Hate the sin or the sinner?

[eccl3_6]

There are many (myself included) who recognize that as a man thinks in his heart, so is he.

So if a homosexual who desires in his heart even though he does not act on it....is still evil. Even if he lives his life in complete celibacy.

Does this mean people aren't born gay but become gay?

 

[Agape4Robin]

Somehow I doubt that you are interested but nevertheless someone else might be.



Only God has the authority to forgive sins, yet Jesus claimed this authority.

Now it happened on a certain day, as He was teaching, that there were Pharisees and teachers of the law sitting by, who had come out of every town of Galilee, Judea, and Jerusalem. And the power of the Lord was present to heal them. Then behold, men brought on a bed a man who was paralyzed, whom they sought to bring in and lay before Him. And when they could not find how they might bring him in, because of the crowd, they went up on the housetop and let him down with his bed through the tiling into the midst before Jesus.

When He saw their faith, He said to him, “Man, your sins are forgiven you.”

And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, “Who is this who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

But when Jesus perceived their thoughts, He answered and said to them, “Why are you reasoning in your hearts? Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Rise up and walk’? But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”--He said to the man who was paralyzed, “I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.”

Immediately he rose up before them, took up what he had been lying on, and departed to his own house, glorifying God. And they were all amazed, and they glorified God and were filled with fear, saying, “We have seen strange things today!” Luke 5:17-26 (see also Matthew 9:1-8; Mark 2:1-12)​

We are not to worship other gods, yet Jesus accepted worship.

An angel rejected John’s worship and told him “Worship God” (Revelation 22:8-9). Peter rebuked Cornelius for trying to worship him (Acts 10:25-26). But Jesus accepted worship and even commanded men to worship Him. (Matthew 8:2, 9:18, 14:33, 15:9, 15:25, 28:9, 28:17, Mark 7:7, Luke 4:7) Who does this guy think he is? Even Jesus said, “Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.” (Luke 4:8) He also taught men to follow the Law of Moses, which forbade worshipping anyone or anything other than God.

You may suggest that Jesus may have been merely “a good teacher like any other.” And by good you may mean moral or you may mean wise (or both). But a mere moral teacher would not accept worship, and a wise teacher would not contradict his own teachings by accepting worship.


These examples are typical of Jesus’ ministry. Much of His ministry was focused exclusively on Himself.

For instance, when the Old Testament prophets were claiming to speak authoritatively, they used the phrase “thus says the LORD” (over 300 times by OT prophets) Jesus never used this phrase, but is recorded saying, “I say unto you” over 100 times in the Gospel accounts.

What does this manner of speaking imply?

Here are some other examples of Christ's “egocentric” teachings to ponder:

“I and my Father are one.” John 10:30

Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.” Matthew 16:13-17

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
“If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.” John 14:6-7
When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?"
So they said, "Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

“Follow me” (Matthew 4:19, 8:22, 9:9, 9:27, 16:38, 19:21, Mark 2:14, 8:34, 10:21, Luke 5:27, 9:23, 9:59, 18:22, John 1:43, 10:27, 12:26, 13:36, 21:19, 21:22)

“And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name's sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.” (Matthew 19:29)

“Believe in the name of the Son.” (John 3:18, 20:31)

“Believe in the Son.” (John 3:36)

“Believe in Him whom He sent.” (John 6:29)

“Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me.” (John 14:1)

“Abide in Me” (John 15:7)

“...if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” (John 8:24)

“He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.” (John 11:25)

When sending false believers to hell: “I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’” (Matthew 7:22-23)

Jesus claims to be “greater than Jonah.” (Matthew 12:41, Luke 11:32)
Jesus claims to be “greater than Solomon.” (Matthew 12:42, Luke 11:31)
Jesus claims to be “greater than the temple.” (Matthew 12:6)

“...the Son of Man is LORD even of the Sabbath” (Matthew 12:8, Mark 2:28, Luke 6:5)

“...keep My commandments” (John 14:15. 14:21, 15:10)

“...in My name...you belong to Christ” (Mark 9:41)

“Hear my sayings and do them” (Luke 6:47, John 14:24)

to the apostles: “He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.” (Luke 10:16)

“But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the [Holy] Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.” (John 15:26)

“And this is eternal life...know Jesus Christ,” (John 17:3)

“I give them eternal life” (John 10:28)

“I will draw all people to myself” (John 12:32)

Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust. For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me.” John 5:45-46

Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” Luke 24:44

“Before Abraham was, I AM” (John 8:58, compare to Exodus 3:14)​

Kinda hard to refute all that!!!!! :think: :chuckle:

 

[eccl3_6]

Kinda hard to refute all that!!!!! :think: :chuckle:

Yep,,,,just as valid as any other religion and it would disrespectful to attempt to.

 

[Turbo]

Yep,,,,just as valid as any other religion and it would disrespectful to attempt to.

 

[Turbo]

So if a homosexual who desires in his heart even though he does not act on it....is still evil. Even if he lives his life in complete celibacy.

[jesus]"You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery.' But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."[/jesus] Matthew 5:27-28​

Does this mean people aren't born gay but become gay?

People aren't born homosexual any more than they're born adulterers or drunkards or murderers.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

No it isn't. If one commits a big sin, he's a servant of sin. If one commits a little sin, he's a servant of sin. All sins cause man to be a servant of sin. But this in no way suggests that all sins are equal. Why do you yourself refer to sin as "big and little" if they are all equal?

:chuckle: :up:

 

[Agape4Robin]

Yep,,,,just as valid as any other religion and it would disrespectful to attempt to.

:blabla:

 

[defcon]

There are many (myself included) who recognize that as a man thinks in his heart, so is he.

Do I not hate them, O LORD, who hate You?
And do I not loathe those who rise up against You?
I hate them with perfect hatred;
I count them my enemies. Psalm 139:21-22


These six things the LORD hates,
Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:
A proud look,
A lying tongue,
Hands that shed innocent blood,
A heart that devises wicked plans,
Feet that are swift in running to evil,
A false witness who speaks lies,
And one who sows discord among brethren. Proverbs 5:16-19​

Isn't this the old covenant? As mentioned before - Luke 6:27-28 "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you." Are we to assume those who mistreat us or are our enemies aren't sinning? If not, how then can it be qualified to hate sinners?

 

[missedmarks]

This is a tough issue that has often given me headaches. Knight is dead on when he says Love the sinner hate the sin is unbiblical. It's a cliche that popped up to describe a dillema and it does a rather poor job of dealing with the problem.

The problem here is condemnation. Jesus said whoever calls his brother an idiot is guilty of murder, he says judge not lest ye be judged yourself. Other places it tells us to judge rightly, or to rebuke our brother. This gets confusing sometimes.

I think the confusion comes from our modern misunderstanding of the terms. When we are told to judge and rebuke we are being instructed to recognize, inform and lovingly correct our brother all the time recognizing that we are also sinners...in other words not thinking too highly of ourself as we do so. Being sinfull humans however, most of us like being 'better' then our brother. We enjoy having some 'currency' with God that puts us in a more favorable place then our sinfull brethren. It is very hard for us to judge without condemning our brother. Still that doesn't mean we are off the hook and we are supposed to just tolorate or ignore sin.

We should treat sin like cancer. It kills. We don't hate someone who has cancer and even though they often did things to encourage the cancer, we don't condemn then and declare them 'untouchable' because of it. We do however let them know they have something that will kill them and they need to see the doctor. We are not doing them a favor by just pretending the cancer isn't there or that it is somehow "Ok"

 

[Balder]

Missedmarks,

Would you say rebuking should sound something like this?

"You disgusting cancerous person. You are rotten and God hates you because your cells are corrupt. I hate you too, you filthy cellular mutant. Chemotherapy is the only answer. Do it or die, you freak. Consider yourself lovingly warned."

 

[missedmarks]

No not at all, and yes I am well aware that is what many Christians do.

The problem with that sort of statement is the condemnation intrinsic to the statement. You are not simply identifying and attempting to correct sin...you are passing judgement on the worth of a human being who is loved by God. God doesn't hate anyone, he hates the fact that people are sinfull and are constantly tempted to do things which harm them and drive a wedge in between him and his children

Also the anger and venom in that statement clearly shows that the speaker has many sin issues of their own. Not that anger is a sin, but cultivating it and spewing it all over annother person in such a manner is. Anyone who treats people that way needs to take a step back and worry a little more about their own sin then trying to help their brother.

There is a time to be harsh and a time to be gentle. Christ was usually very kind and carefull with the broken sinners he dealt with, his rebuke usually boiled down to "Stop Sinning" He tended to be rather harsh however with the arrogant and those that would use God as a tool to increase their own status or control others.

 

[intro2faith]

Missedmarks,

That is pretty much thee best thing I've read on this thread! You hit it dead on. :up:

 

[logos_x]

No not at all, and yes I am well aware that is what many Christians do.

The problem with that sort of statement is the condemnation intrinsic to the statement. You are not simply identifying and attempting to correct sin...you are passing judgement on the worth of a human being who is loved by God. God doesn't hate anyone, he hates the fact that people are sinfull and are constantly tempted to do things which harm them and drive a wedge in between him and his children

Also the anger and venom in that statement clearly shows that the speaker has many sin issues of their own. Not that anger is a sin, but cultivating it and spewing it all over annother person in such a manner is. Anyone who treats people that way needs to take a step back and worry a little more about their own sin then trying to help their brother.

There is a time to be harsh and a time to be gentle. Christ was usually very kind and carefull with the broken sinners he dealt with, his rebuke usually boiled down to "Stop Sinning" He tended to be rather harsh however with the arrogant and those that would use God as a tool to increase their own status or control others.

Well said :thumb:

 

[defcon]

Do we really want to just tell unbelievers to "Stop Sinning?". While I agree with what missedmarks said, the "judgment" of sin isn't to create "better people." The depraved state of the person should be emphasized over an individual sin so that the person can fall on the grace of Jesus. When we point out individual sins of unbelievers, and then the unbeliever stops that sin, we have now just pushed "works" righteousness into the gospel - why do they need Jesus if they can just do supposed "good things"? I'm not saying that we can't point out individual sin, but the goal is not to get them to stop sinning, but to recognize that we need a Saviour. As for believers, rebuke and judge as needed.

 

[Balder]

Do we really want to just tell unbelievers to "Stop Sinning?". While I agree with what missedmarks said, the "judgment" of sin isn't to create "better people." The depraved state of the person should be emphasized over an individual sin so that the person can fall on the grace of Jesus. When we point out individual sins of unbelievers, and then the unbeliever stops that sin, we have now just pushed "works" righteousness into the gospel - why do they need Jesus if they can just do supposed "good things"? I'm not saying that we can't point out individual sin, but the goal is not to get them to stop sinning, but to recognize that we need a Saviour. As for believers, rebuke and judge as needed.

Why do you think Jesus told those sinners to stop sinning, rather than to "believe in him or else"? If that was his only message to them, and they didn't know that the "only way" to heaven was through considering him to be God Himself, then they very well may have ended up being lost forever anyway...

 

[defcon]

Why do you think Jesus told those sinners to stop sinning, rather than to "believe in him or else"? If that was his only message to them, and they didn't know that the "only way" to heaven was through considering him to be God Himself, then they very well may have ended up being lost forever anyway...

Grace had not come through His sacrifice, therefore the sacrificial atonement for the Old Testament still held. However, the Law as not intended to bring life but to drive people to understand that they were utterly sinful. When Christ gave this command it was no different than God in the Old Testament giving laws that people couldn't keep in our sinful state. The goal was to show sinfulness, not to be made righteous from the law. When we come to an understanding of our depraved state, we then accept Christ's sacrifice for our sin given by His grace - not by our works. Jesus did spread this message (John 3:16 for instance - "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." Faith is the difference - not keeping the law) but until His sacrifice, the New Covenant had not begun.

 

[eccl3_6]

People aren't born homosexual any more than they're born adulterers or drunkards or murderers.

Its just I read this...

www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7-1689843,00.html

And I was wondering what your qualifications were?

You see why would these people be born sinners? If it is a sin.

And if evertything is sinful which falls short of His Grace then all of us are sinners to some extent. So can we ever justify actually hating someone?

I believe not for it would make us hypocrites. If we hate someone because they sin, regardless of what sin it is, then surely we would be as well hating ourselves first.

 

[allsmiles]

Random Post:

I find it hilarious that anything must be hated at all. How pointless, counter-productive and futile.

 

[eccl3_6]

Random Post:

I find it hilarious that anything must be hated at all. How pointless, counter-productive and futile.

I agree. Not with intangible things, but with tangible things hate is counter productive.

 

[Balder]

Grace had not come through His sacrifice, therefore the sacrificial atonement for the Old Testament still held. However, the Law as not intended to bring life but to drive people to understand that they were utterly sinful. When Christ gave this command it was no different than God in the Old Testament giving laws that people couldn't keep in our sinful state. The goal was to show sinfulness, not to be made righteous from the law. When we come to an understanding of our depraved state, we then accept Christ's sacrifice for our sin given by His grace - not by our works. Jesus did spread this message (John 3:16 for instance - "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." Faith is the difference - not keeping the law) but until His sacrifice, the New Covenant had not begun.

What's the point of giving a law to people that will either encourage the misguided belief that a human can keep it, or else will lead to the realization that one is totally unable to keep it (though commanded to do so), when "grace" would not be extended for many centuries? That's a lot of people living a lie, or else living in despair and fear, with nowhere to turn (since grace had not yet been extended). I understand the impulse to take a big historical perspective and look at the whole "story" of God's (apparent) interaction with the Jews, but if you also insist that salvation is only available through one means alone, then God's interactions with his people prior to Christ appear confused or cruel: requiring a huge number of animals to be killed in a totally ineffective sacrificial system, and holding people to a law (on pain of death) that they had no hope of possibly keeping, in order to "make a point" to later generations.