How can God resurrect us if we do not have an immortal soul?

[popsthebuilder]

Thanks for diagnosing my condition - except I have never said that ruach/pneuma can only mean O2?

It means all the many meanings in Strongs/Thayers etc.

I am saying ruach means O2 when we are speaking about both having identical ruach as in...
Ecc 3:18. Here ruach really means "life" because the life is in the blood, and it is "breath/O2"/RUACH giving life


I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
Ecc 3:19
For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath/RUACH; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20
All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Ecc 3:21
Who knoweth the spirit/RUACH of man that goeth upward, and the spirit/RUACH of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Both man and beast breath the same O2, have the same blood, and if Solomon is to be believed, are no different in what gives them life, and no different in their death.

Can we at least agree that the ruach in a beast is not a spiritual/immortal component?

I don't think spirits of men are immortal, but do you believe all "beasts" to not have any spirit whatsoever?



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[popsthebuilder]

Clefty, all humans no doubt have a sense of right and wrong. But this is IMHO irrelevant to the process of salvation. Salvation is by Christ alone. There is one gate, one sheepfold. There is one reason we are on earth, and one reason to live. That is to discover Jesus, and befriend Him. There is but one box to tick, and that is the "Friend of Jesus" box. Not "Friend of Jesus" AND sin free. Not "Friend of Jesus" AND "done great works for Jesus". Not "Friend of Jesus" AND "smart too".

A Pygmie, a citizen of Nineveh, a Chinaman a headhunter in the Amazon - all may have wonderful morals and ethics. It profits them nothing.

I do not compromise on this point. Why? People have to know and love Jesus, because they are going to be around Him forever, cooperating with Him, bowing the knee to Him. Any and all life experience without it directed at Jesus may be nice, but its only useful once it is directed towards Him.

That is why I say the Adventists are completely wrong thinking folks will be judged on their consciences. And yes I have read Romans 2, since I quoted it when I made the original point.

Folks so twist Paul. Pauls point is that we are all GUILTY with or without the formal writing of the law.

Paul never says the antidote to our guilt is anything but Jesus.

If one knows and loves the Christ then they will inherently do good works.

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[way 2 go]

Simply because I don’t believe witches were to be killed because they were actually able to raise the dead from Abraham’s bosom...but because His stiffnecked people thought that people lived beyond being dead and could be rung up for assistance or whatever...and in seeing something called up they would believe and change their lives because of it...rejecting Him and His way which is the dead return to the dust the spirit He loaned them returns to Him the life giver and the soul waits reconnection between the two...

It’s a great controversy and Satan will counterfeit all he can to continue the deception that man was created immortal and not dependent on the tree of life...

Every other culture/people/beleif out there make images and create ideas regarding immortality...His do NOT.

so just your opinion

I will take scripture over your opinion

the bible repeatedly says it was Samuel

1Sa 28:12 When the woman saw Samuel

1Sa 28:14 ... And Saul knew that it was Samuel,

1Sa 28:15 Then Samuel said to Saul,

1Sa 28:16 And Samuel said,

1Sa 28:20 Then Saul fell at once full length on the ground, filled with fear because of the words of Samuel

 

[way 2 go]

lain: See "Bible Training" .com for instance. "I" think you are asserting here, and beyond your paygrade. Not aware of what MOST think this book is about? Just asserting your opinion over others? :idunno:
I hate to return snarky assertion with equal disdain, but I'd politely, if arrogantly, suggest you resurvey the book.

:up:
liked the web site

What meaning is there to life if there is no final judgment? And it provides the answer at the very, very end of the book with the words, “Here is the conclusion to the whole matter after all has been heard. Fear God and keep His commandments, this is the whole duty of man because God will bring everything that has been done into judgment.” So in fact, Ecclesiastes calls for us very eloquently to live our lives with God’s purposes in mind. Ecclesiastes is saying, in effect, implicitly, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. But it is doing so in a kind of a reverse way by chapter after chapter examining what little there is to believe in if a person does not hold to an afterlife and does not hold to a final judgment.

AGAIN over asserting your paygrade. I know scripture and warned you plainly you had better up your game beyond lame assertions. It was fair warning. Your little quick and dirty is quick, dirty, and inane. Use scriptures or your thread is DOA with you just opinionating. You are not able to deliver, iow. I can. Easily. It is sad you cannot. 2 Corinthians 5:8 Philippians 1:23

As I said, Catholics believe as you do, so that isn't the problem. There are some scriptures, mostly OT, that would support you, but you are too caught up in your belief to even 'listen' to anything other than your own shortsighted nose.

No big deal, stay there. You just said the same thing to another. It is ironic you are of the same mindset. Maybe we all are but snarky and asserting prowess over another isn't the way to go. It is just posturing and no movement, and, imho, defeats the purpose of discussion and threads on TOL. Granted you may have just wanted to posture you beliefs and teach/assert them, but I'm not interested in that kind of conversation. Have a good thread. :wave:

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

:wave:

 

[meshak]

God is not collecting good, decent, moral folks.

He is collecting Jesus' friends.

If you are Jesus' friend you will have good, decent, and moral.


Remember Jesus says we know them by their fruit?

We will produce fruit if we are Jesus' friend.

just my two cents.

 

[meshak]

If one knows and loves the Christ then they will inherently do good works.

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yes

 

[clefty]

so just your opinion

I will take scripture over your opinion

and do what with it? Add to it? Remove some of it?

the bible repeatedly says it was Samuel

it also says much that it was not...Peter wrote it was the donkey speaking with a human voice...wrote it twice...was it really the donkey?

That serpent in the garden...did ALL serpents talk? Or was this one seen and believed by Eve merely used by the Yah’s accuser? As an apparition of Samuel was aseen and believed by Saul...scripture says the serpent spoke but was it really the serpent? Eve answered the serpent but was it really the serpent? The irony that both Samuel’s image/appirition and the serpent were both used by the same spirit...many years later that spirit was sent into the swine...hmmmm is that why pig tastes so good to the disobedient? They still taste the demons? LOL

1Sa 28:12 When the woman saw Samuel

she saw a form of an old man covered in a robe...in abraham’s bosom are spirits aged? Was it handed a robe on the way out? That the witch saw anything is a shock indeed...I have coworkers who claim to see ghosts in the building...will they be shocked when the really do...

1Sa 28:14 ... And Saul knew that it was Samuel,

even the disobedient Israelites knew it was Yah with that golden calf...you really think witches have power over the dead saints...Abraham’s reason not to let Lazarus go and warn was that he argued no one would beleive one risen from the dead...

1Sa 28:15 Then Samuel said to Saul,

Samuel also said you will be with me...Imagine that...room for one more in Abraham’s bosom and THIS one...a king which Yah appointed then abandoned...yet somehow allowing this meeting...

1Sa 28:16 And Samuel said,

“warn others this extra biblical jewish legend is true”

1Sa 28:20 Then Saul fell at once full length on the ground, filled with fear because of the words of Samuel

as if a Yah could participate in a evil seance...He knows a house can not be divided and doing the bidding of a satanist would be exabtly that...

 

[clefty]

:chuckle: You think I'll abandon scripture just because you use the word 'idolatrous.' :chuckle:

not at all...your type are throughout scripture known as idolators...using scripture for their own purpose...yours need scripture as did Satan and His Pharisees...with merely a twist or misplaced comma to come up with entirely new understanding and teaching...

what you’ll abandon is my response...and finally the argument...taking your ball and running home...

No. Reread the verse: "God IS the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." All you did was danced around it, NEVER touched it.

like the apparition of Samuel there is nothing to touch here...you believe it though lol...of course He is the God of the Living as the dead need no God and can worship none...they are DEAD...knowing nothing much less which God to worship and how to do it...both good and bad saints and sinners dead...now tell me do they need God to resurrect? Sure...but that is not what Yahushua was talking about or driving at with Moses being reminded Yah dont change and was and is and is to be...Even with the dead He knows His own...is why the dude who touched Elisha’s bones was resurrected...now was that Satan’s power or the One Who gave Elisha life to begin with...the God of these bones...

"IF" you are going to prove my idea is idolatrous and NOT scripture, you are going to have to do MUCH better than this. A lame accusation of idolatry? :nono: Scriptures that didn't handle what Jesus said? :nono:

One more point. If you are going to engage me, you better know your bible VERY well. I'm only interested in it and know it rather well.

yeah yeah yeah...a real gaint of the Bible you are...Goliath...even Satan and the pharisees knew the Bible...and what?

Yah is the God of all...living and dead...revelations shows that...reminding Moses He was the God of Abraham Issac and Jacob was reminding Moses all that was a done deal and He was not PRESENT TENSE...God of the living as the dead can not worship...have not God...until He resurrects them...

 

[clefty]

:nono: ASK him what he believes about paradise (NOT heaven). Ask.

can’t he is dead awaiting resurrection...

Between us, the whole way we see the places of death in the scriptures is very different. SEE if his and Glory Days is plausible.

anything is plausible they even thought He looked like a calf...golden one

Again, you are going to have to know your bible very well, not JUST your own doctrine. It will be worth the effort, even if you don't wind up agreeing with everything because their view (and mine) makes sense and I think,honor the scriptures.

you THINK?...so now an extra biblical idea you think honors scriptures is what you wish me to accept? Serpent thought the same...sorry I am fleeing...

Israel was idolatrous of course they would come up with ideas and teaching they thought honored something they had not answer to...well they did dead know nothing...but that wasn’t as cool as what those around them had with after lives and immortality and all such nonsense they THOUGH better than...dead are dead burying each other to boot...

Like your view, I'd admit this is a minority view as well, but it is gaining ground among believers and I think was the original intent.

yes popular teachings rule the day do they? Democracy? 2 out of 3 is 2/3 .666 the number of man...you THINK was the original intent

On top of that, it isn't Catholic so that much might be attractive to you.

its based on extrabiblical jewish folklore and traditions...but you THINK honors scripture...catholics arent the first to use scripture to deceive distort and counterfeit

Not so obvious, again, ask.

then Mary’s answer should have included something anything remotely close to...”oh yeah duh...my lucky brother is in Abraham’s bosom”

Just as paradise was not heaven, hades is not the lake of fire. Remember the hades being thrown into the lake of fire in Revelation?

sure...hell now cast into hell? What I dont see is how these spirits and souls live beyond into eternity tormented...

Again, ask. You may not agree, but I think you'll find it interesting to ask.

ask who the witch at Endor?

The torment was there. It doesn't mean water was.

this folk tale falls apart every time you apply it to reality...just like Santa Clause...even historical events people wish to believe thus deny need of facts

That the rich man was tormented is understandable...but that he would ask for something that wasn’t there does not...nor does it make sense that a physical drop of water lasts in a furnace let alone soothes a spirit’s tongue

Whichever way you see it, 1) God IS the God of the living and

but also of the dead

2) Abraham is depicted alive, despite not having a body.

depictions are real...idolatrous though...

and what’s the POINT of being in his bosom but for comfort...but wait! comfort is more than proximity but for soft and warm and familiar...hmmmm....spirits feel that between each other...let alone magic flames of fires?

So much so that the Jews called those who were the Lord's and died, the "Bosom of Abraham."

Yes of course they did...they did not have a real COMFORTER sent to those who believed in an event still to come for those poor jews who had nothing but housewife tales and legends to imagine and that sentimentally...

The irony purgatory was taken from jews and yet I am the one called a judiazer for taking back what is NOT theirs...the Sabbath...lol

 

[iouae]

My internet Wifi fried by a lightning strike so cannot say much. Just as well this is not MY thread, as Lon believes, so all good ��

 

[Lon]

not at all...your type are throughout scripture known as idolators...using scripture for their own purpose

I'm glad you are this cocky for when you stand before the Lord Jesus Christ with me :up: Matthew 5:5. Not you? :think: I'm terrified, frankly. I don't want to malign my Lord Jesus Christ or who is His. You? :noway: You post with a lot of accusation and angst. We are both going to stand before Him and give account.

...yours need scripture as did Satan and His Pharisees

Wow, "thus sayeth the Lord's prognosticator!" You are correct though, I need scriptures Matthew 4:4

...with merely a twist or misplaced comma to come up with entirely new understanding and teaching...

Or just read it? :think:

what you’ll abandon is my response...and finally the argument...taking your ball and running home...

Er, hate to tell you fella, NO (zero, nadda) scriptures here. Sure, I'll abandon your response. Hebrews 8:11 I'm not sure I need you :think:

like the apparition of Samuel there is nothing to touch here...you believe it though lol

Wait. You are seriously accusing me of believing scriptures? Like Balaam's donkey? :noway:

Guilty.

...of course He is the God of the Living as the dead need no God and can worship none...they are DEAD...knowing nothing much less which God to worship and how to do it...both good and bad saints and sinners dead...now tell me do they need God to resurrect? Sure...but that is not what Yahushua was talking about or driving at with Moses being reminded Yah dont change and was and is and is to be...Even with the dead He knows His own...is why the dude who touched Elisha’s bones was resurrected...now was that Satan’s power or the One Who gave Elisha life to begin with...the God of these bones...

Yes, but 'spiritually' dead. Read Luke 16 again.

yeah yeah yeah...a real gaint of the Bible you are...Goliath...even Satan and the pharisees knew the Bible...and what?

Matthew 4:4 John 5:39 I'm pretty sure you are wrong in your posturing in this thread. You've made this an issue of salvation. I don't believe it is but when you are shooting off your mouth about people being in league with Satan over the matter? Yeah, you've got problems. You and I WILL stand before Him. Matthew 12:36

Yah is the God of all...living and dead...revelations shows that...reminding Moses He was the God of Abraham Issac and Jacob was reminding Moses all that was a done deal and He was not PRESENT TENSE...God of the living as the dead can not worship...have not God...until He resurrects them...

That's your belief. Entirely scriptural? No, I don't believe it is. That leaves us completely disagreeing.

Question: Allowable in church between brothers or no? Is this one to separate churches over? PERHAPS you've overstepped your bounds and authority...

▼more of your polarizing and 'win at all costs, even if it wickedly and gleefully means hell for the other guys'
Matthew 12:36 Because you've made a salvation issue out of this? Matthew 7:1

Me? Trembling before the Maker I love. You? Loosely throwing out condemnations with wicked glee. We will both stand before Him. -Lon

can’t he is dead awaiting resurrection...

anything is plausible they even thought He looked like a calf...golden one

you THINK?...so now an extra biblical idea you think honors scriptures is what you wish me to accept? Serpent thought the same...sorry I am fleeing...

Israel was idolatrous of course they would come up with ideas and teaching they thought honored something they had not answer to...well they did dead know nothing...but that wasn’t as cool as what those around them had with after lives and immortality and all such nonsense they THOUGH better than...dead are dead burying each other to boot...

yes popular teachings rule the day do they? Democracy? 2 out of 3 is 2/3 .666 the number of man...you THINK was the original intent

its based on extrabiblical jewish folklore and traditions...but you THINK honors scripture...catholics arent the first to use scripture to deceive distort and counterfeit




then Mary’s answer should have included something anything remotely close to...”oh yeah duh...my lucky brother is in Abraham’s bosom”


sure...hell now cast into hell? What I dont see is how these spirits and souls live beyond into eternity tormented...

ask who the witch at Endor?


this folk tale falls apart every time you apply it to reality...just like Santa Clause...even historical events people wish to believe thus deny need of facts

That the rich man was tormented is understandable...but that he would ask for something that wasn’t there does not...nor does it make sense that a physical drop of water lasts in a furnace let alone soothes a spirit’s tongue

but also of the dead

depictions are real...idolatrous though...

and what’s the POINT of being in his bosom but for comfort...but wait! comfort is more than proximity but for soft and warm and familiar...hmmmm....spirits feel that between each other...let alone magic flames of fires?



Yes of course they did...they did not have a real COMFORTER sent to those who believed in an event still to come for those poor jews who had nothing but housewife tales and legends to imagine and that sentimentally...

The irony purgatory was taken from jews and yet I am the one called a judiazer for taking back what is NOT theirs...the Sabbath...lol

 

[Lon]

My internet Wifi fried by a lightning strike so cannot say much. Just as well this is not MY thread, as Lon believes, so all good ��

I didn't call down that lightening but Hebrews 12:6, might be both a bad and good sign. Or a good and then bad sign :up:

 

[meshak]

I'm glad you are this cocky for when you stand before the Lord Jesus Christ with me :up: Matthew 5:5. Not you? :think: I'm terrified, frankly. I don't want to malign my Lord Jesus Christ or who is His.

Lon, lets be honest, you say non-trins are not His. what gives?

 

[iouae]

I don't think spirits of men are immortal, but do you believe all "beasts" to not have any spirit whatsoever?



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Why would a beast have a spirit?

Jesus did not die for beasts, and without God giving eternal life, nothing has eternal life.

Thats what the default is - man and beasts are mortal. Nothing spirit/(able to survive death) here.

 

[iouae]

I didn't call down that lightening but Hebrews 12:6, might be both a bad and good sign. Or a good and then bad sign :up:

I don't believe in superstition.

But glad you are giving us a second chance Lon.

 

[iouae]

Most having heard will accept and change and be that friend or not...it doesnt take long...

Jesus is not everyone's cup of tea. That is a personal choice they have to make.

Just because Socrates and Confucius have good morals, does not mean they want Jesus.

And wanting Jesus is the one and only box to tick.

If morality were a qualifier for the kingdom of God, Jesus would not have had to die.

 

[iouae]

AGAIN over asserting your paygrade. I know scripture and warned you plainly you had better up your game beyond lame assertions.

I am not sure you respect scripture at all.

But let's give you a second chance.

Ecc 3:18
I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
Ecc 3:19
For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20
All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Ecc 3:21
Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Point to where "sons of men" is divided into two groups, good sons of men, and bad sons of men, as you asserted.

 

[iouae]

If you are Jesus' friend you will have good, decent, and moral.


Remember Jesus says we know them by their fruit?

We will produce fruit if we are Jesus' friend.

just my two cents.

I agree with you Meshak.

But do you think the fruit of the unsaved is Holy Spirit fruit?
Their love, joy, peace, goodness etc. is it as filthy rags, or is all goodness in the world from the Holy Spirit?

Putting it another way Isa 64:6 says...
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Do you think that God puts any value on human righteousness?

 

[clefty]

Jesus is not everyone's cup of tea. That is a personal choice they have to make.

Just because Socrates and Confucius have good morals, does not mean they want Jesus.

And wanting Jesus is the one and only box to tick.

If morality were a qualifier for the kingdom of God, Jesus would not have had to die.

when resurrected for having been judged worthy they will of course immediately accept Him as duh...

As He would be the end the goal of their pursuit for justice law and good morality...

who is to say who is resurrected having been first judged worthy but I do know having been resurrected they will acccept Him 100% just as they would have had we got to them with Him the gospel His Name message and faith...

and their remorse that they could not have done more for Him while alive on earth will make us look like life time government workers...haha

They actually are no different than anyone in the OT...not knowing the Name or person and of course only in faith and not works...He is their goal too and they will recognize Him accept Him 100% knowing He is that yearning in their hearts...He was who the Father drew them to...

Paul writes Romans 1:18-20 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them to them. 20For since the creation fo the world God’s invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, (by Him nature naturally) so that men are WITHOUT excuse...”

 

[iouae]

when resurrected for having been judged worthy they will of course immediately accept Him as duh...

As He would be the end the goal of their pursuit for justice law and good morality...

who is to say who is resurrected having been first judged worthy but I do know having been resurrected they will acccept Him 100% just as they would have had we got to them with Him the gospel His Name message and faith...

and their remorse that they could not have done more for Him while alive on earth will make us look like life time government workers...haha

Clefty, Jesus did miracles in Capernaum and Chorazin etc. and the folks rejected Him. He did miracles before the scribes and Pharisees and they rejected Him. There is ZERO way you can tell me that folks will automatically accept Jesus. Nobody will get one drop of immortality till they have proven they want Jesus personally, as in our making that decision and getting converted. God is not creating immortal, spirit Frankensteins. He already did that with the demons. But nothing is immortal or indestructible to God. Even demons will die.