Hate the sin or the sinner?

[beefalobilly]

I think your missing one major aspect of this which is that God doesn't hate just for hate sake.

Ultimately we want the wicked to repent right?

God is merciful and He would be glad if the wicked repent therefore God sent His son for the murderer as well as the doughnut thief because as we have all agreed all sins are sinful. All sins are sinful but not equal as has been clearly demonstrated on this thread.

So whats to hate?

The unrepentant wicked!

Romans 12:9 Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. (abhor literally means hate)

Any unrepentant capital criminal, those that wish to harm the innocent with malice, enemies of God that are actively working to thwart God's plan for others, and those that are so proud in their own eyes that they profess God is not necessary.

If David could say....

Psalms 139:21 Do I not hate them, O LORD, who hate You? And do I not loathe those who rise up against You? 22 I hate them with perfect hatred; I count them my enemies. 23 Search me, O God, and know my heart; Try me, and know my anxieties;

I think it's safe to say that God approves and even expects that we hate those that rise up against Him, maliciously hurt others etc. Stealing a doughnut or speeding isn't remotely "rising up" against God. God tells us what He hates therefore that maybe a clue....

Proverbs 6:16 These six things the LORD hates, Yes, seven are an abomination to Him: 17 A proud look, A lying tongue, Hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that are swift in running to evil, 19 A false witness who speaks lies, And one who sows discord among brethren.

Cool, thanks for your input, a lot of it made sense, like I said, more study is in order :sinapisN:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

One thing to keep in mind . . .

The two cliches in question on this thread are:

"Hate the sin, love the sinner."

And . . .

"All sins are equal."

Now, we could analyze both of these cliches and possibly find some plausible explanations for them or maybe some aspects of both of them that are truthful. But what we must keep in mind are how both of these cliches are ACTUALLY used in the real world and what they are intended to convey by those that use them.

The only time you will hear anyone say "Hate the sin, love the sinner." is in opposition to a Christian condemning wicked people, (most often homosexuals). In other words when someone says.... "Hate the sin, love the sinner." it's used as a way to defuse God's command to "Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear." - 1Timothy 5:20. The cliche "Hate the sin, love the sinner." a ploy to remove moral clarity and thwart righteous judgement.

"All sins are equal." is a cliche used to minimize the wickedness of sin that is worthy of righteous hatred. Usually when you hear someone say "All sins are equal." its in response to a Christian saying something like "pedophiles should be executed." The "All sins are equal." cliche is designed to minimize that sin by attempting to compare pedophilia with stealing paper clips from work or coveting your neighbors lawn mower or some type of sin that we can all relate to. If the devil can convince the Body of Christ that "All sins are equal." surely we cant be that judgmental of the truly wicked people that surround us.

 

[defcon]

Again, you are affirming my point.

All sin is sinful but not all sin is equal!

Words have meaning and it's important we not misrepresent God's clear teaching.

??????? I'm confused. I think the clear teaching is that the knowledge of the person committing the sin may cause harsher judgment but no where is Scripture does it say "Murder is worse than lying." This was the point you were trying to make earlier. I acknowledged that the earthly judgment was harsher - but please show me where such things are eternally. Are the 10 commandments the major ones? In that case lying (giving false testimony) is worse than having sexual act with an animal. What scripture am I missing?

Example of difference in crime and judgment: Say we have two people who rob from the business they work for. One is a lawyer who just wants the extra money for "extra" things. One is the janitor who has 7 kids and can't pay his bills on time. The crime is the same and equal - stealing. The judgment may be different because of the circumstances of the person. However, one is no closer to righteousness than the other in the view of God - "whoever keeps the whole law but stumbles at one point is guilty of breaking the entire law""

 

[defcon]

"All sins are equal." is a cliche used to minimize the wickedness of sin that is worthy of righteous hatred. Usually when you hear someone say "All sins are equal." its in response to a Christian saying something like "pedophiles should be executed." The "All sins are equal." cliche is designed to minimize that sin by attempting to compare pedophilia with stealing paper clips from work or coveting your neighbors lawn mower or some type of sin that we can all relate to. If the devil can convince the Body of Christ that "All sins are equal." surely we cant be that judgmental of the truly wicked people that surround us.

Actually, I see it in reverse, that it's ok that I steal paper clips from work because I'm not a pedophile. I could do much worse things. In reality, I am subject to the wrath of God and eternal punishment for stealing paper clips and am in need of a Savior. Sins on this earth have degrees of punishment - but eternally everyone must understand the depravity of themselves- none qualify (even if they only steal paper clips). Minimizing sin is putting confidence in the flesh ("I'm close to God because I haven't killed anyone, I've only stolen paper clips which isn't that bad") and disarms humbleness.

 

[eccl3_6]

Actually, I see it in reverse, that it's ok that I steal paper clips from work because I'm not a pedophile. I could do much worse things. In reality, I am subject to the wrath of God and eternal punishment for stealing paper clips and am in need of a Savior. Sins on this earth have degrees of punishment - but eternally everyone must understand the depravity of themselves- none qualify (even if they only steal paper clips). Minimizing sin is putting confidence in the flesh ("I'm close to God because I haven't killed anyone, I've only stolen paper clips which isn't that bad") and disarms humbleness.

Good argument for all sin is equal....coming from an agnostic. No transgression goes unnoticed, no transgression is unimportant. Whether it be driving offences or rape....live your entire life according to the law.

Arguing that 'not all punishment is equal' is not the same as 'all sin is equal'. Surely we punish to correct. Correction for one type of sin may be more intense for another but all sin is still equal.

 

[Turbo]

??????? I'm confused. I think the clear teaching is that the knowledge of the person committing the sin may cause harsher judgment but no where is Scripture does it say "Murder is worse than lying."

Why would some sins be punished more harshly than others if some sins are not greater (more wicked) than others? Remember that God is just.

In the measure that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, in the same measure give her torment and sorrow; for she says in her heart, "I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow." Rev. 18:7​

In the criminal justice system that God laid out in the Bible, punishments are proportional to the crime (sin acted upon) that is committed. Murderers, rapists, adulterers, kidnappers, homosexuals, etc. are to be put to death, according to God. But thieves are to pay restitution to their victim in proportion to the value of what was stolen. Isn't that a huge clue that murdering your neighbor or seducing his wife is far more wicked than purposefully not returning the hedge clippers you borrowed from him before you move away? Isn't it also obvious that stealing a car is a greater sin than stealing a tomato (even thought they are both sins)?

As for lying, in most cases lying is a sin, but sometimes it's right to lie. There is more than one example of God being pleased with people for lying to thwart the plans of the wicked. (The Hebrew midwives or Exodus 1, Rahab, David's wife Michal.)

Bearing false witness regarding a crime is criminal, but what does God say the punishment for perjury should be? Do you know?

This was the point you were trying to make earlier. I acknowledged that the earthly judgment was harsher - but please show me where such things are eternally.

We already have:

[jesus]"Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you."[/jesus] Mat. 11:21-24

[jesus]“And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.”[/jesus] Luke 12:47-48

[jesus]"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves."[/jesus] Mat. 23:14-15
​

Are the 10 commandments the major ones?

No, they give an overview of all of them (although they include keeping the sabbath, a symbolic law which, like other symolic laws, was specifically for Israel only as it was a part of His covenant with them... but that's another topic).

Jesus said that the two greatest commandments are to love God (Deuteronomy 6:5) and to love your neighbor (Leviticus 19:18), and that [jesus]"On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets"[/jesus] (Matthew 22:40). Neither of these commandments are among "the ten," but all of the ten are extensions of these two, as is every other commandment.

In that case lying (giving false testimony) is worse than having sexual act with an animal.

It sounds like you intuitively recognize that lying is typically not as great a sin as having sex with an animal. :up:

What scripture am I missing?

Did you miss these?

You who judged your sisters, bear your own shame also, because the sins which you committed were more abominable than theirs; they are more righteous than you. Yes, be disgraced also, and bear your own shame, because you justified your sisters. Ezekiel 16:52

John 19:11 Jesus answered, [jesus]“You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.”[/jesus]​

Here's another:

If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. 1 John 5:16-17​

 

[Turbo]

Surely we punish to correct.

We are also supposed to punish to administer justice. That's why it's called punishment.

Correction for one type of sin may be more intense for another but all sin is still equal.

You are mistaken, not knowing (or willfully ignoring) the Scriptures.

 

[eccl3_6]

We are also supposed to punish to administer justice. That's why it's called punishment.

But its not punishment for justice if I, the offended/victim, forgive....its just punishment to correct.

Am I right or wrong?

(I'm not willingly ignoring scripture....I reading up on it as we speak)

 

[Nathon Detroit]

:turbo: rocks.

 

[billwald]

If all sins are equal and a person is convinced he is not elect or going to hell for whatever the reason then his logical solution is to maximize his sinning. If looking will be punished the same as rape then it is logical to rape.

 

[defcon]

In the criminal justice system that God laid out in the Bible, punishments are proportional to the crime (sin acted upon) that is committed. Murderers, rapists, adulterers, kidnappers, homosexuals, etc. are to be put to death, according to God. But thieves are to pay restitution to their victim in proportion to the value of what was stolen. Isn't that a huge clue that murdering your neighbor or seducing his wife is far more wicked than purposefully not returning the hedge clippers you borrowed from him before you move away? Isn't it also obvious that stealing a car is a greater sin than stealing a tomato (even thought they are both sins)?

As I've stated - earthly consequences exist. I don't dispute that

We already have:

[jesus]"Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you."[/jesus] Mat. 11:21-24

[jesus]“And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.”[/jesus] Luke 12:47-48

[jesus]"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves."[/jesus] Mat. 23:14-15​

This deals with harsher judgement for those with knowledge, but this doesn't minimize the sin itself in other cases. This is an incorrect inference that "harsher punishment" means "it was a larger sin." This deals with the judgment being unequal not the sin being unequal.

Here's another:

If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. 1 John 5:16-17​

The sin that leads to death, IMHO is unbelief. Not sure how this helps the case, it just says unbelief can't be forgiven by us praying for the one who is unsaved. In context, this scripture is dealing with the simplicity of the gospel message (v. 12 -"He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.") It also isn't specific to lead us to the conclusion the meaning is "some sin is tolerable because it's not that bad". It says in Romans 6:23 - " For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in [ Or through] Christ Jesus our Lord." The wages of sin (not some sin, or the bad sins, but all sin) is death. No differing levels here.​

 

[intro2faith]

I think all that Defcon is saying is this:

All sin is equal eternally. But all sin is not equal here on Earth.

Therefore, you should be judged on different levels for different sins here on earth, but on judgement day, it's not going to matter wether or not you stole a candy bar, or murdered the nice old lady who lives down the street. Because if you have not accepted Christ, you will go to Hell either way. So ultimately the only sin that really matters is not accepting Christ.

So...eternally all sins are equal.

On Earth they are not.

I think this is what Defcon was meaning. Am I right Defcon?

 

[billwald]

"The sin that leads to death, IMHO is unbelief."

This concept boggles the mind.

I believe it will rain
I think it will rain
I conclude it will rain

I believe Jesus is God
I think Jesus is God
I conclude Jesus is God.

People go to hell for incorrect data analysis.

 

[Turbo]

I think all that Defcon is saying is this:

All sin is equal eternally. But all sin is not equal here on Earth.

Therefore, you should be judged on different levels for different sins here on earth, but on judgement day, it's not going to matter wether or not you stole a candy bar, or murdered the nice old lady who lives down the street.

I have posted several passages that show that this is not the case.

Because if you have not accepted Christ, you will go to Hell either way. So ultimately the only sin that really matters is not accepting Christ.

Will everyone who is in hell experience exactly the same degree of torment? (Hint: read the passages I've posted in this thread.)

 

[Turbo]

This deals with harsher judgement for those with knowledge, but this doesn't minimize the sin itself in other cases. This is an incorrect inference that "harsher punishment" means "it was a larger sin." This deals with the judgment being unequal not the sin being unequal.

What's the point of insisting that all sins are equal if you acknowledge that some sins will be punished more severely than others? Why would some sins be punished more severely than others if all sins are equal? What you are suggesting would be unjust.

If you're saying that any sin great or small will condemn and separate the unrepentant from God, then no one is disagreeing. But to say that therefore all sins are equal is not accurate, because the consequences of sin go beyond separation from God.

The fact that some sins will be punished more severly than others is proof that not all sins are equal. Not only that, but some passages directly say that some sins are greater than others. How much clearer could these passages be?

 

[eccl3_6]

What's the point of insisting that all sins are equal if you acknowledge that some sins will be punished more severely than others? Why would some sins be punished more severely than others if all sins are equal? What you are suggesting would be unjust.

If you're saying that any sin great or small will condemn and separate the unrepentant from God, then no one is disagreeing. But to say that therefore all sins are equal is not accurate, because the consequences of sin go beyond separation from God.

The fact that some sins will be punished more severly than others is proof that not all sins are equal. Not only that, but some passages directly say that some sins are greater than others. How much clearer could these passages be?

Arguing that 'not all punishment is equal' is not the same as 'all sin is equal'. Surely we punish to correct. Correction for one type of sin may be more intense for another but all sin is still equal.


But its not punishment for justice if I, the offended/victim, forgive....its just punishment to correct.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

This deals with harsher judgement for those with knowledge, but this doesn't minimize the sin itself in other cases. This is an incorrect inference that "harsher punishment" means "it was a larger sin." This deals with the judgment being unequal not the sin being unequal.

If all sin is equal why would the punishment for sins be different?

The very fact that you admit that all sin is punished in accordance with the scope of the sin is affirmation that not all sin is equal.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Arguing that 'not all punishment is equal' is not the same as 'all sin is equal'. Surely we punish to correct. Correction for one type of sin may be more intense for another but all sin is still equal.


But its not punishment for justice if I, the offended/victim, forgive....its just punishment to correct.

Your argument makes no sense whatsoever. Why would we correct more intensely for an equal offense?

Furthermore, I am curious, since you reject God's word entirely what do you make of the Bible verses that have been posted in this thread that so clearly state that God DOES NOT see all sins as being equal?

Or are you arguing this from the agnostic perspective?

 

[eccl3_6]

Your argument makes no sense whatsoever. #1 Why would we correct more intensely for an equal offense?

#2 Furthermore, I am curious, since you reject God's word entirely what do you make of the Bible verses that have been posted in this thread that so clearly state that God DOES NOT see all sins as being equal?

Or are you arguing this from the agnostic perspective?

I'm not actually arguing as such because I really have not made up my mind on this...I know its my thread but its shot off at angle I didnt expect...I really am just speculating to learn (a bit of devil's advocate)


#1 Perhaps for the same reason why different medicines taste different. Or another way to think of it might be a simple crime like paperclip theft althpough being equal in sin only really effects the one person (the owner of the paperclip). The sin is just as bad..the deed has still been done but the casualities are few. In the case of a murderer though.....the murdered is effected, and his family, etc. etc. The sin is the same but he must pay for it over and over again for the numerous parties. (SPECULATION)

Isn't there a line in the scipture that says we must forgive if we are to be forgiven?

#2 I don't reject His word entirely....I am an agnostic and the reason why \i'm not focussing on the scripture is because there are far more people out there that are better qualified to argue it. There's a time to stay quiet and learn.....regarding this, this is it for me.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

#2 I don't reject His word entirely....I am an agnostic and the reason why \i'm not focussing on the scripture is because there are far more people out there that are better qualified to argue it. There's a time to stay quiet and learn.....regarding this, this is it for me.

OK, but in light of scripture what do you think?

In other words . . . IF the Bible is God's word, isn't rather clear that God doesn't consider all sins equal? (using the references posted on this thread)