Shasta
Well-known member
The Holy Spirit draws people. If people listen then they can be saved. No one has to respond
Freewill religion is the Man of Sin !
- Thread starter beloved57
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The Holy Spirit draws people. If people listen then they can be saved. No one has to respond
beloved57
Well-known member
I have explained them already, did you understand them? Please review them back to me to show that you understand them!
beloved57
Well-known member
The World of the Elect !
The World of the Elect !
2 Cor 5:19
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Many false teachers have hijacked this scripture and twisted it to a most God dishonoring conclusion, that it speaks of all men without exception, yet that is a lie, for one, because all men without exception have the blessing of non imputation of sin, its reserved for the blessed of God as here Ps 32:1-2
Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
2 Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
Again Paul Rom 4:7-8
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
For many are going to die in their sins Jn 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Thats not even possible for the men and women in the world of 2 Cor 5:19 because no sin is charged to them, they are blessed, to be envied !
But now who specifically are these who have not their sins charged to them, or against them ? Why its Gods Elect Rom 8:33
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
The question is "Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect?"
This is stated because of non imputation of sin Rom 4:8;2 Cor 5:19.
The word impute in 2 Cor 5:19 is the greek word logizomai and does mean:
I reckon, count, charge with; reason, decide, conclude; think, suppose.
So the verse could properly read 2 Cor 5:19
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not charging their trespasses/sins unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Those of that world, God will not charge them with their sins, He most definitely will not lay sin to their charge as indicated in Rom 8:33 !
Both give credit to the death of Christ being the reason why for 2 Cor 5:19, the non imputation is because they have been imputed/charged to Christ, so making Him to be sin for them 2 Cor 5:21 and Rom 8:33 looks to Christ dying in Vs 34
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
God will not charge them because He charged them to Christ and He died for them already, because corresponding with 2 Cor 5:21 He was made sin for them, or a Sin Offering ! And so its easy to conclude who the World is of 2 Cor 5:19, Its the world of Gods elect whom He will not charge with sin Rom 8:33, because Christ died for them Vs 34 !
Non Imputation of sin, It has nothing to do with whether or not they believe, all that matters is that Christ died for them !
The World of the Elect !
2 Cor 5:19
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Many false teachers have hijacked this scripture and twisted it to a most God dishonoring conclusion, that it speaks of all men without exception, yet that is a lie, for one, because all men without exception have the blessing of non imputation of sin, its reserved for the blessed of God as here Ps 32:1-2
Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
2 Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
Again Paul Rom 4:7-8
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
For many are going to die in their sins Jn 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Thats not even possible for the men and women in the world of 2 Cor 5:19 because no sin is charged to them, they are blessed, to be envied !
But now who specifically are these who have not their sins charged to them, or against them ? Why its Gods Elect Rom 8:33
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
The question is "Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect?"
This is stated because of non imputation of sin Rom 4:8;2 Cor 5:19.
The word impute in 2 Cor 5:19 is the greek word logizomai and does mean:
I reckon, count, charge with; reason, decide, conclude; think, suppose.
So the verse could properly read 2 Cor 5:19
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not charging their trespasses/sins unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Those of that world, God will not charge them with their sins, He most definitely will not lay sin to their charge as indicated in Rom 8:33 !
Both give credit to the death of Christ being the reason why for 2 Cor 5:19, the non imputation is because they have been imputed/charged to Christ, so making Him to be sin for them 2 Cor 5:21 and Rom 8:33 looks to Christ dying in Vs 34
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
God will not charge them because He charged them to Christ and He died for them already, because corresponding with 2 Cor 5:21 He was made sin for them, or a Sin Offering ! And so its easy to conclude who the World is of 2 Cor 5:19, Its the world of Gods elect whom He will not charge with sin Rom 8:33, because Christ died for them Vs 34 !
Non Imputation of sin, It has nothing to do with whether or not they believe, all that matters is that Christ died for them !
Shasta
Well-known member
First of all let's define our terms, shall we? The word "reconcile" is katallaso which is a compound of two words: allaso ("to change") and kata ("down" to a precise point - bringing two together). Altogether katallássō means "decisively changed, reconciled" It can refer to estranged spouses who are at odds but then are brought into harmony (1 Cor 7:11). It has to do with the repair of a relationship that had been damaged. This means that reconciliation occurs when a person who is alienated from God is brought into fellowship with him by salvation.
I do not see that it is God who is "reserving" the blessing of forgiveness of sin for some people while preventing others from getting it. It is people who damn themselves by refusing to accept His gracious offer of salvation.
Disobedient Israel was an example of this.
"of Israel he (God through the prophet) says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people” (Romans 10:21)
Stretching out ones arms is means He is reaching out to recue them. In a Calvinistic universe this would be a hypocritical gesture since the God who is making the offer of help is Himself preventing them from responding by withholding divine grace. All the warnings, exhortations, admonitions of the prophets assume that people can listen and turn away from their sin. Calvinism makes this a puppet show.
But WHO are those whose sins are not imputed to them? The scripture describes who they are
5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, (Romans 4:5-8)
The verse is describing is a person who, having given up all attempts to be righteous, believes on Jesus thereby obtaining righteousness from God. No doubt the Holy Spirit is involved. "No man comes to me except the Father draws him." Drawing means leading not compelling people by force but, again, this process is not in the text.
By contrast, Calvinism claims that God forces people into obedience by a unilateral imposition of irresistible power but that idea cannot be found in this verse. It has to be smuggled in from sources outside the text.
To make your doctrine work you have to add ideas into the text so that "the world" is conflated to mean "the world of the elect" "This meaning is not supported by any translation of the Bible I have ever read, nor is it in the lexicons so where does it come from? Commentaries? You imagination? I suspect the latter.
I think your mistake is in assuming that "God in Christ reconciling the world to Himself" was an activity that took place on the cross for the WHOLE world. If that were the case and God "reconciled the (whole) world (of mankind) on the cross" then it would lead to the false doctrine of universal reconciliation. In an effort to avoid this you have attempted to re-define "the world" but there is no need to do that to arrive at a correct interpretation of the verse.
A careful look at the grammar, specifically the tenses of the verbs, will show that Paul was not talking about something Christ did for everyone in the whole world. He was talking about what Christ was doing while He was in the world of people.
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconcilING the world unto himself, not chargING their trespasses/sins unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation (2 Cor 5:19)
A. God WAS (being) in Christ
This word WAS is in the (imperfect) past tense meaning that Paul is viewing a past event (i.e., "God being in Christ") as ongoing and in progress. If it happened in the past then WHEN did that happen? It would have to have been when Jesus was on earth. It could not have been on the cross because the cross was a completed work.
B. reconcilING the world unto himself
The verb "reconciling" is in the present tense. Narratives were often told in the present tense if the narrator's purpose was to showing an activity IN PROGRESS or that something that was done AS A PRACTICE In all cases the activity is not shown as reaching completion.
This cannot be talking about Jesus work on the cross because that work was begun and finished in the past. The work of reconciling men to God was ongoing. Given that "reconcile" means to "restore to right relationship" we must conclude that restoring people to the Father was an ongoing activity in which Jesus participated.
This is, in fact, exactly what He did. As He preached, the Father drew people to him and many of these repented, believed in Him, received forgiveness and were reconciled to God. Because they were forgiven He did not "lay their sins to their charge."
The ministry of reconciliation is not just something Jesus did. We are supposed to participate in it as well.
C. and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
This "ministry of reconciliation" was committed to Jesus followers. Just as Jesus was reconciling people to God while He was on earth so are we to be reconciling them to God by leading them to Christ. While we are not redeemers ourselves we are supposed to be helping people get right with God.
The term "word" in the phrase "word of reconciliation" refers to the message of the gospel. The process of sharing it is evangelism. As Jesus preached the gospel so are we to follow in His footsteps.
The concept which you express as the "non-imputation of sin" is more clearly understood when it is expressed in the positive as the forgiveness of sin. When a person is forgiven it follows that their sins are not imputed to them and that they are declared to be righteous[/B].
John said "if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9)
But it is absolutely not true that this has nothing to do with what we believe. As we have already read:
5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, (Romans 4:5-8)
Being pardoned, experiencing the benefits of the cross most definitely depends on what a person believes.
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Shasta
Well-known member
Yes I think I do. You are saying that "God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself" can only be talking about the elect since only they (and not the world in general) are reconciled. The time when Christ would have done this was I presume on the cross. I cannot tell for sure because you never said when you thought it happened.
That is what I responded to. Now what is your response to my rebuttal?
Shasta
Well-known member
I think what you want is for me to make it simpler. Very well, there is a lot to say and clarifying the issues is always good for promoting a dialogue. As I see it the main point of both our views hinge on how we read this verse:
2 Corinthians 5:19
It seems that you think God could not have reconciled "the world" if "the world" means all of mankind because the scripture says the majority of mankind will never be saved. Therefore it must apply only to the "world" of the elect.
The problem is that you have misunderstood the meaning of the verse from the outset. "Reconciliation" in this verse is not talking about a once for all event but about something that was going on throughout Christ's ministry on earth. We believers are continuing this ministry.
Here the verse is in detail:
19 that is, that God was in Christ
reconciling the world to Himself,
not imputing their trespasses to them
and has committed to us
the word of reconciliation.
A. As I said "reconciliation" means repairing a damaged relationship so two estranged parties are brought into fellowship.
B. The verb "reconcilING" has an ING on it indicating that it is a present tense verb. Narrators often used the present tense to describe a past event when they wanted to describe it happeningin progress - like watching a scene unfold in a motion picture.
C. The point is Paul is not showing "reconciliation" as a finished act as he might have if he had been talking about what Christ did on the cross. Instead he is showing it as an ongoing activity.
D In this verse, Jesus is seen reconciling men to God. As the Spirit drew men to him, they would be brought to repentance and, believing on Him, they were granted forgiveness.
E."Not imputing their sins" is the same as granting forgiveness.
Since we also have the "ministry of reconciliation" we can assume it is not about something He did on the cross but something He did that we also can do.
F. The end result of this was that they were reconciled to the Father. This is something Jesus did throughout His ministry on earth.
G. Christ has given to US the WORD of reconciliation.
The WORD of reconciliation is synonymous with preaching the gospel. As Christ preached the gospel he was spreading abroad the "seed of truth." However, although the sower in the parable sent seed out to everyone around him only 1/4 of the seeds survived.
H. Jesus was involved in bringing men into right relationship with the Father through preaching the gospel. Now, the same "word of reconciliation has been given to His people, the Church. Just like Jesus we are to bring men into fellowship with God THROUGH the Son.
I.He is NOT talking about us saving the whole world. That would be impossible since most men will not choose to submit to the call. Still, our ministry is to reach out to the whole world. Just as Jesus reached out to those he encountered but not all of them listened so will many people not listen to our testimony.
J. The phrase "God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself" seems to trouble you. Perhaps you are thinking 'if God reconciled the world everyone would be saved.' This heretical idea is called universal reconciliation and I do not ascribe to it. In order to avoid this interpretation you have come up with a special way to interpret the term the world so that it reads the world of the elect. The problem is there is no basis in the original languages to do this. All it amounts to is adding the words (of the elect) into the text.
However, there is no need to create a special ELECT WORLD if you carefully stick to the grammar of the text
beloved57
Well-known member
Evasion and rabbit trail!
Shasta
Well-known member
My comments were about the proper interpretation of 2 Cor 5:19 which is key scripture we are discussing. It is the verse where you claim to have gotten your absurd idea that "the world" means "the (elect) world." Since this verse was central my comments on it were neither an evasion or a rabbit trail.
What I think is that for whatever reason you are having a hard time digesting the language and concepts. Hence you keep asking me to explain and re-explain it. What is it that you do not understand?
Shasta
Well-known member
"Freewill" was a term used universally by the early theologians, teachers and apologists of the Church before Augustine. They did not mean to convey the idea of salvation by works (which they renounced) only that man had volition. Augustine smuggled notions like "inability" and "predestination" into the Church from Manichaeism, a Gnostic cult he had been a member of before he converted to Christianity. Earlier Christian teachers back to the First Century had steadfastly rejected "inability" and "pre-determinism" as of pagan origin. Augustine was not aware of the opposition because he did not bother to learn Greek.
Augustine's doctrines found a home in Western Christianity. First it was taken up into Catholocism and much later into Calvinism. Calvin was an enthusiastic follower of Augustine. On the other hand, Eastern Christianity maintained the more ancient belief in freewill and denied Augustine's doctrine of "original sin."
That is where this whole debate originated.
beloved57
Well-known member
Evasion and rabbit trail!
Shasta
Well-known member
I interpreted the scripture under discussion - the one that is central to your discovery of that imaginary concept of Elect World. Since you do not know how to deal with my objections you pretend I am being evasive. Then you go to do what you often do - sound the monotonous drumbeat of repetition hoping the other person will give up and go away.
beloved57
Well-known member
Since you are not going to do as I asked, we will discontinue this for a while !
Shasta
Well-known member
Right. That's why you are leaving. You talk about evasions and rabbit trails. You are stuck on John Calvin's Habit-Trail and cannot even see it. When presented with its contradictions and exegetical incongruities you simply take another run around it.
Well ive been reading up on the early fathers especially origen, For Origen, and for the other Greek Fathers, a person who consistently chooses evil is mentally ill. And Christ, the Logos, is the great healer – there is no illness of the soul he cannot heal.
This theme of our dignity in freedom is one that Origen found throughout the Bible.
When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him that God may be all in all. (1 Corinthians 15:28, English Standard Version)
This text speaks of submission of all to Christ, after evil and death (physical and spiritual) cease to exist. This submission must be voluntary. For Origen, freewill was paramount (mainly against the Gnostics who believed in predestination) and voluntary submission is the only thing that is worthy of God, for God is not an earthly king who crushes people into submission.
Btw im not a great fan of augustine.
Our will is always free but our choice of evil comes from our lack of knowledge and this choice is therefore never really free. We never choose evil because it is evil but because we mistake it for something else that is good. In this vein Gregory of Nyssa argued that Adam and Eve ate the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil because it looked good.
Shasta
Well-known member
I believe when all things are "summed up in Christ" every sentient being who there will have freely chosen it to be their destiny
Augustine interrupted the transmission of the gospel that had continued unbroken since the days of the Apostles. Because Augustine could not read Greek he was unaware of the views of his predecessors. His Latin dominance further hindered his ability to read and interpret the original text of scripture. Possibly the worst SINGLE error arising from this brought about the institution of infant baptism and the doctrine of infant damnation, both of which Calvin believed. Calvin was an Augustinian groupie who quoted his teacher extensively in his Institutes
Take a look at this:
http://www.gentlewisdom.org/246/augustines-mistake-about-sin/
Too bad you can't take a long vacation to the Himalayas and live
among the Yeti for about 25 year's or so?
Nanja
Well-known member
You have precisely described the World of 2 Cor. 5:19 with correlating scriptures.
The only world whose sins were charged / imputed to Christ is The Elect World
Chosen in Him before time to have forgiveness of sins Eph. 1:7. The same are
the Sheep He gave His Life for John 10:11, 15. Their iniquity was laid upon Him in their stead.
Is. 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way;
and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Only Christ's Sheep are Righteous because their sins were imputed to Him,
their Covenant Head and Surety Heb. 7:22; 1 Pet 2:25.
But the rest of humanity, the goats, shall remain still in their sins Mat. 25:33, 41, 46.
They are the ungodly remnant being reserved unto the Day of Judgment to be punished 2 Pet. 2:9; Rev. 22:11,
which, according to God's Purpose, He deliberately willed to create them as vessels of His wrath Rom. 9:22.
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