Hate the sin or the sinner?

[Nathon Detroit]

Or another way to think of it might be a simple crime like paperclip theft althpough being equal in sin only really effects the one person (the owner of the paperclip). The sin is just as bad..the deed has still been done but the casualities are few. In the case of a murderer though.....the murdered is effected, and his family, etc. etc. The sin is the same but he must pay for it over and over again for the numerous parties. (SPECULATION)

:sigh: And the conclusion of that statement of yours would be that those sins were not equal! One sin had little to no effect and the other had far reaching effects - not equal!

 

[eccl3_6]

:sigh: And the conclusion of that statement of yours would be that those sins were not equal! One sin had little to no effect and the other had far reaching effects - not equal!

No because the sin could be considered the transgression....the one sinful act....not the multiple consequences. All sins still equal but the punishment is in line with the consequences not the sin.

dealing with post #80 now​

 

[eccl3_6]

OK, but in light of scripture what do you think?

In other words . . . IF the Bible is God's word, isn't rather clear that God doesn't consider all sins equal? (using the references posted on this thread)

From the posts here....(I just reread the thread)...I would say the Bible is weighted in your arguments favour....i.e.there are varying levels of sin.

I did then reread the thread again in light that we may be punished by our consequences and so far that too is upheld. And if this were the case then all sins could be condsidered equal in accordance to another post that I liked....Defcon's I believe. (admittedly the posts weren't chosen to defend against this position (i.e. punishment in relation to consequence). Which Biblical references would you use to argue against this? (which version of the Bible do you refer to so I can use the same?)

So I still believe "Hate the sin not the sinner" is valid, because if you hate the sinner, you no longer care about their destruction, and would have no interest in changing the persons ways unless it is harming you or someone else.

This made alot of sense as well as I was reading through.

 

[intro2faith]

How 'bout this:

Case # 1- This kid goes into some womans house and steals a gun. The woman sees that her gun has been stolen and goes out and buys a new one.

Case # 2 - This kid goes into some womans house and steals a gun. Two days later, there is an intruder in this womans house. He is out to kill her She goes to where her gun is supposed to be, and it's not there! As a result, she is killed.

So you see, even though these two kids commited the exact same sin, one had much more serious consequences here on Earth because his stealing the gun resulted in the loss of someones life. Yet the sin is still in equal seriousness in Heaven. It was theft.

Does that make any sense at all, or do I just need some sleep??

 

[defcon]

I think all that Defcon is saying is this:

All sin is equal eternally. But all sin is not equal here on Earth.

Therefore, you should be judged on different levels for different sins here on earth, but on judgement day, it's not going to matter wether or not you stole a candy bar, or murdered the nice old lady who lives down the street. Because if you have not accepted Christ, you will go to Hell either way. So ultimately the only sin that really matters is not accepting Christ.

So...eternally all sins are equal.

On Earth they are not.

I think this is what Defcon was meaning. Am I right Defcon?

:thumb: Good synopsis - there are also degrees of judgment for believers as well but in the end sin is sin.

 

[eccl3_6]

How 'bout this:

Case # 1- This kid goes into some womans house and steals a gun. The woman sees that her gun has been stolen and goes out and buys a new one.

Case # 2 - This kid goes into some womans house and steals a gun. Two days later, there is an intruder in this womans house. He is out to kill her She goes to where her gun is supposed to be, and it's not there! As a result, she is killed.

So you see, even though these two kids commited the exact same sin, one had much more serious consequences here on Earth because his stealing the gun resulted in the loss of someones life. Yet the sin is still in equal seriousness in Heaven. It was theft.

Does that make any sense at all, or do I just need some sleep??

Good post.....here on Earth I couldn't blame the second kid anymore because he was not to know...it was't his sin that killed the woman....it was the intruder. If the kid told the intruder that she no longer had her gun then different scenario and he would be culpable too.

But it doesnt follow that the consequences caused her death....just that the consequences of his actions led to the cause whose consequences led to her death. :dizzy:

Consequences of the sin
Not consequences of the consequences of the sin

JUST HYPOTHESISING

 

[eccl3_6]

:thumb: Good synopsis - there are also degrees of judgment for believers as well but in the end sin is sin.

Yep....I think on reflection this is where I'm heading but with consequential judgement rather than Earthly sin being judged differently. Obviously I'm not necessarily linked to the Jesus thing.

 

[Balder]

If the ultimate punishment (the eternal consequence) of absolutely any deviation from God's perfect standard is eternal conscious torment in the Lake of Fire, can we say that ultimately all sin is treated equally?

The kindly Hindu grandma next door and Hitler are both headed to the same fate, in the Christian view, are they not? Unending, inescapable suffering.

 

[intro2faith]

If the ultimate punishment (the eternal consequence) of absolutely any deviation from God's perfect standard is eternal conscious torment in the Lake of Fire, can we say that ultimately all sin is treated equally?

The kindly Hindu grandma next door and Hitler are both headed to the same fate, in the Christian view, are they not? Unending, inescapable suffering.

Yes, ultimately the only sin that matters for an unbeliever is not accepting Christ. That is the sin that will send them to Hell. But God will bring different levels of wrath on Earth to the sinners that commit different levels of sin. I'm not even really clear on if there's different levels of punishment in Hell...I haven't come across any verses that say that...but if anyone can point out any, I'd be greatful. I know there will be different "levels" of Heaven(some will have more riches stored up for them) but Hell...I dunno!

 

[eccl3_6]

If the ultimate punishment (the eternal consequence) of absolutely any deviation from God's perfect standard is eternal conscious torment in the Lake of Fire, can we say that ultimately all sin is treated equally?

The kindly Hindu grandma next door and Hitler are both headed to the same fate, in the Christian view, are they not? Unending, inescapable suffering.

I personally do not believe in an eternal hell.....not so sure about hell at all really.

Hindu Granny certainly aint there though.

 

[Balder]

I personally do not believe in an eternal hell.....not so sure about hell at all really.

Hindu Granny certainly aint there though.

I don't believe in it either, nor do I think that is the fate of kindly Hindu grannies (!), but I think many of the people with whom you've been debating believe just that.

 

[eccl3_6]

I don't believe in it either, nor do I think that is the fate of kindly Hindu grannies (!), but I think many of the people with whom you've been debating believe just that.

I'll go one further....I don't think peace-loving, nice, little atheist granny is there either!

 

[Turbo]

If the ultimate punishment (the eternal consequence) of absolutely any deviation from God's perfect standard is eternal conscious torment in the Lake of Fire, can we say that ultimately all sin is treated equally?

No, because not everyone will experience the same degree of torment, as several of the passages posted repeated on this thread indicate.

 

[Turbo]

I personally do not believe in an eternal hell.....not so sure about hell at all really.

Hindu Granny certainly aint there though.

This is silly. If you don't believe in or don't know whether hell exists, why would you assert (with certainty, even!) who is there and who isn't? :hammer:

 

[eccl3_6]

This is silly. If you don't believe in or don't know whether hell exists, why would you assert (with certainty, even!) who is there and who isn't? :hammer:

Because I don't believe a loving, understanding, forgiving Deity sends loving, understanding, forgiving grannies to hell.

I would find compassion in my heart....and I believe God would have more compassion than me.

 

[intro2faith]

No, because not everyone will experience the same degree of torment, as several of the passages posted repeated on this thread indicate.

Could I maybe have some of those verses? That state that there are different levels of torment in Hell?

Thanks!

 

[Balder]

Turbo,

I had not read through the whole thread when I posted my remarks, but I was doing that just now and I did see them. I agree that those verses could be used to support the idea of degrees of eternal torment.

Not that that makes the doctrine any more reasonable or just, of course! An eternal sentence of pain is monstrous, even if some people hurt more forever than others. Hank Hanegraaff suggests that the suffering in Hell, for absolutely anyone there, will be worse than the pain humans have ever experienced on Earth. Which is pretty bad.

But there it is.

Best wishes,
B.

 

[defcon]

What's the point of insisting that all sins are equal if you acknowledge that some sins will be punished more severely than others? Why would some sins be punished more severely than others if all sins are equal? What you are suggesting would be unjust.

If you're saying that any sin great or small will condemn and separate the unrepentant from God, then no one is disagreeing. But to say that therefore all sins are equal is not accurate, because the consequences of sin go beyond separation from God.

The fact that some sins will be punished more severly than others is proof that not all sins are equal. Not only that, but some passages directly say that some sins are greater than others. How much clearer could these passages be?

Why is it proof? Have there not been explanations of different punishments for the same sin? Have I not shown the scriptures provided in a different context? Then its not the sin that is the difference but God's justice. I have also provided scripture showing that committing one sin is breaking the entire law and that the wages of any sin is death. Here on Earth God has given commands and punishments if they are broken. But the Law was not intended to bring life! It was meant to show that we can't keep the law and come to agreement with God that we are utterly sinful. Lesser degrees of sin acknowledge that the flesh "isn't so bad" and lead us astray. Read the judgments of God in context with the situation and there is no problem understanding sin is sin - not "Sin A" is more forgivable than "Sin B". Or does Jesus need to suffer more for "Sin B" than He does for "Sin A"?

 

[Turbo]

Turbo,

I had not read through the whole thread when I posted my remarks, but I was doing that just now and I did see them. I agree that those verses could be used to support the idea of degrees of eternal torment.

:up:

Not that that makes the doctrine any more reasonable or just, of course!

Who are you to judge God?

An eternal sentence of pain is monstrous, even if some people hurt more forever than others. Hank Hanegraaff suggests that the suffering in Hell, for absolutely anyone there, will be worse than the pain humans have ever experienced on Earth. Which is pretty bad.

Everyone will be punished justly according to their sins if they reject the grace that God offers through Christ. You've now acknowledged that the Scriptures say just that.

What's sad is that you'd rather reject God and compound your condemnation by painting Him as an unjust monster than humble yourself before Him and accept the grace He freely offers you.

 

[Balder]

:up:

Who are you to judge God?

Everyone will be punished justly according to their sins if they reject the grace that God offers through Christ. You've now acknowledged that the Scriptures say just that.

What's sad is that you'd rather reject God and compound your condemnation by painting Him as an unjust monster than humble yourself before Him and accept the grace He freely offers you.

I understand your view. I agree that the Bible appears to indicate these things (though some like Logos_X interpret it differently). But here's the rub: I don't think I'm rejecting God when I reject what is written in the Bible. I am just rejecting what some human beings have written.

Best wishes,
B.