ECT Get On the Road To Emmaus With Cleopas And His Friend Again

[Interplanner]

Then HOW did the UNBELIEVING Pharisees HAVE the kingdom of God?


Show me your "Greek original".

I have the preserved Word of God. To you think that God is incapable of giving us a Bible in our own language?

Apparently it existed already (the NT often speaks retroactively back into the OT about believers back then) and the Pharisees thought they did, but actually did not. So that somehow in Mt 21 it is taken away. That expression, again, probably has more to do with post-exile Judaism than we know. Likewise, I don't know how Pharisees were considered wineskins at all, but they were 'old' ones and 'new' ones were being developed.


re the Greek text
I don't any other out there than the huge production by ABS with the best-known editor name being Metzger, but Aland, Black (M. Black commentaries), Martini, and Wikgren on board. It also refers to the Inst. for NT Textual Research on the front page.

The point about the expressions used was not to be cute as you say, but that they are quite inclusive. In English, if we were describing a house's features, and got to the end of the list, we might say 'all of the above.' They are that kind of expression, implying many parts described earlier. He said that the things being fulfilled about him in the ministry/crucifixion and then in Acts 13 about all things promised earlier.

If you have particular insight how the resurrection event only is what is meant by Ps 2:7, Is 55:3, and Ps 16:10, please share that. Because they are clearly used about more than just the death to life rising; they are used because Israel's promises are met.

God is capable of giving us the Word in our language, but He didn't. It came historically in two (three if you count the oral stage of the NT in Aramaic). It came in cultures 2-3000 years ago very different from Anglo-American industrialized culture. He did give us many tools to go back and dig out what is there. Biblical language study is partly archeological.

 

[Right Divider]

Apparently it existed already (the NT often speaks retroactively back into the OT about believers back then) and the Pharisees thought they did, but actually did not. So that somehow in Mt 21 it is taken away. That expression, again, probably has more to do with post-exile Judaism than we know. Likewise, I don't know how Pharisees were considered wineskins at all, but they were 'old' ones and 'new' ones were being developed.

That is babbling double-talk. They "actually did not" have it and YET it was "somehow taken away".

This is a PRIME example of your confusion and ignorance.

BTW, How's Alice?

re the Greek text
I don't any other out there than the huge production by ABS with the best-known editor name being Metzger, but Aland, Black (M. Black commentaries), Martini, and Wikgren on board. It also refers to the Inst. for NT Textual Research on the front page.

The point about the expressions used was not to be cute as you say, but that they are quite inclusive. In English, if we were describing a house's features, and got to the end of the list, we might say 'all of the above.' They are that kind of expression, implying many parts described earlier. He said that the things being fulfilled about him in the ministry/crucifixion and then in Acts 13 about all things promised earlier.

If you have particular insight how the resurrection event only is what is meant by Ps 2:7, Is 55:3, and Ps 16:10, please share that. Because they are clearly used about more than just the death to life rising; they are used because Israel's promises are met.

God is capable of giving us the Word in our language, but He didn't. It came historically in two (three if you count the oral stage of the NT in Aramaic). It came in cultures 2-3000 years ago very different from Anglo-American industrialized culture. He did give us many tools to go back and dig out what is there. Biblical language study is partly archeological.

You're wrong. He did. You just don't want to believe it.

 

[God's Truth]

You contradict yourself all of the time. It's impossible to communicate with someone like you.

I do not do what you say I do.

Jesus came for his own, but most did not recognize him.

There were Jews who obeyed and had faith, and then there were the other Jews.

God cut off and hardened all the Jews who did not have faith already.

The rest of the Jews had faith and came to Jesus.

God gave them to Jesus, they now had to go through Jesus to remain God's.

John 17:6 "I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.

 

[Right Divider]

The kingdom of God is within a person's heart and mind.

That happens when the saved are given the Holy Spirit.

I do not do what you say I do.

When shown that the UNBELIEVING Pharisees HAD the kingdom of God, you are shown to be WRONG (like you are about most things concerning the Bible).

Are you going to CONTINUE to claim that the UNBELIEVING Pharisees were SAVED AND GIVEN THE HOLY SPIRIT?

Matt 21:43 (AKJV/PCE)​

(21:43) Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
​

 

[God's Truth]

When shown that the UNBELIEVING Pharisees HAD the kingdom of God, you are shown to be WRONG (like you are about most things concerning the Bible).

Are you going to CONTINUE to claim that the UNBELIEVING Pharisees were SAVED AND GIVEN THE HOLY SPIRIT?

Matt 21:43 (AKJV/PCE)​

(21:43) Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
​

I gave you scriptures that say they were cut off.

Believe what Jesus says.

 

[God's Truth]

But to arrive at true meaning, you want as much as possible, not as little. If the kingdom does not come with external signs, we want to know all the other texts like that and see them together.

John 10:35 If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came--and Scripture cannot be set aside--


You are just going to have to submit to the truth.

Did you read how Jesus says scripture.

That is singular.

 

[Right Divider]

I gave you scriptures that say they were cut off.

Believe what Jesus says.

So the UNBELIEVING Pharisees were saved and then UNSAVED?

You are a schizophrenic mess.

 

[Danoh]

Apparently it existed already (the NT often speaks retroactively back into the OT about believers back then) and the Pharisees thought they did, but actually did not. So that somehow in Mt 21 it is taken away. That expression, again, probably has more to do with post-exile Judaism than we know. Likewise, I don't know how Pharisees were considered wineskins at all, but they were 'old' ones and 'new' ones were being developed.


re the Greek text
I don't any other out there than the huge production by ABS with the best-known editor name being Metzger, but Aland, Black (M. Black commentaries), Martini, and Wikgren on board. It also refers to the Inst. for NT Textual Research on the front page.

The point about the expressions used was not to be cute as you say, but that they are quite inclusive. In English, if we were describing a house's features, and got to the end of the list, we might say 'all of the above.' They are that kind of expression, implying many parts described earlier. He said that the things being fulfilled about him in the ministry/crucifixion and then in Acts 13 about all things promised earlier.

If you have particular insight how the resurrection event only is what is meant by Ps 2:7, Is 55:3, and Ps 16:10, please share that. Because they are clearly used about more than just the death to life rising; they are used because Israel's promises are met.

God is capable of giving us the Word in our language, but He didn't. It came historically in two (three if you count the oral stage of the NT in Aramaic). It came in cultures 2-3000 years ago very different from Anglo-American industrialized culture. He did give us many tools to go back and dig out what is there. Biblical language study is partly archeological.

Yep to that 1st paragraph - in Matthew 19, the Lord promises authority to rule over the affairs of the Kingdom to the Twelve.

In Matthew 21, he reminds the Pharisees of what they have done with said "husbandry" and goes on to relate that they will be losing said authority.

In Matthew 23, they still have said Kingdom's authority and the Twelve are expected to honor it, but not how said rulers have been conducting themselves.

So yeah, they have it, and yet, not really, John 5 and John 8.

As for the balance of your post, there is much there worth studying out and reflecting on...

Thing is, the manuscripts/translations issue is one that has ended up dividing those within Mid-Acts who are extremists on one side of that issue, from those within Mid-Acts who are extremists on the other side of said issue.

The actual issue between the two being each their hypocrisy.

For within both sides of this manuscripts/translations issue within Mid-Acts, there are many who apparently to not hold to the need to spit on anyone who does not hold their particular view on it.

Grace MADs, one might call such "more nobler" MADs.

You have largely been dealing with the worst of two within the division between the extremists.

Again, that has nothing to do with whether or not one holds to Dispensationalism and or to Mid-Acts Dispensationalism.

Rather, with the level of compromise of grace that each individual has or has not knowingly sold out their conscience to, over time.

Result of such a repeated compromise of grace over time in such an individual?

Those long since entrenched in said grace-less intolerance towards anyone who opposes their views, will tend to be not only the most direct, but the most thin skinned.

And the fools actually not only believe they are "truth-smacking" but not negatively impacting the eternal reward of their inheritance.

So blind does such an individual become to his or her own double-standard.

There is no reasoning with such.

In such, one is basically dealing with Pharisees all over again.

Talk about such calling the kettle black.

All one can do is decide to by faith look at such each time, through the lens of Romans 5:8.

For absent of said obedience of faith to said lens as one's decided on perspective towards such individuals, one will end up just like them.

Thus, the sense of the Lord's instruction to the Twelve, there in Matthew 23...

 

[Danoh]

When shown that the UNBELIEVING Pharisees HAD the kingdom of God, you are shown to be WRONG (like you are about most things concerning the Bible).

Are you going to CONTINUE to claim that the UNBELIEVING Pharisees were SAVED AND GIVEN THE HOLY SPIRIT?

Matt 21:43 (AKJV/PCE)​

(21:43) Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
​

You're both off.

Per the righteousness of the Law, no, the Pharisees were not "saved."

At the same time, they not only did have the Kingdom, but were its rulers.

This is also the actual sense of Paul's Romans 11 Olive Tree analogy.

How that all Israelites had had access but access was not possession...

Possesion becoming possession when access was coupled with faith.

As when the door of faith was opened unto the Gentiles.

Acts 14:27 And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.

The door was access. It was not possession.

Said Gentiles were expected to walk through said now open door to the possession it now offered the Gentiles.

Said possession was by faith.

Acts 14:23 And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.

Access and possession are not the same thing.

The Pharisees had had access to the Kingdom and were even it's over-seers.

But they were whited sepulcres - within them had been a lack of the obedience of faith under the Law - of "do right by the Law we are under because this is what God commanded us through Moses."

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

In contrast to the obedience of faith under the Law expressed by the following individuals within that Nation...

John 1:40 One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ. 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone. 1:43 The day following Jesus would go forth into Galilee, and findeth Philip, and saith unto him, Follow me. 1:44 Now Philip was of Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter. 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph. 1:46 And Nathanael said unto him, Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip saith unto him, Come and see. 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! 1:48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee. 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel. 1:50 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these. 1:51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

There is a difference between access and possession.

Faith.

Paul's same exact Olive Tree anology's point, not only this side of the Cross, but this side of Unbelieving Israel's fall, in Romans 11.

Romans 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

When the time came to test the thing that differred within each Israelite, Unbelieving Israelites were found having been not of faith, but rather of mere, outward works only.

And now that the Gentiles were being offered not only direct access, but also temporarily, possession of the blessing said offer of access was offering possession of, was/is accessed, by faith.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Access and possession, or standing...are not...the same thing.

These things...differ.

 

[God's Truth]

You're both off.

Per the righteousness of the Law, no, the Pharisees were not "saved."

At the same time, they not only did have the Kingdom, but were its rulers.

This is also the actual sense of Paul's Romans 11 Olive Tree analogy.

How that all Israelites had had access but access was not possession...

Possesion becoming possession when access was coupled with faith.

As when the door of faith was opened unto the Gentiles.

Acts 14:27 And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.

The door was access. It was not possession.

Said Gentiles were expected to walk through said now open door to the possession it now offered the Gentiles.

Said possession was by faith.

Acts 14:23 And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.

Access and possession are not the same thing.

The Pharisees had had access to the Kingdom and were even it's over-seers.

But they were whited sepulcres - within them had been a lack of the obedience of faith under the Law - of "do right by the Law we are under because this is what God commanded us through Moses."

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

In contrast to the obedience of faith under the Law expressed by the following individuals within that Nation...

John 1:40 One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ. 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone. 1:43 The day following Jesus would go forth into Galilee, and findeth Philip, and saith unto him, Follow me. 1:44 Now Philip was of Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter. 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph. 1:46 And Nathanael said unto him, Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip saith unto him, Come and see. 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! 1:48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee. 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel. 1:50 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these. 1:51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

There is a difference between access and possession.

Faith.

Paul's same exact Olive Tree anology's point, not only this side of the Cross, but this side of Unbelieving Israel's fall, in Romans 11.

Romans 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

When the time came to test the thing that differred within each Israelite, Unbelieving Israelites were found having been not of faith, but rather of mere, outward works only.

And now that the Gentiles were being offered not only direct access, but also temporarily, possession of the blessing said offer of access was offering possession of, was/is accessed, by faith.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Access and possession, or standing...are not...the same thing.

These things...differ.

No I am not wrong.

The pharisees were the people who were cut off.

 

[God's Truth]

So the UNBELIEVING Pharisees were saved and then UNSAVED?

You are a schizophrenic mess.

Notice that you do not touch the scriptures I gave?

Address the scriptures which say people were CUT OFF AND THROWN OUT.

Do it now false accuser; I know you won't.

 

[Danoh]

No I am not wrong.

The pharisees were the people who were cut off.

As usual, you read your own ideas into a thing stated.

And they were also not the only ones cut off.

Also, they were never "saved" under that righteousness of the Law, to begin with, Luke 1:6.

Not that pointing this out to you will matter much, as you remain not only confused as anyone can be, where that righteousness of the Law still at work during Matthew thru John is concerned, but convinced in your error.

Romans 5:8 applies to us both, but you remain entrenched in your ignorance of this.

Nothing new there.

Thus, why I do not bother with you much.

You're as willfully married to your errors as many of those you go back and forth with remain married to theirs.

Result?

For what it is worth - Romans 5:8 towards you then; and nevertheless; deny it's FINISHED work how your ignorance might continue to.

 

[Right Divider]

Notice that you do not touch the scriptures I gave?

Address the scriptures which say people were CUT OFF AND THROWN OUT.

Do it now false accuser; I know you won't.

I will not chase all of your distractions.

Answer MY question first.

If the kingdom of God was HELD by UNBELIEVING Pharisees as Jesus said that it was in Matthew 21:43 KJV, then how can it be what you claimed that it was (inside of the hearts and minds of saved people)?

The kingdom of God is within a person's heart and mind.

That happens when the saved are given the Holy Spirit.

Why will you not admit that you are wrong when the EVIDENCE is so CLEAR that you are WRONG?

I know why.

 

[Tambora]

If the kingdom of God was HELD by UNBELIEVING Pharisees as Jesus said that it was in Matthew 21:43 KJV, then how can it be what you claimed that it was (inside of the hearts and minds of saved people)?

Precisely.

 

[God's Truth]

I will not chase all of your distractions.

Answer MY question first.

If the kingdom of God was HELD by UNBELIEVING Pharisees as Jesus said that it was in Matthew 21:43 KJV, then how can it be what you claimed that it was (inside of the hearts and minds of saved people)?


Why will you not admit that you are wrong when the EVIDENCE is so CLEAR that you are WRONG?

I know why.

The Jews were called God's children. God walked among them and blessed them. His Spirit was in the tent and later the temple. Not all Jews had faith, but the law was not based on faith. All a person had to do to belong to God was do the ceremonial works. God said He would make a new covenant that was based on faith. Many Jews were cut off and thrown out

 

[God's Truth]

As usual, you read your own ideas into a thing stated.

And they were also not the only ones cut off.

Of course they weren't the only ones cut off.

Also, they were never "saved" under that righteousness of the Law, to begin with, Luke 1:6.

They were saved as saved could be before Jesus.

When one died they went to Abraham.

Not that pointing this out to you will matter much, as you remain not only confused as anyone can be, where that righteousness of the Law still at work during Matthew thru John is concerned, but convinced in your error.

Tell me how much my pointing things out to you has helped you so much. Don't be a hypocrite.

Romans 5:8 applies to us both, but you remain entrenched in your ignorance of this.

Nothing new there.

Thus, why I do not bother with you much.

You're as willfully married to your errors as many of those you go back and forth with remain married to theirs.

Result?

For what it is worth - Romans 5:8 towards you then; and nevertheless; deny it's FINISHED work how your ignorance might continue to.

That scripture is about how the Gentiles didn't have to do what the Jews did.

We didn't have to get circumscribed before he would save us.

 

[Interplanner]

I don't put any scripture aside,not one. So how do you get I wouldn't put more together if there were more?

As for a true meanings, understanding is given to the obedient.

You sounded like you were advocating going out on a limb. Have you removed one eye and one hand? There's a verse that says to do so.

If you are sailing the Indian Ocean, and there are 50 stars to navigate by, why just use one?

 

[God's Truth]

You sounded like you were advocating going out on a limb. Have you removed one eye and one hand? There's a verse that says to do so.

How do you ever get that that scripture isn't good and understandable exactly as it is?

Matthew 5:30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.


Anyone who loves God obeys God and reads that scripture and says I don't want to lose my hand so I better stop sinning.

A person who does not love God enough and does not obey doesn't have understanding.

God gives understanding to those who obey Him.

You show you don't have enough understanding.

If you are sailing the Indian Ocean, and there are 50 stars to navigate by, why just use one?

I have learned not to use people's analogies that are not in the Bible. Your analogy doesn't mean much because it it not scripture.

 

[Interplanner]

How do you ever get that that scripture isn't good and understandable exactly as it is?

Matthew 5:30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.


Anyone who loves God obeys God and reads that scripture and says I don't want to lose my hand so I better stop sinning.

A person who does not love God enough and does not obey doesn't have understanding.

God gives understanding to those who obey Him.

You show you don't have enough understanding.



I have learned not to use people's analogies that are not in the Bible. Your analogy doesn't mean much because it it not scripture.

There are many similar analogies in the Bible which are true in themselves, not just because they are in the Bible.

 

[Right Divider]

The Jews were called God's children. God walked among them and blessed them. His Spirit was in the tent and later the temple. Not all Jews had faith, but the law was not based on faith. All a person had to do to belong to God was do the ceremonial works. God said He would make a new covenant that was based on faith. Many Jews were cut off and thrown out

You can try to evade the problem, but I will keep asking until you come up with a decent answer (which you can't because the facts contradict your statement).

If the kingdom of God was HELD by UNBELIEVING Pharisees as Jesus said that it was in Matthew 21:43 KJV, then how can the kingdom of God be what you claimed that it was (inside of the hearts and minds of saved people)?

Your claim is CONTRADICTORY to scripture. Confess your error and quit trying to hide it in plain site.