Hate the sin or the sinner?

[defcon]

When you says things like the following it does....When unbelievers hear Christians make statements like that, you can be sure it affects the gospel message BIG TIME!

Why? Because you are taking it to mean that murder is lesser because it's equal to speeding? What if you look at it from the point of view that speeding is as serious as murder? Isn't the point of the law not that we keep it in our flesh but to recognize our utter sinfulness? Galatians 3:21-25 "Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law."

So I find that saying "Speeding isn't that big of a sin" encourages unbelievers that they can keep the law and therefore don't recognize their depraved state. So how we convince anyone but the people who have committed the most vile crimes that we are helpless and utterly sinful before God? This weakens the Gospel, for it is only when we are able to recognize that we are "dead in our trangressions" (Ephesians 2:1) that we fall on His grace.

 

[beefalobilly]

GOOD ANSWER - What is tough love though? When does tough love become a hateful act? What Im really asking is how far can you take tough love?.....can I kill someone, hit them, rebute them, deny them something, even force myself to hate them in the name of love?

Tough love is any kind of punishment I suppose, although I'd say punishment from the government isn't quite the same as tough love :think:

And, no, I don't think you can force yourself to hate someone in the name of love. Maybe it's just semantics, but hatred is an utter disregard for someone. To go from love to hatred means you no longer care about them or what they do. Hatred would mean you no longer care about their sin, which is most likely self destructive. To hate someone would mean you no longer care what they do, even if it means their destruction. If you hate someone you wouldn't try to admonish or rebuke them.

So I still believe "Hate the sin not the sinner" is valid, because if you hate the sinner, you no longer care about their destruction, and would have no interest in changing the persons ways unless it is harming you or someone else.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Oh, I hadn't noticed my Inbox was full. Thanks.

I've cleared some space.

Always keep your "sent items" box cleaned up as well because it also counts aginst your total.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Why? Because you are taking it to mean that murder is lesser because it's equal to speeding? What if you look at it from the point of view that speeding is as serious as murder? Isn't the point of the law not that we keep it in our flesh but to recognize our utter sinfulness? Galatians 3:21-25 "Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law."

So I find that saying "Speeding isn't that big of a sin" encourages unbelievers that they can keep the law and therefore don't recognize their depraved state. So how we convince anyone but the people who have committed the most vile crimes that we are helpless and utterly sinful before God? This weakens the Gospel, for it is only when we are able to recognize that we are "dead in our trangressions" (Ephesians 2:1) that we fall on His grace.

2 points . . .

1. All sins aren't equal (John 19:11. Luke 12:47) therefore it is a misrepresentation of the gospel to say they are equal. When we misrepresent the gospel it has a harmful effect.

2. To state that speeding and murder is equal, is . . . well . . . its flat out asinine! :hammer: Even a knuckle-head atheist is smart enough to see the obvious wackiness of that statement. Therefore we turn people away that we wouldn't normally turn away if we had accurately represented God's word.

If we have a choice between being accurate and being inaccurate we should choice to be accurate.

 

[billwald]

The very few people who have the ability to hate the sin but love the sinner are generally canonized as "saints." I've never personally met any.

 

[defcon]

2 points . . .

1. All sins aren't equal (John 19:11. Luke 12:47) therefore it is a misrepresentation of the gospel to say they are equal. When we misrepresent the gospel it has a harmful effect.

2. To state that speeding and murder is equal, is . . . well . . . its flat out asinine! :hammer: Even a knuckle-head atheist is smart enough to see the obvious wackiness of that statement. Therefore we turn people away that we wouldn't normally turn away if we had accurately represented God's word.

If we have a choice between being accurate and being inaccurate we should choice to be accurate.

John 19:11 - So in accordance with sound doctrine - what can be meant by "greater sin." Does that mean that this particular sin tougher to forgive - that its punishment is the basement of hell while other sins reserve a place in hell higher up and more tolerable? Where is that in Scripture? Again, as I stated in post 36, earthly consequences are one thing - eternal consequences are the same for all sin. Someone who has broken the speed limit will end up in the same place as someone who murders.
Luke 12:47 - Now we are getting into the rewards judgments of Christ's return. Not someone who has sinned and is saved vs. someone who isn't. Also, this hardly has to do with degrees of sin. In context, those who are taught well yet still do not obey the God's command will be punished more than those who are not in an environment to be taught. This teaches circumstances attached play a role in our judgement, not one sin greater than another. (Jesus is also addressing the Jews at this point which could lead us to believe the servant who is not doing the master's command are the Jewish people, not Christian believers. At any rate, this verse hardly proves your point)
Do we need to confess more for "major" sins? Was Christ's sacrifice not as important to someone who hasn't committed a "major" sin since its not that bad? There are rewards for believers in Christ and some won't get as many as others. This fact does not change that we are born with sinful nature and all sin separates us from God. Humans want to attach "major" sins in the form of justice because the "majority" would never do such a thing. Our standard is ourselves. God's standard is himself. And no one meets that requirement. Degrees of sin in this context puts confidence in the flesh that as long as we don't commit "major" sins, I'm a good person, therefore not that far from God. "Surely God won't let good people go to hell," is the phrase all too often spoken. So I refute your claim of one sin being greater than another - "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 4:23). This is the message of God to man in the Gospel. Believer rewards and earthly consequences are not to be confused with this doctrine that is vital to anyone coming to salvation.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

John 19:11 - So in accordance with sound doctrine - what can be meant by "greater sin." Does that mean that this particular sin tougher to forgive - that its punishment is the basement of hell while other sins reserve a place in hell higher up and more tolerable? Where is that in Scripture? Again, as I stated in post 36, earthly consequences are one thing - eternal consequences are the same for all sin. Someone who has broken the speed limit will end up in the same place as someone who murders.
Luke 12:47 - Now we are getting into the rewards judgments of Christ's return. Not someone who has sinned and is saved vs. someone who isn't. Also, this hardly has to do with degrees of sin. In context, those who are taught well yet still do not obey the God's command will be punished more than those who are not in an environment to be taught. This teaches circumstances attached play a role in our judgement, not one sin greater than another. (Jesus is also addressing the Jews at this point which could lead us to believe the servant who is not doing the master's command are the Jewish people, not Christian believers. At any rate, this verse hardly proves your point)
Do we need to confess more for "major" sins? Was Christ's sacrifice not as important to someone who hasn't committed a "major" sin since its not that bad? There are rewards for believers in Christ and some won't get as many as others. This fact does not change that we are born with sinful nature and all sin separates us from God. Humans want to attach "major" sins in the form of justice because the "majority" would never do such a thing. Our standard is ourselves. God's standard is himself. And no one meets that requirement. Degrees of sin in this context puts confidence in the flesh that as long as we don't commit "major" sins, I'm a good person, therefore not that far from God. "Surely God won't let good people go to hell," is the phrase all too often spoken. So I refute your claim of one sin being greater than another - "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 4:23). This is the message of God to man in the Gospel. Believer rewards and earthly consequences are not to be confused with this doctrine that is vital to anyone coming to salvation.

If you are trying to refute my point I certainly don't see it.

What is it about "greater sin" don't you understand? Those aren't my words those are God's words.

Here is the point . . . God grieves when we do sinful things. He grieves when the lost do sinful things and He grieves when His Body does sinful things.

Yet not all sins are equal. When a young girl is murdered that sin has far reaching effects and God grieves painfully in His heart, He grieves for the girl and the pain she endured, He grieves for the girls family, He grieves for the community and He grieves for the fact that the criminal was so lost that he resorted to such an act. Yet when a teenage boy steals a doughnut from his employer God is disapointed but isn't as troubled as He would be had the boy tied up the pastor at gun point and stole the collections plate.

It's biblical AND just plain common sense.

 

[Turbo]

While all sin may be worthy of seperating ourselves from God all sin certainly isn't equal. Do you honestly believe stealing a Tootsie Roll from 7-11 is equal to murdering an elderly woman and stealing her money?

Setting the common sense aspect aside God has made Himself very clear on this issue....

John 19:11 Jesus answered, “You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.”

Luke 12:47 “And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 “But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

:up: Here are some more passages. They also go against the clichés many of us are used to hearing in Sunday school but they speak the truth nonetheless.

You who judged your sisters, bear your own shame also, because the sins which you committed were more abominable than theirs; they are more righteous than you. Yes, be disgraced also, and bear your own shame, because you justified your sisters. Ezekiel 16:52

[jesus]"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves."[/jesus] Mat. 23:14-15

[jesus]"Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you."[/jesus] Mat. 11:21-24

In the measure that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, in the same measure give her torment and sorrow; for she says in her heart, "I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow." Rev. 18:7​

 

[Servo]

Not exactly...because you could still love the criminal, but still prosecute him.

Or maybe you could just put the CRIME in jail and let the criminal go free!

 

[Servo]

Proverbs 23:7
For as he thinks in his heart, so is he....

If God could just separate the sin from the sinner, then why did He send His only Son to die for us and be the ultimate sacrifice?

 

[defcon]

If you are trying to refute my point I certainly don't see it.

What is it about "greater sin" don't you understand? Those aren't my words those are God's words.

Here is the point . . . God grieves when we do sinful things. He grieves when the lost do sinful things and He grieves when His Body does sinful things.

Yet not all sins are equal. When a young girl is murdered that sin has far reaching effects and God grieves painfully in His heart, He grieves for the girl and the pain she endured, He grieves for the girls family, He grieves for the community and He grieves for the fact that the criminal was so lost that he resorted to such an act. Yet when a teenage boy steals a doughnut from his employer God is disapointed but isn't as troubled as He would be had the boy tied up the pastor at gun point and stole the collections plate.

It's biblical AND just plain common sense.

The Greek word for "sin" is Hamartia - which means literally "miss the mark" (http://diarist.com/diary-goodnews-2626.html) So the one committing the "sin" missed the mark by a greater degree. But if you miss the mark by a foot or by a mile you still miss the mark. The mark is God's holiness. So the depravity of man still "misses the mark" whether by a little or a lot. I have commented that sin has degrees in consequences on this earth and in believer's judgement. However, James 2:10 tells us "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it." So the boy who steals a doughnut is just as guilty as the murderer who kills the little girl.

 

[novice]

I think we can safely kill the "all sins are equal" cliche now.

The objective truth:

You who judged your sisters, bear your own shame also, because the sins which you committed were more abominable than theirs; they are more righteous than you. Yes, be disgraced also, and bear your own shame, because you justified your sisters. Ezekiel 16:52

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves." Mat. 23:14-15

"Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you." Mat. 11:21-24

In the measure that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, in the same measure give her torment and sorrow; for she says in her heart, "I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow." Rev. 18:7

John 19:11 Jesus answered, “You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.”

Luke 12:47 “And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 “But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.​

 

[novice]

:turbo: :up:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

So the boy who steals a doughnut is just as guilty as the murderer who kills the little girl.

The argument isn't . . . "are all sins sinful?" If that were the argument you would have a excellent point and I would be right there with you.

Yet that isn't the argument.

The argument is . . . "are all sin equal?" Your last post affirms you do NOT think all sins are equal so why are you continuing to argue the point?

 

[beefalobilly]

Proverbs 23:7
For as he thinks in his heart, so is he....

If God could just separate the sin from the sinner, then why did He send His only Son to die for us and be the ultimate sacrifice?

GOod point, but if God can't separate sin from sinner, according to some others in this thread, he hates us, and if he hates us why would he bother sending his son? :think: Seems to me like theres a middle ground...

 

[Nathon Detroit]

GOod point, but if God can't separate sin from sinner, according to some others in this thread, he hates us, and if he hates us why would he bother sending his son? :think: Seems to me like theres a middle ground...

Because He doesn't hate everybody. Which brings us back to the fact that not all sins are equal.

Some sin isn't worthy of hatred. Other sin is.

And what about hatred?

There is righteous hatred and unrighteous hatred and both are illustrated in the Bible:

Righteous hatred:
Psalms 139:22 I hate them with perfect hatred; I count them my enemies.23 Search me, O God, and know my heart; Try me, and know my anxieties;And see if there is any wicked way in me, And lead me in the way everlasting.

Unrighteous hatred:
Psalms 25:19 Consider my enemies, for they are many; And they hate me with cruel hatred.

Notice the following...
Psalms 69:4 Those who hate me without a cause Are more than the hairs of my head; They are mighty who would destroy me, Being my enemies wrongfully; Though I have stolen nothing, I still must restore it.

It is wrong to hate "without cause" but conversely it is correct to hate WITH CAUSE.

Romans 12:9 Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good.

 

[beefalobilly]

Because He doesn't hate everybody. Which brings us back to the fact that not all sins are equal.

Some sin isn't worthy of hatred. Other sin is.

And what about hatred?

There is righteous hatred and unrighteous hatred and both are illustrated in the Bible:

Righteous hatred:
Psalms 139:22 I hate them with perfect hatred; I count them my enemies.23 Search me, O God, and know my heart; Try me, and know my anxieties;And see if there is any wicked way in me, And lead me in the way everlasting.

Unrighteous hatred:
Psalms 25:19 Consider my enemies, for they are many; And they hate me with cruel hatred.

Notice the following...
Psalms 69:4 Those who hate me without a cause Are more than the hairs of my head; They are mighty who would destroy me, Being my enemies wrongfully; Though I have stolen nothing, I still must restore it.

It is wrong to hate "without cause" but conversely correct to hate WITH CAUSE.

Romans 12:9 Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good.

Ok, thanks for the lengthy response

I definately agree that not all sin is equal, and can see the difference between righteous, but still have a couple questions.

First of all, what tells us which sins are worthy of hatred? I'm not aware of any passages that say this, and as we know, all have fallen short of the glory of God.

I think the main problem I have with what you're saying, is that it almost sounds like God sent his son for those, who are kind of good, and not worthy of hatred. I guess that is what you said, since in response to my question "why did he send his son" you said "because he doesn't hate everybody" This sounds like you're saying he sent his son not for sinners, but for people who aren't that bad. Isn't it true though that he sent his son for everybody? Not all will receive him, yes, but he still died for all of us, right?

Yeah, I definately need to study this some more :think:

 

[defcon]

The argument isn't . . . "are all sins sinful?" If that were the argument you would have a excellent point and I would be right there with you.

Yet that isn't the argument.

The argument is . . . "are all sin equal?" Your last post affirms you do NOT think all sins are equal so why are you continuing to argue the point?

Perhaps we have a different definition of "equal". The verses that have been listed talking about "greater condemnation" is dealing with God's righteous judgement against those who know better than most people (Pharisees). The sins themselves have the same consequence - separation from God. That's why I say all sin is equal - i.e. James 2:10. The judgment being harsher for those with knowledge, those that teach, that is not based on the sin - it's the state of knowledge of the person committing the sin. A new Christian committing a sin unknowingly will not be judged as harshly as a Christian who knows it is a sin. The sin still has the same affect - breaking the law which results in separation from God, God's judgment is the difference.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Ok, thanks for the lengthy response

I definately agree that not all sin is equal, and can see the difference between righteous, but still have a couple questions.

First of all, what tells us which sins are worthy of hatred? I'm not aware of any passages that say this, and as we know, all have fallen short of the glory of God.

I think the main problem I have with what you're saying, is that it almost sounds like God sent his son for those, who are kind of good, and not worthy of hatred. I guess that is what you said, since in response to my question "why did he send his son" you said "because he doesn't hate everybody" This sounds like you're saying he sent his son not for sinners, but for people who aren't that bad. Isn't it true though that he sent his son for everybody? Not all will receive him, yes, but he still died for all of us, right?

Yeah, I definately need to study this some more :think:

I think your missing one major aspect of this which is that God doesn't hate just for hate sake.

Ultimately we want the wicked to repent right?

God is merciful and He would be glad if the wicked repent therefore God sent His son for the murderer as well as the doughnut thief because as we have all agreed all sins are sinful. All sins are sinful but not equal as has been clearly demonstrated on this thread.

So whats to hate?

The unrepentant wicked!

Romans 12:9 Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. (abhor literally means hate)

Any unrepentant capital criminal, those that wish to harm the innocent with malice, enemies of God that are actively working to thwart God's plan for others, and those that are so proud in their own eyes that they profess God is not necessary.

If David could say....

Psalms 139:21 Do I not hate them, O LORD, who hate You? And do I not loathe those who rise up against You? 22 I hate them with perfect hatred; I count them my enemies. 23 Search me, O God, and know my heart; Try me, and know my anxieties;

I think it's safe to say that God approves and even expects that we hate those that rise up against Him, maliciously hurt others etc. Stealing a doughnut or speeding isn't remotely "rising up" against God. God tells us what He hates therefore that maybe a clue....

Proverbs 6:16 These six things the LORD hates, Yes, seven are an abomination to Him: 17 A proud look, A lying tongue, Hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that are swift in running to evil, 19 A false witness who speaks lies, And one who sows discord among brethren.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Perhaps we have a different definition of "equal". The verses that have been listed talking about "greater condemnation" is dealing with God's righteous judgement against those who know better than most people (Pharisees). The sins themselves have the same consequence - separation from God. That's why I say all sin is equal - i.e. James 2:10. The judgment being harsher for those with knowledge, those that teach, that is not based on the sin - it's the state of knowledge of the person committing the sin. A new Christian committing a sin unknowingly will not be judged as harshly as a Christian who knows it is a sin. The sin still has the same affect - breaking the law which results in separation from God, God's judgment is the difference.

Again, you are affirming my point.

All sin is sinful but not all sin is equal!

Words have meaning and it's important we not misrepresent God's clear teaching.