Hate the sin or the sinner?
- Thread starter eccl3_6
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Doesn't seem like it to me, as I see God's judgment as the difference, not one sin vs. another. At any rate, I have expressed my view and I appreciate yours and everyone else's. I am willing to get this thread moving forward with the "hating the sin not the sinner" discussion.Turbo said:
elohiym
Well-known member
As you imply, I think we can find some aspects of both of them that are truthful; and that being said, I don't think we can conclude the intention of those who use the cliches, except on a case-by-case basis.Knight said:
Paul stated it was not he that sinned, but sin that dwelled in him sinned. He appears to have separated sin from sinner. Do you see the benefit in doing that?Knight said:
I believe it is acceptable to disgaree with a practice, believe it to be sinful, and tell people who engage in the practice what you think in an effort to help them. In my opinion, it is important to always ask what the motivation is behind the act? Can a seeming violation of the law have a "good excuse"? Jesus stated the pirests profaned the sabbath, yet were held blamless. David ate the shew bread, which was unlawful to eat...because he was hungry!
Knight said:
All sins are clearly not equal in their consequences for victims and society, but all sins are equal in their ultimate consequence for the sinner. Jesus did not say "whoever sins big sins is a servant of sin, but whoever sins little sins is free from sin." Jesus stated plainly that whoever sins (any sin) is a servant of sin, and that a servant cannot remain in the house, only a son can. He went as far as to suggest that it would be better for someone cut off their hand or pluck out their eye for offending than risk damnation.
Peace
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elohiym
Well-known member
Did I imply that Knight said such a thing? I was just explaining my point of view on the equality of sins, in that Jesus claimed any sin (big or little) made one a servant of sin. That is one way of saying all sins are equal.Poly said:
Please show where Knight said that if one sins in a small way, he is free from sin.
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Poly
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elohiym said:
Yes because your response to him was...
By stating this you're implying that Knight said the very thing which you point out that Jesus did not say.
No it isn't. If one commits a big sin, he's a servant of sin. If one commits a little sin, he's a servant of sin. All sins cause man to be a servant of sin. But this in no way suggests that all sins are equal. Why do you yourself refer to sin as "big and little" if they are all equal?
elohiym
Well-known member
Well, that's not what I intended to imply, and I should know.Poly said:
I said they are not equal in their consequence for the victim and society, but they are equal in their consequence for the sinner--remains servant of sin and unsaved.Poly said:
I don't normally use the terms "big and little" when it comes to sin, but I felt it appropriate here to make my point. There appears to be equality on one level, and yet obvious inequality on another level. On the obvious level, a child molester is not a car thief; but on a spiritual level, if either remains a servant of sin, they will perish with the rest of the wicked.
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And he made all those pesky claims that he was God, and taught people that they should worship him and follow and obey him or else.Balder said:
If you don't believe that he is in fact God, why would you call him a "great spiritual teacher" and a "saint" even though he taught such things?
Unless someone is God, claiming to be God destroys his credibility. At least it should, but you don't seem to think it's a big deal.Balder said:
Sure, he falsely claimed he was God and he demanded people to worship him or go to hell... but other than that he was a swell guy.
intro2faith
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:doh:Balder said:
Agape4Robin
Member
Seriously?! :shocked:Balder said:
:darwinsm:
Somehow I doubt that you are interested but nevertheless someone else might be.eccl3_6 said:
Only God has the authority to forgive sins, yet Jesus claimed this authority.
Now it happened on a certain day, as He was teaching, that there were Pharisees and teachers of the law sitting by, who had come out of every town of Galilee, Judea, and Jerusalem. And the power of the Lord was present to heal them. Then behold, men brought on a bed a man who was paralyzed, whom they sought to bring in and lay before Him. And when they could not find how they might bring him in, because of the crowd, they went up on the housetop and let him down with his bed through the tiling into the midst before Jesus.
When He saw their faith, He said to him, “Man, your sins are forgiven you.”
And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, “Who is this who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins but God alone?”
But when Jesus perceived their thoughts, He answered and said to them, “Why are you reasoning in your hearts? Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Rise up and walk’? But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”--He said to the man who was paralyzed, “I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.”
Immediately he rose up before them, took up what he had been lying on, and departed to his own house, glorifying God. And they were all amazed, and they glorified God and were filled with fear, saying, “We have seen strange things today!” Luke 5:17-26 (see also Matthew 9:1-8; Mark 2:1-12)
When He saw their faith, He said to him, “Man, your sins are forgiven you.”
And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, “Who is this who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins but God alone?”
But when Jesus perceived their thoughts, He answered and said to them, “Why are you reasoning in your hearts? Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Rise up and walk’? But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”--He said to the man who was paralyzed, “I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.”
Immediately he rose up before them, took up what he had been lying on, and departed to his own house, glorifying God. And they were all amazed, and they glorified God and were filled with fear, saying, “We have seen strange things today!” Luke 5:17-26 (see also Matthew 9:1-8; Mark 2:1-12)
We are not to worship other gods, yet Jesus accepted worship.
An angel rejected John’s worship and told him “Worship God” (Revelation 22:8-9). Peter rebuked Cornelius for trying to worship him (Acts 10:25-26). But Jesus accepted worship and even commanded men to worship Him. (Matthew 8:2, 9:18, 14:33, 15:9, 15:25, 28:9, 28:17, Mark 7:7, Luke 4:7) Who does this guy think he is? Even Jesus said, “Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.” (Luke 4:8) He also taught men to follow the Law of Moses, which forbade worshipping anyone or anything other than God.
You may suggest that Jesus may have been merely “a good teacher like any other.” And by good you may mean moral or you may mean wise (or both). But a mere moral teacher would not accept worship, and a wise teacher would not contradict his own teachings by accepting worship.
These examples are typical of Jesus’ ministry. Much of His ministry was focused exclusively on Himself.
For instance, when the Old Testament prophets were claiming to speak authoritatively, they used the phrase “thus says the LORD” (over 300 times by OT prophets) Jesus never used this phrase, but is recorded saying, “I say unto you” over 100 times in the Gospel accounts.
What does this manner of speaking imply?
Here are some other examples of Christ's “egocentric” teachings to ponder:
“I and my Father are one.” John 10:30
Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.” Matthew 16:13-17
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
“If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.” John 14:6-7
When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?"
So they said, "Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
“Follow me” (Matthew 4:19, 8:22, 9:9, 9:27, 16:38, 19:21, Mark 2:14, 8:34, 10:21, Luke 5:27, 9:23, 9:59, 18:22, John 1:43, 10:27, 12:26, 13:36, 21:19, 21:22)
“And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name's sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.” (Matthew 19:29)
“Believe in the name of the Son.” (John 3:18, 20:31)
“Believe in the Son.” (John 3:36)
“Believe in Him whom He sent.” (John 6:29)
“Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me.” (John 14:1)
“Abide in Me” (John 15:7)
“...if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” (John 8:24)
“He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.” (John 11:25)
When sending false believers to hell: “I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’” (Matthew 7:22-23)
Jesus claims to be “greater than Jonah.” (Matthew 12:41, Luke 11:32)
Jesus claims to be “greater than Solomon.” (Matthew 12:42, Luke 11:31)
Jesus claims to be “greater than the temple.” (Matthew 12:6)
“...the Son of Man is LORD even of the Sabbath” (Matthew 12:8, Mark 2:28, Luke 6:5)
“...keep My commandments” (John 14:15. 14:21, 15:10)
“...in My name...you belong to Christ” (Mark 9:41)
“Hear my sayings and do them” (Luke 6:47, John 14:24)
to the apostles: “He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.” (Luke 10:16)
“But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the [Holy] Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.” (John 15:26)
“And this is eternal life...know Jesus Christ,” (John 17:3)
“I give them eternal life” (John 10:28)
“I will draw all people to myself” (John 12:32)
Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust. For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me.” John 5:45-46
Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” Luke 24:44
“Before Abraham was, I AM” (John 8:58, compare to Exodus 3:14)
Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.” Matthew 16:13-17
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
“If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.” John 14:6-7
When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?"
So they said, "Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
“Follow me” (Matthew 4:19, 8:22, 9:9, 9:27, 16:38, 19:21, Mark 2:14, 8:34, 10:21, Luke 5:27, 9:23, 9:59, 18:22, John 1:43, 10:27, 12:26, 13:36, 21:19, 21:22)
“And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name's sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.” (Matthew 19:29)
“Believe in the name of the Son.” (John 3:18, 20:31)
“Believe in the Son.” (John 3:36)
“Believe in Him whom He sent.” (John 6:29)
“Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me.” (John 14:1)
“Abide in Me” (John 15:7)
“...if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” (John 8:24)
“He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.” (John 11:25)
When sending false believers to hell: “I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’” (Matthew 7:22-23)
Jesus claims to be “greater than Jonah.” (Matthew 12:41, Luke 11:32)
Jesus claims to be “greater than Solomon.” (Matthew 12:42, Luke 11:31)
Jesus claims to be “greater than the temple.” (Matthew 12:6)
“...the Son of Man is LORD even of the Sabbath” (Matthew 12:8, Mark 2:28, Luke 6:5)
“...keep My commandments” (John 14:15. 14:21, 15:10)
“...in My name...you belong to Christ” (Mark 9:41)
“Hear my sayings and do them” (Luke 6:47, John 14:24)
to the apostles: “He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.” (Luke 10:16)
“But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the [Holy] Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.” (John 15:26)
“And this is eternal life...know Jesus Christ,” (John 17:3)
“I give them eternal life” (John 10:28)
“I will draw all people to myself” (John 12:32)
Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust. For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me.” John 5:45-46
Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” Luke 24:44
“Before Abraham was, I AM” (John 8:58, compare to Exodus 3:14)
There are many (myself included) who recognize that as a man thinks in his heart, so is he.eccl3_6 said:
Do I not hate them, O LORD, who hate You?
And do I not loathe those who rise up against You?
I hate them with perfect hatred;
I count them my enemies. Psalm 139:21-22
These six things the LORD hates,
Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:
A proud look,
A lying tongue,
Hands that shed innocent blood,
A heart that devises wicked plans,
Feet that are swift in running to evil,
A false witness who speaks lies,
And one who sows discord among brethren. Proverbs 5:16-19
And do I not loathe those who rise up against You?
I hate them with perfect hatred;
I count them my enemies. Psalm 139:21-22
These six things the LORD hates,
Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:
A proud look,
A lying tongue,
Hands that shed innocent blood,
A heart that devises wicked plans,
Feet that are swift in running to evil,
A false witness who speaks lies,
And one who sows discord among brethren. Proverbs 5:16-19