ECT God does NOT grant eternal life

[jamie]

"Spirits do not cease to exist. Satan's end is not his non-existence, but his eternal torment."​

Ezekiel 28:12-19

"You were the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
Was prepared for you on the day you were created.
You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.
By the abundance of your trading
You became filled with violence within,
And you sinned;
Therefore I cast you as a profane thing
Out of the mountain of God;
And I destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the fiery stones.
Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;
I cast you to the ground,
I laid you before kings,
That they might gaze at you.
You defiled your sanctuaries
By the multitude of your iniquities,
By the iniquity of your trading;
Therefore I brought fire from your midst;
It devoured you,
And I turned you to ashes upon the earth
In the sight of all who saw you.
All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you;
You have become a horror,
And shall be no more forever."

Satan will be devoured by fire and will be no more.

 

[jamie]

Oh yes, their torment forever? It is the fear of death. Their fear will not be alleviated, ever.

Hebrews 10:31"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

 

[Rosenritter]

Oh yes, their torment forever? It is the fear of death. Their fear will not be alleviated, ever.

Hebrews 10:31"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

When someone stands before God for the first time, how long do you figure that judgment might take? Where the devil is "laid before kings" and they behold him? Now multiply that estimate by everyone who ever lived.... Trillions.

That is "for ever and ever"

 

[musterion]

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV)

Paul said Christ is the believer's life.

Christ is Life itself, eternal, as the Father is eternal.

Therefore, the believer has eternal life.

That's what it says. You'll believe it or not.

 

[jamie]

When someone stands before God for the first time, how long do you figure that judgment might take?

That depends on the individual. Some people are fast learners and some people aren't.

Why do you ask?

Post 202 was with regard to Satan and his accomplices, not humans.

 

[Clete]

Christ knew what the deal was before he agreed to do it. No one forced him to become human, it was his decision.

Quite so. That doesn't mean that those who killed him didn't kill him. They did and Jesus unilaterally forgave them of that particular sin, as He, being their victim, had both the right and the authority to do.

 

[Clete]

Ezekiel 28:12-19

"You were the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
Was prepared for you on the day you were created.
You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.
By the abundance of your trading
You became filled with violence within,
And you sinned;
Therefore I cast you as a profane thing
Out of the mountain of God;
And I destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the fiery stones.
Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;
I cast you to the ground,
I laid you before kings,
That they might gaze at you.
You defiled your sanctuaries
By the multitude of your iniquities,
By the iniquity of your trading;
Therefore I brought fire from your midst;
It devoured you,
And I turned you to ashes upon the earth
In the sight of all who saw you.
All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you;
You have become a horror,
And shall be no more forever."

Satan will be devoured by fire and will be no more.

You actually made and argument. And not just an argument but a biblical one! I'm not sure that this one allagorical passage is sufficient to prove your case but it's certainly enough to get you off my ignore list (not that you'd care about that so much)!
Debating the issue I think will wait for another thread.

 

[jamie]

Quite so. That doesn't mean that those who killed him didn't kill him.

Jesus gave up his spirit, it wasn't taken from him.

John 19:30 "So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, 'It is finished!' And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

 

[Rosenritter]

You actually made and argument. And not just an argument but a biblical one! I'm not sure that this one allagorical passage is sufficient to prove your case but it's certainly enough to get you off my ignore list (not that you'd care about that so much)!
Debating the issue I think will wait for another thread.

The passage is paralleled in Isaiah 14 as well, including the promise to be beheld by kings when he is brought low.

 

[Rosenritter]

That depends on the individual. Some people are fast learners and some people aren't.

Why do you ask?

Post 202 was with regard to Satan and his accomplices, not humans.

The prophecy of Satan's death in Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 say that he will be laid before kings, and that the men of the earth will behold him."Are thou made as weak as we?" they say. Seeing as the setting is the resurrection when hell brings forth her dead it is the logical conclusion that the devil still has a role to play in the judgment, if for no other reason to be viewed and witnessed by those being raised who meet God for the first time.

Eze 28:17 KJV
(17) Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

So if you figure out how many people will be judged, and average how long each judgment might take, one might estimate the minimum amount of time Satan has to exist before God will follow through on his promise to destroy him by fire, that he would be no more. Multiple even today's world population of 6 billions times 5 minutes each, and the result is over 57,000 YEARS. What if God spends more than five minutes per person raised, and what if he raises everyone that ever lived? Can you comprehend that number?

Isa 14:9-10 KJV
(9) Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
(10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

I can't fathom how long that is. 57,000 years is almost 10 times longer than the world has been in existence right now. Even if you compress time and have God judging multiple people at once, Satan will still have to be a part of that multiplied compressed experience. When you deal with periods of time and experience that exceed our comprehension, "for ever and ever" is the best description that you can supply.

 

[jamie]

Satan's body will lie in Jerusalem during the millennial reign of Christ. At the end of the thousand years he will be resurrected.

Revelation 20:2-3 "He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up and set a seal on him so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while."

The bottomless pit is the grave, there is always room for one more.

 

[Rosenritter]

Satan's body will lie in Jerusalem during the millennial reign of Christ. At the end of the thousand years he will be resurrected.

Revelation 20:2-3 "He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up and set a seal on him so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while."

The bottomless pit is the grave, there is always room for one more.

I don't know how you just equated the bottomless pit with Jerusalem. Plus the prophecy in Ezekiel 28 speaks of one destruction and death and that by fire. It doesn't make any reference to another one, or being raised to judgment.

 

[TweetyBird]

So do you dismiss the Old Testament prophecies as irrelevant? By what means do you attribute immortality to the devil?

1Ti 6:14-16 KJV
(14) That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
(15) Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
(16) Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

If Jesus Christ only hath immortality, then for anyone else to have this attribute it must be specifically bestowed upon them at a later date. That's how the text reads.

The spirit is immortal aka it does not die. The spirit of man returns to God who gave it - Ecc 12:7. satan is an evil angel who fell from heaven - angels do not die.

Man is not immortal. Christ is THE immortal >>> The only Potentate, the King of kings, the Lord of lords, dwelling in Light which no man can approach, to whom is power and glory and honor forever

Man has a beginning and an end on earth. Jesus IS the beginning and the end, the Alpha and Omega.

We are the sons and daughters of God. Jesus IS THE Only Begotten Son of God.

 

[TweetyBird]

Satan's body will lie in Jerusalem during the millennial reign of Christ. At the end of the thousand years he will be resurrected.

Revelation 20:2-3 "He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up and set a seal on him so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while."

The bottomless pit is the grave, there is always room for one more.

The text does not say that satan died or that he will be resurrected. The bottomless pit is not the grave. The grave is not a bottomless pit.

 

[Cross Reference]

The spirit is immortal aka it does not die. The spirit of man returns to God who gave it - Ecc 12:7. satan is an evil angel who fell from heaven - angels do not die.

Man is not immortal. Christ is THE immortal >>> The only Potentate, the King of kings, the Lord of lords, dwelling in Light which no man can approach, to whom is power and glory and honor forever

Man has a beginning and an end on earth. Jesus IS the beginning and the end, the Alpha and Omega.

We are the sons and daughters of God. Jesus IS THE Only Begotten Son of God.

Keep in mind, Tweedy, that Jesus was a man who ended His natural life on earth and is now glorified to live forever as God, the complete Godhead in a glorified physical human Body. He was the only begotten of the Father but now has many brothers who have been and are continuing to be brought unto Glory as heirs of God and joint-heirs with Jesus, also begotten of the Father by a new birth from above.

OMT: When we die and if in Christ, our spirit and our soul will go to be with the Lord to await the first resurrection of which our body will be part of. That is part of the Ecc 12:7 verse. The soul part being alive is that which Jesus spoke of: "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.. . . ." John 11:25-26 (KJV)

 

[Rosenritter]

The spirit is immortal aka it does not die. The spirit of man returns to God who gave it - Ecc 12:7. satan is an evil angel who fell from heaven - angels do not die.

Man is not immortal. Christ is THE immortal >>> The only Potentate, the King of kings, the Lord of lords, dwelling in Light which no man can approach, to whom is power and glory and honor forever

Man has a beginning and an end on earth. Jesus IS the beginning and the end, the Alpha and Omega.

We are the sons and daughters of God. Jesus IS THE Only Begotten Son of God.

Ecclesiastes does not say that the spirit that returns to God is a living or thinking or conscious person. That would be an assumption that is unjustified. That same book actually establishes the contrary... that the part that "thinks" or "knows" perishes.

Ecc 9:4-6 KJV
(4) For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
(5) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
(6) Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

So it seems that the "spirit which returns to God that gave it" is a quantity or a thing, rather than a person. The person themselves knows nothing. Not that they are dead, certainly not that they are alive, no love, hatred, or envy. No emotions, no thought, no consciousness. So far from proving that "spirit is immortal" Ecclesiastes demonstrates the opposite.

Hypothetically, I have 100 joules of electricity. I cannot kill electricity. Is that electricity therefore a being that cannot die thus it lives in conscious bliss or agony? No. Same as Solomon references spirit in this case. Back to Genesis, God breathed spirit into the dust and the result was a living soul. Separate the components again and man has no life, consciousness, or being. God will restore spirit when he wishes and then we will be able to think "Am I alive?"

 

[TweetyBird]

God is Life. Eternal separation from God is eternal death.

The correct way to phrase the point you are making is....

"Spirits do not cease to exist. Satan's end is not his non-existence, but his eternal torment."​

It's a rather small distinction but an important one when discussing this specific topic. It comes down to defining terms.

It is spiritual death because one does not have eternal life in Christ. The spirit of man or satan who is a spirit, does not die. That is how I define it. God told Abraham he would surely die if he ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil - it was spiritual death when he did - because he sinned, physical death took a lot longer. But Adam's spirit never died.

 

[DAN P]

The spirit is immortal aka it does not die. The spirit of man returns to God who gave it - Ecc 12:7. satan is an evil angel who fell from heaven - angels do not die.

Man is not immortal. Christ is THE immortal >>> The only Potentate, the King of kings, the Lord of lords, dwelling in Light which no man can approach, to whom is power and glory and honor forever

Man has a beginning and an end on earth. Jesus IS the beginning and the end, the Alpha and Omega.

We are the sons and daughters of God. Jesus IS THE Only Begotten Son of God.

Hi and why not EXPLAIN to him Job 1:6-12 !!

dan p

 

[Rosenritter]

Hi and why not EXPLAIN to him Job 1:6-12 !!

dan p

That's why the word "begotten" is there. There are "sons of God" but only one "begotten" Son of God. The former "sons of God" are created angels. We may be called "sons of God" through adoption. Jesus is the only begotten son of God. If you can show another Biblical instance calling someone else a "begotten" son of God I will pay attention.

 

[Cross Reference]

Angels can't procreate. Angels were individually created without blood or any other 'universal' biological connection by which salvation could be possible.