ECT God does NOT grant eternal life

[TweetyBird]

Lev 16:21-22 KJV
(21) And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
(22) And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

Rev 20:1-2 KJV
(1) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
(2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

The scapegoat isn't slain, it is bound and cast out by the hand of a "fit" man into the wilderness, away from the congregation of Israel. The serpent isn't slain at that time either, but bound by an angel and confined away from the rest of humanity. If you see this so far, do you also observe the Feast of Trumpets and the Day of Atonement that you might also have right to participate in those days?

I would like to see how consistent you are with this. At the spot where I get a "no" answer I can go on to illustrate my point.

The NT explains it this way:

Lev 16:15,16 Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the veil, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat: And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins...

Heb 9: 13,14,23,24 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? ... It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these... For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

==============

Lev 16:21,22 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.


Isa 53:6,11 ...the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all...for he shall bear their iniquities.


Heb 9:28; 13:12,13 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many... Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.

 

[jamie]

Who said anything about the devil being immortal? It does not say he is killed by being chained in the pit. The symbolism doesn't match. Chains bind, pits confine, but fire destroys.

Isaiah 14:12-20
"How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
For you have said in your heart:
‘I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’
Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.
Those who see you will gaze at you,
And consider you, saying:
‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
Who shook kingdoms,
Who made the world as a wilderness
And destroyed its cities,
Who did not open the house of his prisoners?’
All the kings of the nations,
All of them, sleep in glory,
Everyone in his own house;
But you are cast out of your grave
Like an abominable branch,
Like the garment of those who are slain,
Thrust through with a sword,
Who go down to the stones of the pit,
Like a corpse trodden underfoot.
You will not be joined with them in burial,
Because you have destroyed your land
And slain your people."

 

[TweetyBird]

Nope, Satan will die at least once and he could die twice depending on what he says and does when he is resurrected.

Only God is immortal.

satan is a spirit. all spirits are immortal.


Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

[Clete]

Bored enough to tell any conceited snot like you to take a hike. I should have dismissed you a while back for your incompetence and disregard for sincerely asked questions and kind replies you had and have no intention of responding to. Get going.

You have no authority to tell me to go anywhere.

And I've not done anything but respond directly to your posts. It is you who have ignored questions. All I've done is express frustration at the fact that you refuse to properly format your posts and don't make any sense half the time to the point that I literally resorted to asking others on this thread what the heck you were even talking about! I had to drag you kicking and scream practically just to figure out that you were attempting to make an argument that people can lose their salvation. There was over a hundred posts in the thread before that was ever made clear! And you're tell me that YOU'RE bored?! Give me a break!

I may stick around for a while just to see where this goes with musterion since he's made basically the same point I've been making (only he did it more eloquently than I did), especially since you think you have the authority to "send me packing".

 

[Rosenritter]

The NT explains it this way:

Lev 16:21,22 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.


Isa 53:6,11 ...the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all...for he shall bear their iniquities.


Heb 9:28; 13:12,13 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many... Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.

The second goat is not bruised, nor beaten, nor is his blood offered as any acceptable sacrifice for sin. Here's the whole text:

Isa 53:5-11 KJV
(5) But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
(6) All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
(7) He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
(8) He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
(9) And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
(10) Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
(11) He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

The second goat is not offered for sin. It was neither beaten, nor bruised, nor harmed in any way. It did not die. If by his stripes we are healed, and if the first goat is cut off from the land of the living, none of this applies to the second goat at all. Do not confuse the two. The devil is an impostor from the beginning, "Yeah, hath God not said?" The possible confusion may arise from the difference between one who pays the penalty of our transgressions on our behalf, and the one whose ultimately at the root of and to blame for sin in the world to begin with.

Also, the second goat is bound in Revelation. The first goat who was slain covers the transgressions of his people with his blood as he returns as King of Kings, the second goat is bound for a thousand years before he is judged.

Regardless, my question for Jamie is still out there. If she observes the Sabbaths does she observe all the Sabbaths? Including the ones symbolizing Christ's return and the Judgment? If you seek to keep the law, you had better be keeping the whole law, not just a small part. The last great day doesn't seem to be exclusive for those who were observing ancient Hebrew holy days.

Joh 7:37 KJV
(37) In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

Rev 21:6 KJV
(6) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

To him who is athirst, it says. But if you weren't observing the Sabbath of the Last Day of that Feast, does that mean that you have no right to participate in its fulfillment? I think God would rather you worshiped in understanding rather than ritual.

 

[Rosenritter]

satan is a spirit. all spirits are immortal.


Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Correction Tweety. Spirits die when God says they will die.

Eze 28:13-19 KJV
(13) Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
(14) Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
(15) Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
(16) By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
(17) Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
(18) Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
(19) All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

When the Bible applies "forever" to a state or action of a finite being, that state or action continues to apply for the duration of that being. The servant that was bound to his master "for ever" served until he or his master died. See Exodus 21:6, Deuteronomy 15:17.

Exo 21:6 KJV
(6) Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.



He who reads Revelation is expected to read it with the background of the inspired Hebrew scripture. The prophets say that the devil will be slain at the end of the world. It's written in Ezekiel and Isaiah. The devil is a finite being that exists at God's will. Regardless of how long God has use for the devil in the lake of fire, his end will be ashes, and never shall he be any more.

 

[jamie]

There were two goats. One was slain for our sins. The other was cast out and even the person that banished it to the wilderness had to be specially washed before he would be considered clean. Does that second goat really sound like Christ to you? Think about what the word "Christ" means. Doesn't the word mean "savior?" That second goat doesn't save anyone. The two goats are contrasted, not compared.

Christ means anointed, Jesus means Savior.

Leviticus 16:20 "And when he has made an end of atoning for the Holy Place, the tabernacle of meeting, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat."

The first goat atoned for the Holy Place, the tabernacle of meeting, and the altar.

Leviticus 16:21 "Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, confess over it all the iniquities of the children of Israel and all their transgressions concerning all their sins putting them on the head of the goat, and shall send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a suitable man."

Satan sinned. How can a sinner atone for the sin of others?

 

[jamie]

The problem with that interpretation is that the second goat isn't killed. The first goat is killed, but not the second. Roaming about a wilderness is not a proper descriptive of death - I don't think you prescribe to death as wandering about the ends of the earth, do you?

Jesus gave his life, no one took it from him. The Jew were accused of murder because they set him up to be crucified.

 

[Rosenritter]

Christ means anointed, Jesus means Savior.

Leviticus 16:20 "And when he has made an end of atoning for the Holy Place, the tabernacle of meeting, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat."

The first goat atoned for the Holy Place, the tabernacle of meeting, and the altar.

Leviticus 16:21 "Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, confess over it all the iniquities of the children of Israel and all their transgressions concerning all their sins putting them on the head of the goat, and shall send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a suitable man."

Satan sinned. How can a sinner atone for the sin of others?

It doesn't say that the second goat makes an atonement on behalf of anyone else, does it? Look carefully.

Lev 16:10 KJV
(10) But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

Jesus was not presented alive before the LORD to make atonement. Jesus was slain and thus made an atonement for everyone else. The devil, on the other hand, has to face the LORD and make his own atonement. If the law is a shadow of things to come, then we know that second goat will be cast out. Revelation it says the devil will be cast out away from the camp of the LORD, a thousand years before his judgment comes. Just like the second goat...

If the second goat is Christ, then who is the fit man that took him into the wilderness? And how long did Jesus stay in that wilderness? That second goat never appeared again in the camp of Israel. That doesn't seem to fit the Lamb of whom reigns with his saints for a thousand years.

Is there really a strong reason to object other than that your average commentary will disagree? Too much symbolism disagrees otherwise, and this is all about symbolism, isn't it?

 

[Rosenritter]

Jesus gave his life, no one took it from him. The Jew were accused of murder because they set him up to be crucified.

Act 3:13-15 KJV
(13) The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
(14) But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
(15) And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.


Jesus was killed. That describes the first goat, but not the second.

 

[TweetyBird]

Correction Tweety. Spirits die when God says they will die.

Eze 28:13-19 KJV
(13) Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
(14) Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
(15) Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
(16) By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
(17) Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
(18) Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
(19) All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

When the Bible applies "forever" to a state or action of a finite being, that state or action continues to apply for the duration of that being. The servant that was bound to his master "for ever" served until he or his master died. See Exodus 21:6, Deuteronomy 15:17.

Exo 21:6 KJV
(6) Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.



He who reads Revelation is expected to read it with the background of the inspired Hebrew scripture. The prophets say that the devil will be slain at the end of the world. It's written in Ezekiel and Isaiah. The devil is a finite being that exists at God's will. Regardless of how long God has use for the devil in the lake of fire, his end will be ashes, and never shall he be any more.

spirits do not die. satan's end is not his death, but his eternal torment.

 

[TweetyBird]

Act 3:13-15 KJV
(13) The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
(14) But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
(15) And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.


Jesus was killed. That describes the first goat, but not the second.

Hebrews clearly explains how Jesus fulfilled the atonement of both goats.

 

[jamie]

If you see this so far, do you also observe the Feast of Trumpets and the Day of Atonement that you might also have right to participate in those days?

So many great questions.

Matthew 28:19-20 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you..."

There is no example of anyone being baptized by anyone's authority (name) other than Jesus Christ.

There are instructions in the NT for observing the seven day feast of Passover during which unleavened bread is to be eaten.

1 Corinthians 5:7 "Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us."

And the weekly Sabbath.

James 2:12 "So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty."

James 1:25 "But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does."

 

[jamie]

Jesus was killed.

Matthew 20:28 "Just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve and to give His life a ransom for many."

Jesus gave his life, it wasn't taken from him.

 

[Rosenritter]

spirits do not die. satan's end is not his death, but his eternal torment.

So do you dismiss the Old Testament prophecies as irrelevant? By what means do you attribute immortality to the devil?

1Ti 6:14-16 KJV
(14) That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
(15) Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
(16) Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

If Jesus Christ only hath immortality, then for anyone else to have this attribute it must be specifically bestowed upon them at a later date. That's how the text reads.

 

[Clete]

spirits do not die. satan's end is not his death, but his eternal torment.

God is Life. Eternal separation from God is eternal death.

The correct way to phrase the point you are making is....

"Spirits do not cease to exist. Satan's end is not his non-existence, but his eternal torment."​

It's a rather small distinction but an important one when discussing this specific topic. It comes down to defining terms.

 

[Clete]

Jesus gave his life, it wasn't taken from him.

The two are not mutually exclusive. Both are true. Jesus both willingly laid down His life in that He could have stopped the whole thing at any time had He decided to do so and those who killed Him were guilty of Deicide (the murder of God), which they did not realize that they were committing (Luke 23:34).

 

[jamie]

The two are not mutually exclusive. Both are true. Jesus both willingly laid down His life in that He could have stopped the whole thing at any time had He decided to do so and those who killed Him were guilty of Deicide (the murder of God), which they did not realize that they were committing (Luke 23:34).

Christ knew what the deal was before he agreed to do it. No one forced him to become human, it was his decision.

 

[Tambora]

[h=2]God does NOT grant eternal life[/h]

Yes He does.

 

[Cross Reference]

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV)