How can God resurrect us if we do not have an immortal soul?

[meshak]

I like what you said Caino. You are far closer to the truth than Glorydaz or Way 2 go in this matter.

And what you said evokes this image in my mind....

Why did God spend so much time saying Man/Adam = dust of the ground?

Because we are soil - a place in which the seed of God can grow. Or the soil in which an embryonic Holy Spirit can be planted and grow. This parable also fits in with the idea of being born again of spirit. It also fits in with the parable of the various soils on which the seed fell - the soils being the various humans who hear the word.

It also fits in with what Paul wrote in 1Co 15:44
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

interesting insight.

 

[way 2 go]

Ecc 3:19
For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

"breath" = "ruach" = spirit/wind/air. Beasts and man have one and the same "spirit"/air, meaning all breath air - period.

Do you not believe Solomon that man has no preeminence or extra immortal component above a beast?

I address my questions above to all. The folks to whom I originally addressed these questions showed no aptitude either for answering them, or for learning.

illegitimate totality transfer

rûach
roo'-akh
From H7306; wind; by resemblance breath, that is, a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions): - air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit ([-ual]), tempest, X vain, ([whirl-]) wind (-y).


here it means wind
Gen 8:1 And God remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the cattle that was with him in the ark: and God made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters asswaged;

here it means breath
Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

here it means Spirit
Gen 41:38 And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit of God is?


man and beast both have breath but
Jesus taught man has a spirit that continues on after death of the body .

Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

 

[way 2 go]

I like what you said Caino. You are far closer to the truth than Glorydaz or Way 2 go in this matter.

Urantia cultist is closer to the truth

 

[iouae]

illegitimate totality transfer

rûach
roo'-akh
From H7306; wind; by resemblance breath, that is, a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions): - air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit ([-ual]), tempest, X vain, ([whirl-]) wind (-y).


here it means wind
Gen 8:1 And God remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the cattle that was with him in the ark: and God made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters asswaged;

here it means breath
Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

here it means Spirit
Gen 41:38 And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit of God is?


man and beast both have breath but
Jesus taught man has a spirit that continues on after death of the body .

Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

You have never once proven that the rich man in hell is composed of spirit.

It is the same rich man, in the same rich man's mortal body, which is about to be burnt up by fire.

If you cannot find proof for a spirit body in the rich man, then the smart thing to do, would be to stop playing this parable like it were some trump card.

And the rich man is having a one-off conversation. This is not some long enduring conversation like this thread. This is once off, then rich man is toast in the approaching lake of fire.

 

[iouae]

Urantia cultist is closer to the truth

Folks with feeble/no arguments like you, need to find some other skill, to try to win their point. And it always ends up in calling names.

 

[way 2 go]

You have never once proven that the rich man in hell is composed of spirit.

Its obvious the rich man is a spirit , can you show that the rich man is not a spirit in the flames?

It is the same rich man, in the same rich man's mortal body, which is about to be burnt up by fire.

Jesus told us were the rich mans body is , buried.

Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

If you cannot find proof for a spirit body in the rich man, then the smart thing to do, would be to stop playing this parable like it were some trump card.

Jesus only talked about things that exist .

And the rich man is having a one-off conversation. This is not some long enduring conversation like this thread. This is once off, then rich man is toast in the approaching lake of fire.

the rich man's spirit is in the fire

Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

 

[iouae]

Its obvious the rich man is a spirit , can you show that the rich man is not a spirit in the flames?

I don't have to prove he is not a spirit, since that is what the debate is about. You ASSUme he is.

Ezekiel 37 has a resurrection of once dead humans back to mortal bodies.

 

[glorydaz]

Ezekiel 37 has a resurrection of once dead humans back to mortal bodies.

:chuckle:

 

[clefty]

Its obvious the rich man is a spirit , can you show that the rich man is not a spirit in the flames?

he asks for a drop of water to cool his tongue...spirits dont have any physical part to them...or that another physical material (water) can impact...or that another spirit (Lazarus) can come into hell to physically quench...

have you seen people being burnt to to death let alone constantly burnt...They don’t ask for a drop of water to cool their tongues...

Jesus told us were the rich mans body is , buried.

yup part of the story him being dead...doesn’t have to be buried though but it is a custom courtesy that is expected and symbolic of being dead physically...

Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

How does the rich man know what Abraham looks like...how is it that heaven and hell are seperated by a ditch small enough to still see and recognize someone and still casually converse with them above the roar of hell’s eternal roaring flames and shrieks and cries of the eternally tormented?

To think it physically possible at all is ridiculous. The story was a popular folk tale Yahushua borrowed to make another point not having to do with the status of the after life at all.

Besides many people actually in real life came to believe after actually seeing in real life dead people resurrected back to real life that they witnessed...so how does Abraham know his brothers would not be convinced?

Jesus only talked about things that exist .

really? So all His parables are documentaries of real life? John 3:12If I have told you about earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things? I guess you just dont believe He spoke of them. As if people came to Him to drink actual water pouring from Him...or actually eat Him...

the rich man's spirit is in the fire

Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

spirits burn?

 

[Caino]

Thanks, its the practical aspect of a material existence as the gateway into the spiritual realm. Recall how Elijah and Elisha were separated before the material body of Elijah was consumed by spiritual flames as he had pleased God and graduated from this world. The same occurred with Enoch although no flames were mentioned. Also,when Jesus rose from the tomb, the burial cloths still lay where his mortal body once was, for the material body of Jesus had returned to the dust. Christ resurrected in the new form that we will all have in heaven. When Mary realized that it was Jesus she had encountered outside of the tomb, she instinctively wanted to hug Jesus but he preemptively told her “Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.”

If Mary had attempted to hug Jesus, she would have fallen right through him because he was no longer within the mortal investiture. The resurrected Christ now begins to appear and disappear, that's not carbon!

Recall that Lazarus's body was truly brought back to life, he emerged from the tomb with his burial cloths still in tact:

John 11;44 "The dead man came out, his hands and feet bound with strips of cloth, and his face wrapped in a cloth. Jesus said to them, "Unbind him, and let him go."

 

[Caino]

Urantia cultist is closer to the truth

Indoctrinated people like you, said things like that, about Jesus. Conservatives hated Jesus! The new wine is always hated by the old wineskins. Maybe its you who isn't allowed to think for yourself???? But at least your subconscious mind conceded that I'm closer to the truth.

 

[iouae]

When Mary realized that it was Jesus she had encountered outside of the tomb, she instinctively wanted to hug Jesus but he preemptively told her “Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.”

This verse in itself shows that the thief on the cross was not with Jesus in paradise on the day he was crucified.
Three days later, Jesus had not yet been to heaven, so how could the thief be there in heaven/paradise THAT DAY if Jesus had not even been there three days later?

Recall that Lazarus's body was truly brought back to life, he emerged from the tomb with his burial cloths still in tact:

John 11;44 "The dead man came out, his hands and feet bound with strips of cloth, and his face wrapped in a cloth. Jesus said to them, "Unbind him, and let him go."

You are quite right about the resurrections of Jesus and Lazarus as being quite different.

Those deemed worth of the Kingdom (like Christ) are raised from the dead as spiritual beings. When clothed with a spirit body from above, we too will be able to materialise/appear and dematerialise/disappear.

1Jo 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

 

[popsthebuilder]

This verse in itself shows that the thief on the cross was not with Jesus in paradise on the day he was crucified.
Three days later, Jesus had not yet been to heaven, so how could the thief be there in heaven/paradise THAT DAY if Jesus had not even been there three days later?



You are quite right about the resurrections of Jesus and Lazarus as being quite different.

Those deemed worth of the Kingdom (like Christ) are raised from the dead as spiritual beings. When clothed with a spirit body from above, we too will be able to materialise/appear and dematerialise/disappear.

1Jo 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

That is a reference to knowing Christ because of the Spirit that dwells within the believer who doesn't only believe with words.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

 

[clefty]

Thanks, its the practical aspect of a material existence as the gateway into the spiritual realm. Recall how Elijah and Elisha were separated before the material body of Elijah was consumed by spiritual flames as he had pleased God and graduated from this world. The same occurred with Enoch although no flames were mentioned. Also,when Jesus rose from the tomb, the burial cloths still lay where his mortal body once was, for the material body of Jesus had returned to the dust. Christ resurrected in the new form that we will all have in heaven. When Mary realized that it was Jesus she had encountered outside of the tomb, she instinctively wanted to hug Jesus but he preemptively told her “Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.”

If Mary had attempted to hug Jesus, she would have fallen right through him because he was no longer within the mortal investiture. The resurrected Christ now begins to appear and disappear, that's not carbon!

Recall that Lazarus's body was truly brought back to life, he emerged from the tomb with his burial cloths still in tact:

John 11;44 "The dead man came out, his hands and feet bound with strips of cloth, and his face wrapped in a cloth. Jesus said to them, "Unbind him, and let him go."

Clarke's Commentary on the Bible

Touch me not - Μη μου ἁπτου, Cling not to me. Ἁπτομαι has this sense in Job 31:7, where the Septuagint use it for the Hebrew דבק dabak, which signifies to cleave, cling, stick, or be glued to. From Matthew 28:9, it appears that some of the women held him by the feet and worshipped him. This probably Mary did; and our Lord seems to have spoken to her to this effect: "Spend no longer time with me now: I am not going immediately to heaven - you will have several opportunities of seeing me again: but go and tell my disciples, that I am, by and by, to ascend to my Father and God, who is your Father and God also. Therefore, let them take courage."
Another view:

Vincent's Word Studies

Touch me not (μή μοῦ ἅπτου)

The verb, primarily, means to fasten to. Hence it implies here, not a mere momentary touch, but a clinging to. Mary thought that the old relations between her Lord and herself were to be renewed; that the old intercourse, by means of sight, sound, and touch, would go on as before. Christ says, "the time for this kind of intercourse is over. Henceforth your communion with me will be by faith through the Spirit. This communion will become possible through my ascending to the Father."

Recall He was able to be touched by even a doubter...

 

[clefty]

This verse in itself shows that the thief on the cross was not with Jesus in paradise on the day he was crucified.
Three days later, Jesus had not yet been to heaven, so how could the thief be there in heaven/paradise THAT DAY if Jesus had not even been there three days later?



You are quite right about the resurrections of Jesus and Lazarus as being quite different.

Those deemed worth of the Kingdom (like Christ) are raised from the dead as spiritual beings. When clothed with a spirit body from above, we too will be able to materialise/appear and dematerialise/disappear.

1Jo 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

We are always spiritual beings...born by grace into this flesh but saved from annihilation and by grace given chance to make a choice for Him and live by grace for Him and return to dust by grace and then HalleluYah to resurrect to our mortal bodies by grace...restored to eat of the tree of life as it was to be in the garden before this detour of sin...

Yes we are spiritual beings throughout...living on and in His spirit whether we acknowlege it or not...those that do acknowlege it will wish to live in gratitude to Him and in according to His way...to abide in His love...and be restored to that life eternal

There is an Indian story which goes that there are two wolves fighting in each of us...the one that wins is the one we feed...

 

[iouae]

There is an Indian story which goes that there are two wolves fighting in each of us...the one that wins is the one we feed...

Great story.

I also liked Caino's story that there is a spirit man growing inside me - I think of it as a baby Jesus

 

[clefty]

Great story.

I also liked Caino's story that there is a spirit man growing inside me - I think of it as a baby Jesus

Yes...growing in us...what better way to remind us that we are soil...meant to be fertile soul...that we might grow what the Spirit plants inside us...and not what Satan wishes too...

The wheat and tares will indeed grow but harvest time comes and then even the chaff (all that which helped to grow and mature us our belief and lifestyle) will be beaten off of us and that we stand alone as kernels with our beliefs and declare testify and witness...

We indeed are spiritual but grown into souls...not spirit...that remains His...and is the breath of life...

 

[oatmeal]

What is a human comprised of?

Gen 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Thus ground + breath of life (O2) = soul.

Thus the soul comprises nothing immortal, only matter and oxygen.

The question therefore arises, if we die, and we just are opposed of matter, how could God resurrect us when we die?

God knows how many hairs we have, and knows our thoughts i.e. everything about us.
He knows our DNA too, so He could put us back together as we looked before just from our genes.

Our body and our life's experience is just data. And if God has a perfect memory, then He knows every bit of data about us, and could resurrect us in whatever sort of body He wanted, and with all our past memories, character traits and individual personality.

Thus, God does not need us to have a spiritual component in order for Him to resurrect us at the last trump, even though our mortal bodies may have decayed.

If I had a dollar for every time I have heard a preacher tell us that we are a soul, in a body, with a spirit or some other such nonsense. I probably got this last sentence wrong since I tune out knowing they are horribly mistaken.

Mankind comprises nothing more than ground and breath. All our thoughts are stored in God's memory for Him to resurrect us at the appropriate time.

if we are already immortal why would he?

 

[Caino]

Clarke's Commentary on the Bible

Touch me not - Μη μου ἁπτου, Cling not to me. Ἁπτομαι has this sense in Job 31:7, where the Septuagint use it for the Hebrew דבק dabak, which signifies to cleave, cling, stick, or be glued to. From Matthew 28:9, it appears that some of the women held him by the feet and worshipped him. This probably Mary did; and our Lord seems to have spoken to her to this effect: "Spend no longer time with me now: I am not going immediately to heaven - you will have several opportunities of seeing me again: but go and tell my disciples, that I am, by and by, to ascend to my Father and God, who is your Father and God also. Therefore, let them take courage."
Another view:

Vincent's Word Studies

Touch me not (μή μοῦ ἅπτου)

The verb, primarily, means to fasten to. Hence it implies here, not a mere momentary touch, but a clinging to. Mary thought that the old relations between her Lord and herself were to be renewed; that the old intercourse, by means of sight, sound, and touch, would go on as before. Christ says, "the time for this kind of intercourse is over. Henceforth your communion with me will be by faith through the Spirit. This communion will become possible through my ascending to the Father."

Recall He was able to be touched by even a doubter...

I like the simple explanation, Mary was excited to see the resurrected Jesus.

 

[iouae]

if we are already immortal why would he?

God creates a whole lot of people and offers them His friendship, knowing some will, and some will not accept the offer.

There is zero point in God making man out of some spirit component which is indestructible, when God knows from the start that some are destined to destruction.

So those God befriends He grows a bit of Himself inside them (remember we eat the communion Christ and drink the communion Christ and that feeds us, we are attached to the vine, we are part of the same body of Christ etc.)

But everything we are, our personality, character, appearance, and even the part of Christ grown in us is just data. And God remembers data perfectly. He could reproduce oatmeal perfectly from memory, down to the last hair. And God certainly can see the bit of Christ He has grown in you, i.e. your spiritual character. That too is data.

So when we die, there is no need of a spirit component.

The incorrigibly wicked are raised, judged, and burnt up because they are still raised as mortals - easy to destroy.

Those of us who took up the offer of salvation, at Christ's coming He resurrects with new spirit bodies with all their good character, good personality, good spiritual attributes, holy attitudes etc. The corrupted data (bad traits) He omits when He raises them from the dead. Those alive He instantly converts to spirit as they rise to meet Him in the air.