ECT God does NOT grant eternal life

[TweetyBird]

Keep in mind, Tweedy, that Jesus was a man who ended His natural life on earth and is now glorified to live forever as God, the complete Godhead in a glorified physical human Body. He was the only begotten of the Father but now has many brothers who have been and are continuing to be brought unto Glory as heirs of God and joint-heirs with Jesus, also begotten of the Father by a new birth from above.

This is true, but Jesus is still the only Begotten Son of God, which came forth from the Father's bosom. We are not equal to Christ and never can be.

OMT: When we die and if in Christ, our spirit and our soul will go to be with the Lord to await the first resurrection of which our body will be part of. That is part of the Ecc 12:7 verse.

If you are saying that our spirits/soulds join with the incorruptible body when Christ return, then we are in agreement.

The soul part being alive is that which Jesus spoke of: "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.. . . ." John 11:25-26 (KJV)

Yes, agree - we are forever with the Lord when we believe, having been translated into His Kingdom. We are just still in our corruptible bodies on earth, for now.

 

[TweetyBird]

Ecclesiastes does not say that the spirit that returns to God is a living or thinking or conscious person. That would be an assumption that is unjustified. That same book actually establishes the contrary... that the part that "thinks" or "knows" perishes.

Ecc 9:4-6 KJV
(4) For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
(5) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
(6) Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

So it seems that the "spirit which returns to God that gave it" is a quantity or a thing, rather than a person. The person themselves knows nothing. Not that they are dead, certainly not that they are alive, no love, hatred, or envy. No emotions, no thought, no consciousness. So far from proving that "spirit is immortal" Ecclesiastes demonstrates the opposite.

Hypothetically, I have 100 joules of electricity. I cannot kill electricity. Is that electricity therefore a being that cannot die thus it lives in conscious bliss or agony? No. Same as Solomon references spirit in this case. Back to Genesis, God breathed spirit into the dust and the result was a living soul. Separate the components again and man has no life, consciousness, or being. God will restore spirit when he wishes and then we will be able to think "Am I alive?"

I was not saying, and did not even hint, that we are conscious when our spirit returns to God. The spirit is not emotions or thought, but it is immortal. It always exists, either unto eternal life or eternal death - the second death which is eternal torment.

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

[Cross Reference]

This is true, but Jesus is still the only Begotten Son of God, which came forth from the Father's bosom. We are not equal to Christ and never can be.

Easy here because you are not taking this passage into consideration . . . that should excite you and not give cause for alarm for believing it:

"The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together." Romans 8:16-17 (KJV)

If you are saying that our spirits/soulds join with the incorruptible body when Christ return, then we are in agreement.
Yes, agree - we are forever with the Lord when we believe, having been translated into His Kingdom. We are just still in our corruptible bodies on earth, for now.

That is what the word sez! I believe it and am glad you believe it!

 

[Cross Reference]

"Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we [our souls] are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight): We are confident, I say, and willing rather [our souls] be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." . . . . . . . . . 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (KJV)

"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" John 11:26 (KJV)

 

[DAN P]

That's why the word "begotten" is there. There are "sons of God" but only one "begotten" Son of God. The former "sons of God" are created angels. We may be called "sons of God" through adoption. Jesus is the only begotten son of God. If you can show another Biblical instance calling someone else a "begotten" son of God I will pay attention.

Hi and first SATAN can and does come into the presence of a Holy God even in a fallen state >

If a believer is " in Christ " we technically are half way there and in the DEPARTURE /called by some THE RAPTURE we with then we will be immortal as we will then be a New Man in Christ , Eph 2:15 !!

dan p

 

[TweetyBird]

Easy here because you are not taking this passage into consideration . . . that should excite you and not give cause for alarm for believing it:

"The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together." Romans 8:16-17 (KJV)

Which does not address the fact that we are not THE Begotten Son of God aka Jesus Christ! We are with and in Christ forever, but we are not equal to Him.

 

[Cross Reference]

Which does not address the fact that we are not THE Begotten Son of God aka Jesus Christ! We are with and in Christ forever, but we ate not equal to Him.

I will not split hairs with you. Do you have siblings? Kindly address what joint-heir-ship means? Begin there before arguing.

I am finished. You are on your own.

 

[Rosenritter]

I will not split hairs with you. Do you have siblings? Kindly address what joint-heir-ship means? Begin there before arguing.

I am finished. You are on your own.

There's that bit that Christ IS God, and we are not.

 

[TweetyBird]

I will not split hairs with you. Do you have siblings? Kindly address what joint-heir-ship means? Begin there before arguing.

Whether or not one has siblings has nothing to do with being an adopted son/daughter of God. Was Jesus adopted? Did we come forth from the bosom of the Father? Did we die, as the Son of God did, for our sins? Put your thinking cap back on straight. It's on backward

I am finished. You are on your own.

Never alone ...

Matthew 28:20
.... and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

 

[Rosenritter]

I was not saying, and did not even hint, that we are conscious when our spirit returns to God. The spirit is not emotions or thought, but it is immortal. It always exists, either unto eternal life or eternal death - the second death which is eternal torment.

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

How do you torment something which has neither life, thought, or emotions? We know what death is like from experience, and we know what it is from revelation. We lose consciousness into sleep (the figure of the thing), we lose consciousness completely from blood-lack, and the bible tells us that actual death is the cessation of thought or existence.

Seeing that the second death is literally the second (ordinal) death on what basis do you presume that the second death is actually a type of life?

 

[Rosenritter]

"Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we [our souls] are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight): We are confident, I say, and willing rather [our souls] be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." . . . . . . . . . 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (KJV)

"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" John 11:26 (KJV)

The passage does not say "our souls." The definition of "soul" in Genesis is the whole man, body and spirit combined to form a living creature. Our "soul" cannot be absent from the body, thus your addition to scripture is noted as inaccurate. On the other hand, "absent from the body" is a metaphor for death that I can recognize. When does the bible say that we shall be present with the Lord?

1Th 4:16-17 KJV
(16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
(17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

As spoken by Paul, if we should fall absent from our body, we should be present with the Lord. If you paid attention to what Paul also says about how this is happen, he says it happens when Christ returns, and not before. See also 1 Corinthians 15, whole chapter.

1Co 15:50-52 KJV
(50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
(51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
(52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


As for the passage in John, which death is he referring to, the first death or the second death?

Final question, for you, Cross Reference: Do you have faith that God will raise us from the dead, and do we have to be conscious while we are dead for God to be able to raise us?

 

[TweetyBird]

How do you torment something which has neither life, thought, or emotions? We know what death is like from experience, and we know what it is from revelation. We lose consciousness into sleep (the figure of the thing), we lose consciousness completely from blood-lack, and the bible tells us that actual death is the cessation of thought or existence.

Seeing that the second death is literally the second (ordinal) death on what basis do you presume that the second death is actually a type of life?

It's not life at all, it's the second death - something the Bible describes and is unknown aka a mystery for now. If Jesus says that the worm does not die

Isaiah 66:24
And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Mark 9
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48 where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. 50 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

 

[Rosenritter]

It's not life at all, it's the second death - something the Bible describes and is unknown aka a mystery for now. If Jesus says that the worm does not die

Isaiah 66:24
And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Mark 9
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48 where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. 50 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

There is nothing mystical about worms Tweety. If you have ever lived someplace other than an urban environment you may have seen plenty.

Job 19:25-27 KJV
(25) For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
(26) And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
(27) Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

The fact that it references worms means that it is a physical destruction it speaks of. The fact that the worms die not means that nothing stops the worm from its intended task. When worms do not die, they continue to consume the corpse, they metamorphose, and fly away. Far from establishing "second death" as something mystical, you've actually defined it as something very real, the same type of death we see today.

 

[Rosenritter]

It's not life at all, it's the second death - something the Bible describes and is unknown aka a mystery for now. If Jesus says that the worm does not die

Isaiah 66:24
And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Mark 9
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48 where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. 50 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

Why would God threaten a punishment that we could not understand? Please define life.

 

[TweetyBird]

There is nothing mystical about worms Tweety. If you have ever lived someplace other than an urban environment you may have seen plenty.

Worms do die in earth time. We are not talking about earth time, but eternity where the worm dieth not.

Job 19:25-27 KJV
(25) For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
(26) And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
(27) Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

The fact that it references worms means that it is a physical destruction it speaks of. The fact that the worms die not means that nothing stops the worm from its intended task. When worms do not die, they continue to consume the corpse, they metamorphose, and fly away. Far from establishing "second death" as something mystical, you've actually defined it as something very real, the same type of death we see today.

The torment is forever. It's not physical flesh that is eaten by worms, it is "flesh" that does not die. These people are conscious and enduring torment for all eternity. That is what the Bible states. You can ask God about it at the end of this age, for now, it is a mystery, incomprehensible for man's wee little finite brain mass.

 

[TweetyBird]

Why would God threaten a punishment that we could not understand? Please define life.

God says a whole bunch of stuff in the Bible that we don't understand. Why do we need to understand it to believe it if He says it? It's not for us to know - it is not necessary for us to know. We are supposed to be focused on living for Him. That is why these things are a MYSTERY - HIDDEN from mankind.

 

[Clete]

Jesus gave up his spirit, it wasn't taken from him.

John 19:30 "So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, 'It is finished!' And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

That doesn't mean that those who killed him didn't kill him.

SEE! I can repeat myself too!

 

[Clete]

It is spiritual death because one does not have eternal life in Christ. The spirit of man or satan who is a spirit, does not die. That is how I define it. God told Abraham he would surely die if he ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil - it was spiritual death when he did - because he sinned, physical death took a lot longer. But Adam's spirit never died.

So why not agree to use the correct vernacular?

No one cares "how you define it". Words mean things and in order to have a productive conversation where you don't appear to be contradicting yourself or where you cause needless confusion, the defining of terms is necessary. It established common ground upon which the discussion can proceed.

Insisting on saying in one sentence that "God told Adam he would surely die if he ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil - it was spiritual death when he did...." and then in the very next sentence saying about the exact same person, "Adam's spirit never died." is either self-contradictory or intentionally confusing and/or misleading.

What possible motive could you have for wanting to insist on doing that? I don't get it.

 

[Clete]

God says a whole bunch of stuff in the Bible that we don't understand. Why do we need to understand it to believe it if He says it? It's not for us to know - it is not necessary for us to know. We are supposed to be focused on living for Him. That is why these things are a MYSTERY - HIDDEN from mankind.

This is a fine attitude toward things that actually cannot be understood due to a lack of information but we are never asked to leave our minds at the door of the church and to simply believe something blindly. God is the God of Light. Indeed, He is Logos (Logic), the Light of the world (John 1). Any doctrine that is irrational is false and ungodly by definition.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[patrick jane]

God says a whole bunch of stuff in the Bible that we don't understand. Why do we need to understand it to believe it if He says it? It's not for us to know - it is not necessary for us to know. We are supposed to be focused on living for Him. That is why these things are a MYSTERY - HIDDEN from mankind.

The mystery is Christ in you; the hope of glory -

The mystery is not hid anymore

Colossians 1:27 KJV - Colossians 1:25-26 KJV -