him to begin with. In Hades they don't. It wouldn't make a difference. Paul said in Philippians 1 "Absent from the body IS present with the Lord. The model I'd given no longer has believers dying.And Ps 115:17 proves my point, that those in the grave are silent, and not praising the Lord, because they are "asleep". Thanks for pointing us to that scripture Lon.
Lon
Well-known member
I don't start a thread with any expectations from myself.
I start a thread because it interested me at the time.
Where does this idea that a thread starter has any responsibilities or obligations come from?
And if it is proved to my satisfaction, that is that. You cannot satisfy all
True, BUT I generally start a thread I'm well-versed in OR I start them with a question to find something out (at least over theology discussion). Might be a difference in our approach with a bit of egocentric expectation of the same I have,of others. Not that it's a big deal, but I'm glad I asked 'why.' It helps me stop just seeing my own reasons and rationalities for starting a thread and look to why another would different than my own.
iouae
Well-known member
You just totally modified what Solomon said to say there are 2 categories of mankind, when Solomon said all mankind, no reference to two categories, those with God and without. And if man has an immortal soul, it should not matter anyhow, since the immortal soul would go one to heaven, one to hell. Solomon says it does neither. It goes where beasts go - to the grave.
If you modify scripture at will, you will end up in the reeds.
Again making up scripture. The scripture describes the state of the dead, not the living before they died as you make out. And again no division into good dead and bad dead in Ps 115:17. That division exists only in your mind.
popsthebuilder
New member
So you are saying life is not data, but the actions one takes or not is data?
I have no doubt GOD could recreate everything from memory or data or whatever other means GOD demes fit.
I'm glad you don't consider literally everything in creation to be simply data.
There is more to life and existence than data or the culmination there of.
peace
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So is Peter here is believing as Saul did of the apparition that the donkey spoke of itself?
That Saul knew it was Samuel is what he wished it to be...just as pagans know their graven rocks and adorned trees ARE gods...but when pressed they admit they are of their gods...and disobedient israel knew the golden calf WAS Yah but would admit it was just gold shaped into their belief of His image...and christians their images of Jesus IS Jesus...the more sophisticated of them with disclaimers “no no no it’s not actually Jesus we use it to remind ourselves to think of focus on pray to Him and through it...through this image we render worship to its prototype it being a window into heaven...we are allowed to make this ikon and use it because He became flesh incarnate thus visible so we can break the second will of His Father...fuh fuh fuh”...good grief
That the apparition was real and visible is not the issue but that Saul knew it was because he wished it to be believed it to be willed it so and thus for him it was...as if witches CAN disturb the saints and rise them from Abraham’s bosom...Abraham knows they have Moses and the prophets and wont believe anyone risen from the flames or from His bosom...why would Saul believe it to be Samuel...oh wait Saul did believe...did Abraham lie??...or wrong?
And now even Peter believes the donkey spoke on its own in a human voice...