How can God resurrect us if we do not have an immortal soul?

[iouae]

A few exceptions: It really was Samuel who came to Saul, for instance.

1Sa 28:6
And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
1Sa 28:7
Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.
And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?
And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.
Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.


The moral of this story is obvious. If God will not answer you, you can force His hand, and make Him answer you by going to a medium (Mediums were condemned to death under OT law). Right :think:

Next notice that Saul never sees "Samuel". The lying spirit through the lying medium describes what SHE SEES, an old man with a mantle. Everyone had seen Samuel, so how easy it would be to lie and pretend to describe "Samuel".

Next "Samuel" is seen by the woman as coming up from the earth, not down from heaven.

The medium no doubt believed the almost universal Satanic lie that "thou shalt not surely die" and might in all sincerity believe she was actually talking to Samuel, not a demon posing as "Samuel".

Mediums, by definition are in contact with evil spirits, so Ockham's razor suggests she is in contact with a wicked spirit rather than Samuel.

Next, even mediums/false prophets like Balaam can be used by God to speak to wicked people. Balaam spoke the truth to Balak, and this wicked spirit may actually carry a true message from God, that Saul would die. Or, with the battle imminent, this may have been a good guess by the demon/medium. It may even have been a self fulfilling prophecy, since Saul left convinced he would die.

As Clefty pointed out, mediums do not summon dead saints.

There is not a demon in the world who can foretell the future since the future is not predestined. Only God can correctly prophesy, since He has the power to bring anything to pass.

 

[iouae]

A few exceptions: It really was Samuel who came to Saul, for instance.

1Sa 28:15
And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?
And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:
Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.
Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines

Wherever one reads "Samuel" it should be written "Samuel" with quotes to show it was a pretend "Samuel".

If one goes to a medium to hear from God, you may just provoke God to speak through the medium condemning you to death (the OT punishment for going to a medium).

This definitely sounds like a message from God, since it has knowledge only Saul and Samuel knew about - that God had rent the kingdom from Saul.

A false prophet once induced a true prophet to return with him to his house, by lying to the true prophet, the false prophet pretending to have heard from God. In disobedience to God's word the true prophet believed the lie and went back with the false prophet. The false prophet heard a message from God who condemned the true prophet to death. A lion slew the true prophet. 1 Kings 13

Notice how "Samuel" says "and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me".

Now that is a lie. If Samuel was in paradise/heaven, there was no way Saul was going there.

If Saul ended up with Samuel, there is only one way that this could be true. Both would be dead and in the grave (sheol).

 

[iouae]

Moses wasn't unconscious when he visited the Lord Jesus Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration. Matthew 17:3

The transfiguration is the fulfilment of the last verse of Mat 16:28
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

When is Christ coming in His Kingdom? It is yet future. When Christ comes in His kingdom, Christ will consult Moses and Elijah. The transfiguration was a vision of the future, like Revelation was.

 

[meshak]

The transfiguration is the fulfilment of the last verse of Mat 16:28
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

When is Christ coming in His Kingdom? It is yet future. When Christ comes in His kingdom, Christ will consult Moses and Elijah. The transfiguration was a vision of the future, like Revelation was.

Make sense, thank you.

 

[iouae]

Genesis 1:27? Jehovah Witnesses believe this. Have you been affiliated or under their teaching?

No more than all of us have been when they come knocking on one's door two by two.

I came to this all on my own when I read Ecc 3:18 on and actually believe every word.

I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

The last one is a question "Who says the spirit of man goes up and the spirit of the beast goes down".

Solomon is scoffing at this idea. Beasts don't have spirits, as much as men don't.

 

[popsthebuilder]

No more than all of us have been when they come knocking on one's door two by two.

I came to this all on my own when I read Ecc 3:18 on and actually believe every word.

I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

The last one is a question "Who says the spirit of man goes up and the spirit of the beast goes down".

Solomon is scoffing at this idea. Beasts don't have spirits, as much as men don't.

Hey;
You really think we don't have a spirit or soul?

Not that it is eternal in itself; but that it is wholly nonexistent?

Thank you

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

 

[iouae]

Hey;
You really think we don't have a spirit or soul?

Not that it is eternal in itself; but that it is wholly nonexistent?

Thank you

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

I read Ecc 3:18on, and believed what it said, that as Rover dies, so die I.

Next I asked myself, how God could then give one eternal life. Surely something about us must linger on so that we with all our uniqueness could be resurrected. Then It came to me that God has perfect memory, a 100% complete memory of us, down to the last hair, and knows our every thought. Otherwise how could He judge us? We are just data and God puts that data in a spirit body, or if He wants to, into a mortal fleshly one as in Ezekiel 37.

And if God chooses to resurrect Rover as spirit Rover, He could do that too, since God has a perfect memory of Rover too. And Rover is just data.

 

[meshak]

I read Ecc 3:18on, and believed what it said, that as Rover dies, so die I.

Next I asked myself, how God could then give one eternal life. Surely something about us must linger on so that we with all our uniqueness could be resurrected. Then It came to me that God has perfect memory, a 100% complete memory of us, down to the last hair, and knows our every thought. Otherwise how could He judge us? We are just data and God puts that data in a spirit body, or if He wants to, into a mortal fleshly one as in Ezekiel 37.

you are so insightful. thank you.

 

[iouae]

you are so insightful. thank you.

Thank you so much Meshak. You are too kind.

 

[meshak]

Thank you so much Meshak. You are too kind.

Your commentary is so clear to me.

 

[way 2 go]

Sa 28:15 Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul answered, “I am in great distress, for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams. Therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do.”
1Sa 28:16 And Samuel said, “Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has turned from you and become your enemy?


bible says Samuel said

1Sa 28:15 Then Samuel said to Saul “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”

and Saul heard Samuel

1Sa 28:15 ,,, Saul answered “I am in great distress,

bible says Samuel said

1Sa 28:16 And Samuel said, “Why then do you ask me,

1Sa 28:20 Then Saul fell at once full length on the ground, filled with fear because of the words of Samuel.


no evidence of it being anyone else other than Samuel

 

[Lon]

1Sa 28:6

Spoiler

And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
1Sa 28:7
Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.
And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?
And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.
Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.


The moral of this story is obvious. If God will not answer you, you can force His hand, and make Him answer you by going to a medium (Mediums were condemned to death under OT law). Right :think:

Next notice that Saul never sees "Samuel". The lying spirit through the lying medium describes what SHE SEES, an old man with a mantle. Everyone had seen Samuel, so how easy it would be to lie and pretend to describe "Samuel".

Next "Samuel" is seen by the woman as coming up from the earth, not down from heaven.

The medium no doubt believed the almost universal Satanic lie that "thou shalt not surely die" and might in all sincerity believe she was actually talking to Samuel, not a demon posing as "Samuel".

Mediums, by definition are in contact with evil spirits, so Ockham's razor suggests she is in contact with a wicked spirit rather than Samuel.

Next, even mediums/false prophets like Balaam can be used by God to speak to wicked people. Balaam spoke the truth to Balak, and this wicked spirit may actually carry a true message from God, that Saul would die. Or, with the battle imminent, this may have been a good guess by the demon/medium. It may even have been a self fulfilling prophecy, since Saul left convinced he would die.

As Clefty pointed out, mediums do not summon dead saints.

There is not a demon in the world who can foretell the future since the future is not predestined. Only God can correctly prophesy, since He has the power to bring anything to pass.

Lots of assumptions. 1 Samuel 28:1-25

"Up from the earth" doesn't mean anything, as I said, Hades was divided hell/paradise and was not in heaven. "where?" A position doesn't make a lot of difference to me.

Granted, and I've given, my view may be incorrect, but it looks biblically solid to me and as far as I've seen, is consistent with biblical descriptions.

▲Way2Go▲ hits a few points I've had brought up as well. As I said, I think he, I, and Glory mostly agree on this model. As I said too, it is becoming the Reformed/Protestant/Evangelical position (not quite there yet in universal acceptance). In Him :e4e: -Lon

 

[Lon]

The transfiguration is the fulfilment of the last verse of Mat 16:28
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

When is Christ coming in His Kingdom? It is yet future. When Christ comes in His kingdom, Christ will consult Moses and Elijah. The transfiguration was a vision of the future, like Revelation was.

At least you've compared your view to other scriptures :up: For me, yours seems stretched. I see NO indication that this was future. Revelation? Yes, it is even said. Here? :nono: If your view has to force the text (or mine) we need to REALLY be careful when pushing the view. I know, for instance, my view isn't the majority view, at least not yet. I think, however, because (at least to me) it honors scripture and is the most consistent (again, as far as I'm concerned) it was nearly impossible for me not to acquiesce. I'm not even sure there is a name to this yet, but I kind of like 'biblical' to start with.

 

[iouae]

Sa 28:15 Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul answered, “I am in great distress, for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams. Therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do.”
1Sa 28:16 And Samuel said, “Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has turned from you and become your enemy?


bible says Samuel said

1Sa 28:15 Then Samuel said to Saul “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”

and Saul heard Samuel

1Sa 28:15 ,,, Saul answered “I am in great distress,

bible says Samuel said

1Sa 28:16 And Samuel said, “Why then do you ask me,

1Sa 28:20 Then Saul fell at once full length on the ground, filled with fear because of the words of Samuel.


no evidence of it being anyone else other than Samuel

Why is it that when a medium speaks (or the demon she contacts) you take it so literally, but when Solomon speaks in Ecc 3:18-21, you refuse to take that literally, that there is NO DIFFERENCE between man and beast?

There were many mediums who spoke to "the dead" on TV, Sylvia Brown, Edwards etc. Do you believe they are speaking to the dead? And how come, the dead never speak like the rich man, saying they are in hell or heaven?

It's all demonic deception. You could get an ouija board and ask a demon questions, or attend a seance. These all deceive.

Lev 20:27
A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.
1Sa 28:7
Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.

If the woman is described as having a "familiar spirit" not a "familiarity with Samuel", explain where in the woman's doings the "familiar spirit" manifests itself?

Have you any understanding of demonic activity?

 

[Lon]

No more than all of us have been when they come knocking on one's door two by two.

I came to this all on my own when I read Ecc 3:18 on and actually believe every word.

I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

The last one is a question "Who says the spirit of man goes up and the spirit of the beast goes down".

Solomon is scoffing at this idea. Beasts don't have spirits, as much as men don't.

Yes, but this is 'what is in common' not what isn't. He'd be the first to be able to tell you what men DON'T have in common with animals.

Do you think we have more in common with them, or less? In amongst the difference, consider this: Genesis 1:27

 

[popsthebuilder]

I read Ecc 3:18on, and believed what it said, that as Rover dies, so die I.

Next I asked myself, how God could then give one eternal life. Surely something about us must linger on so that we with all our uniqueness could be resurrected. Then It came to me that God has perfect memory, a 100% complete memory of us, down to the last hair, and knows our every thought. Otherwise how could He judge us? We are just data and God puts that data in a spirit body, or if He wants to, into a mortal fleshly one as in Ezekiel 37.

And if God chooses to resurrect Rover as spirit Rover, He could do that too, since God has a perfect memory of Rover too. And Rover is just data.

I get what you are saying but what do you define data as?



Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

 

[way 2 go]

Why is it that when a medium speaks (or the demon she contacts) you take it so literally, but when Solomon speaks in Ecc 3:18-21, you refuse to take that literally, that there is NO DIFFERENCE between man and beast?

moving goal post ?

you did not address my post at all.

bible says Samuel said

1Sa 28:15 Then Samuel said to Saul “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”

and Saul heard Samuel

1Sa 28:15 ,,, Saul answered “I am in great distress,

There were many mediums who spoke to "the dead" on TV, Sylvia Brown, Edwards etc. Do you believe they are speaking to the dead? And how come, the dead never speak like the rich man, saying they are in hell or heaven?

It's all demonic deception. You could get an ouija board and ask a demon questions, or attend a seance. These all deceive.

moving goal post again ?

we are talking about 1Sa 28:1-19

was it Samuel like the bible says it was?

Lev 20:27
A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.

1Sa 28:7
Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.

what Saul did was wrong , not disputed.

If the woman is described as having a "familiar spirit" not a "familiarity with Samuel", explain where in the woman's doings the "familiar spirit" manifests itself?

bible says

1Sa 28:15 Then Samuel said to Saul “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”

Have you any understanding of demonic activity?

the bible tells us when it is a demon , no such indicator in 1Sa 28:1-19 .

Act 9:15 But the evil spirit answered them, “Jesus I know, and Paul I recognize, but who are you?”

Mat 8:31 And the demons begged him, saying, “If you cast us out, send us away into the herd of pigs.”

 

[way 2 go]

Why is it that when a medium speaks (or the demon she contacts) you take it so literally, but when Solomon speaks in Ecc 3:18-21, you refuse to take that literally, that there is NO DIFFERENCE between man and beast?

Ecc 3:18 I said in my heart with regard to the children of man that God is testing them that they may see that they themselves are but beasts.
Ecc 3:19 For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.

all physical bodies return to dust, not disputed

Ecc 3:21 Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth?

that is a question not a statement

Solomon is scoffing at this idea. Beasts don't have spirits, as much as men don't.

but you have stated breath\spirit only means o2 :shocked:

 

[clefty]

moving goal post ?

you did not address my post at all.

bible says Samuel said

1Sa 28:15 Then Samuel said to Saul “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”

and Saul heard Samuel

1Sa 28:15 ,,, Saul answered “I am in great distress,



moving goal post again ?

we are talking about 1Sa 28:1-19

was it Samuel like the bible says it was?



what Saul did was wrong , not disputed.



bible says

1Sa 28:15 Then Samuel said to Saul “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”




the bible tells us when it is a demon , no such indicator in 1Sa 28:1-19 .

Act 9:15 But the evil spirit answered them, “Jesus I know, and Paul I recognize, but who are you?”

Mat 8:31 And the demons begged him, saying, “If you cast us out, send us away into the herd of pigs.”

Numbers 22:28And the LORD opened the mouth of the donkey, and she said to Balaam, "What have I done to you, that you have struck me these three times?" 29Then Balaam said to the donkey, "Because you have made a mockery of me! If there had been a sword in my hand, I would have killed you by now." 30The donkey said to Balaam, "Am I not your donkey on which you have ridden all your life to this day? Have I ever been accustomed to do so to you?" And he said, "No.

 

[way 2 go]

Numbers 22:28And the LORD opened the mouth of the donkey, and she said to Balaam, "What have I done to you, that you have struck me these three times?" 29Then Balaam said to the donkey, "Because you have made a mockery of me! If there had been a sword in my hand, I would have killed you by now." 30The donkey said to Balaam, "Am I not your donkey on which you have ridden all your life to this day? Have I ever been accustomed to do so to you?" And he said, "No.

2Pe 2:15 Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray. They have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing,
2Pe 2:16 but was rebuked for his own transgression; a speechless donkey spoke with human voice and restrained the prophet's madness.