Freak challenges "The Plot" over miracles

[Freak]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Freak,

For the last time your Biblical position is that miracles have not ceased and my Biblical position is that they have.

Let me remind you of the biblical position...

First of all, we know in the Holy Scripture that it declares that spiritual gifts, which includes the gift of miracles, are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42). Nowhere in Scripture are we told this gift was taken away from the church.

Secondly, at least six times in Paul’s writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christ’s example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Clete, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.

Thirdly, God's Word tells us that miracles have a divine purpose that God promises will be carried out:

...how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

God says He uses miracles to testify, to confirm of His goodness, His glory, His salvation. Who are you to tell us God doesn't have a purpose for miracles when in fact He does?

The point is that my position is in agreement with reality in that any evidence of miracles is totally absent.

But they are not. Someone has already testified of a miracle on here...me, Godrulz, and theo. But that is besides the point, the bible, our objective standard for truth declares that miracles still occur. This alone defeats your position once for all.

Unless you can show that miracles are in fact occurring then the weakness of your position is self-evident.

Let's go to the source of truth...

Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

So put up or shut up Freak.

I have given you evidence..God's Word. Either accept it or shut up.

 

[Clete]

Godrulz,

I have copied a small sampling of miracles and there results from The Plot. It is VERY incomplete and intentionally so. After all, Bob likes to sell these books and it wouldn't do for me to be giving it away in chunks! There are a few here that actually have somewhat positive outcomes but I could have quoted page after page where there isn't a single response that could be construed in any way to be positive. It's no wonder that God wanted to destroy Israel so many times! He was beating His head against a brick wall!

Jesus turn water into wine (Jn. 2:9) - Jesus' disciples believe (Jn. 2:11), Temple complex ignores His ministry (Jn. 2:15), Jews ask Jesus for a "sign" (Jn. 2:18)

Jesus heals nobleman's son (Jn. 4:50) - Nobleman's family believes (Jn. 4:53)

Jesus heals a 38-year infirmity (Jn. 5:8) - Jews seek to kill Jesus (Jn. 5:16)

Jesus heals the man born blind (Jn. 9:7) - Jews admit miracle, deny Christ (Jn. 9:18-34)

Jesus raises Lazarus (Jn. 12:28) - Many believe (Jn. 11:45), But some inform Pharisees (Jn. 11:46), Pharisees plan to kill Him (Jn. 11:47-53), Priests seeks to arrest Him (Jn. 11:54-57)

Voice from heaven endorses Jesus (Jn. 12:28) - Men intentionally misunderstand (Jn. 12:29-30)

"Jesus did many other signs" (Jn. 20:30) - No response in the text

Speaking in foreign languages (Acts 2:4-11) - Some were amazed and perplexed (Acts 2:12), "Others mocked" (Acts 2:13), 3000 repent at Peter's "word" (Acts 2:41)

Apostles do signs and wonders (Acts 2:43) - Conversions occurred daily (Acts 2:47)

Peter heals lame man (Acts 3:6-11) - Sanhedrin arrests apostles (Acts 4:3), 2000 "heard the word" and repent (Acts 4:4), Council threatens apostles (Acts 4:17,21,29)

Believer's assembly place shaken (Acts 4:31) - Believers "spoke with boldness" (Acts 4:31), Ananias lied to God and apostles (Act5:1-3)

Stephen does signs and wonders (6:8) - Synagogue disputes Stephen (Act 6:9), Council accuses Stephen (Acts 6:11), Saul & council kill Stephen (7:58-60)

Paul does miracles in Iconium (Acts 14:3) - Iconium rulers try to kill Paul (Acts 14:5)

Paul heals a cripple in Lystra (Acts 14:8-10) - People worship Paul (Acts 14:11-18), Men of Iconium, Lystra stone Paul (Acts 14:19)



I want to make clear that I post this information to establish, to some degree, some of the Biblical arguments that I have ventured to make on this thread. With that having been done, however I would emphasize that the thrust of my primary argument isn't a Biblical argument but a logical one. And before Freak goes ballistic I will go ahead and repeat once again that my position is BASED on a Biblical premise not an exclusively logical one. I am simply arguing this issue from a point of logic because it lends itself to such an examination easily and a Biblical debate would nearly require the rewriting of Bob's book (or at least five chapters of it) and such a debate would almost certainly be fruitless considering who my primary opponent is.
If you (Godrulz) wish to debate or discuss Acts 9 Dispensationalism and its ramifications after you have read at least the first four chapters of The Plot, I would be more that happy to do so but on a different thread.

God bless you all! (Even you Freak )

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

 

[godrulz]

I am surprised in 25 years that I have not heard of Acts 9 dispensationalism. I look forward to gaining an understanding of its position.

Freak keeps giving you homework. Have you answered his passages on this thread? Post #s?

The verses you gave are not exhaustive and are historical narratives, not didactic (teaching) passages (like some of Freak's). Some of your verses also seem to support positive aspects of miracles. I honestly do not think your position is tenable just because some reacted negatively. In Acts, it records a response that some jeered, some deliberated and waited, and some believed in response to the preaching of the resurrection. Man's reaction (+ve or -ve) does not dictate God's agenda (gospel, signs and wonders). I think your interpretation grid is too narrow.

I do not think it is fair to say there is no evidence for miracles today. Do not be like the proverbial ostrich in the sand.

 

[theo_victis]

Clete-

"So put up or shut up Freak. Show me a real miracle or admit that they haven't been happening."

Miracles are kinda hard to post on a board... lol

You wont believe anyways. Your too skeptical. Your to focused on reality versus the nature of God. God is above the laws of the Universe. He can do whatever he pleases. Including miracles....

Hey Clete you put up or shut up... Put up some real evidence they dont happen. All your doing is claiming were lying... or that freak is lying. But where is your evidence? thats right you have none.

Let me ask you a question:

Why does it matter to you if miracles happen or not? Why all the fuss?

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by godrulz

I am surprised in 25 years that I have not heard of Acts 9 dispensationalism. I look forward to gaining an understanding of its position.

Freak keeps giving you homework. Have you answered his passages on this thread? Post #s?

The verses you gave are not exhaustive and are historical narratives, not didactic (teaching) passages (like some of Freak's). Some of your verses also seem to support positive aspects of miracles. I honestly do not think your position is tenable just because some reacted negatively. In Acts, it records a response that some jeered, some deliberated and waited, and some believed in response to the preaching of the resurrection. Man's reaction (+ve or -ve) does not dictate God's agenda (gospel, signs and wonders). I think your interpretation grid is too narrow.

I do not think it is fair to say there is no evidence for miracles today. Do not be like the proverbial ostrich in the sand.

:up: Clete's logic is extremely flawed. Is premise is build on the negative responses from those who witnessed a miracle. This leads him to believe miracles have ceased. Quite bizarre. Someone can only say the same thing about the preaching of the gospel. Those whom witnessed the preaching of the gospel, generally speaking, were indifferent, offended ("preaching of the cross is foolishness to those perishing"). But, we still preach the gospel for it's the power of God unto salvation.

We still embrace and desire miracles, for we still desire to see people experience the ministry of healing & deliverance from demons. Clete's view on miracles does violence to the Body of Christ's mission to heal the sick and deliver those in bondage. We know in the Holy Scripture that it declares that spiritual gifts, which includes the gift of miracles, are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42). Nowhere in Scripture are we told this gift was taken away from the church.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by godrulz

Freak keeps giving you homework. Have you answered his passages on this thread? Post #s?

I have intentionally disregarded most of his Biblical arguments because, as I've said, this issue can be resolved quite nicely by the presentation of extrabiblical, verifiable physical evidence that physical miracles have happened in modern times.
The absence of such evidence does not prove that my entire theological construct is correct, only that this one conclusion that flows from my theology is correct. Conversely the presentation of some sort of proof that physical miracles have continued to the present time would prove yours and Freak's theological conclusion but not necessarily your entire theological construct by which you came to that conclusion. The point being that you and Freak probably did not come to the conclusion that miracles have continued by the same reasoning and you may therefore have you own disagreements with Freak on more minor issues and yet a third person, Theo for example, may have yet another mid set that led him to this conclusion, who knows and who wants to open that big fat can of worms. If we simply focus on determining whether or not physical miracles are in fact actually happening then we can all avoid the headaches involved in trying to reconstruct someone else’s theology from the ground up.

The verses you gave are not exhaustive and are historical narratives, not didactic (teaching) passages (like some of Freak's).

I believe this to be somewhat of a false dichotomy. Are you saying that the Bible does not teach us through the use of history?

Some of your verses also seem to support positive aspects of miracles. I honestly do not think your position is tenable just because some reacted negatively.

Haven't I already said more than once that when the reaction to a miracle is positive that reaction is acknowledged? I have never said that absolutely every single person who ever witnessed a miracle hated God. What I have said is hat it is more than just "some" that "reacted negatively". In fact it is the positive responses that are a tiny minority.

In Acts, it records a response that some jeered, some deliberated and waited, and some believed in response to the preaching of the resurrection. Man's reaction (+ve or -ve) does not dictate God's agenda (gospel, signs and wonders). I think your interpretation grid is too narrow.

Well please don't read too much into this. The generally negative reaction to miracles is simply one reason that God would choose not to perform them. It is not the only or even the primary reason that I believe that He has stopped. Bob's chapter on miracles goes on for 71 pages establishing in several ways that miracles are not to be expected at this time.

I do not think it is fair to say there is no evidence for miracles today. Do not be like the proverbial ostrich in the sand.

Nobody has given me any to ignore yet, Godrulz! None! Not even one single piece of evidence that can in any way be verified. For that matter, nobody has even given me anything that could honestly be called a miracle never mind evidence that it actually happened.

Resting in His Sufficient Grace,
Clete

 

[godrulz]

Exactly. Sounds more than reasonable (Freak). Volumes can be written saying that God birthed His church in power, but now resorts to natural means?! The Spirit of God blows like the wind. I am thankful His reality is still demonstrated today in a supernatural way. I love my anti-charismatic friends, but honestly believe they are wrong on this point (charismata, healing, deliverance, signs/wonders). Word + Spirit= truth. I must reject a view that limits the Sovereign God. There really is not a good reason for Satan to run rampant using supernatural wiles while God and His Church are left to impotent, natural means.

Experience is one thing, but I think there is merit to exegeting Freak's passages. Historical narratives do have truth content, but a didactic passage provides doctrine. I think Clete is reading an assumption into and coming to a wrong conclusion from the list of historical narrative miracles. This would be avoided by balancing the narratives with didactic passages.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by theo_victis

Clete-

"So put up or shut up Freak. Show me a real miracle or admit that they haven't been happening."

Miracles are kinda hard to post on a board... lol

Names, phone numbers, addresses, verifiable details, etc. aren't hard at all to post on a board.

You wont believe anyways. Your too skeptical.

You could be right! I've never been presented with any evidence before so I couldn't say. Let's cross that bridge when we get to it, shall we?

Your to focused on reality versus the nature of God.

The nature of God is reality!

God is above the laws of the Universe. He can do whatever he pleases. Including miracles....

No kidding! I have not denied this.

Hey Clete you put up or shut up... Put up some real evidence they don’t happen.

The absence of evidence that they have happened is evidence that they have not. As is the overwhelming positive reaction to the so called miracles that have been brought up so far on this thread.

All your doing is claiming were lying... or that freak is lying.

Freak is a liar in that he is intellectually dishonest. He intentionally argues against points that have not been made and then thinks that he had really done something great. If he were simply misunderstanding my argument it would be different but hat is not the case.
However I do not believe that either you or Freak are making things up when it comes to believing in miracles. I simply believe that you have both been deceived, either by your own selves or by others or both, but being wrong is not the same as lying.

Let me ask you a question:
Why does it matter to you if miracles happen or not? Why all the fuss?

It matters for the same reason that it matters that we are not to place ourselves under the law. It also matters because God wants us to live in accordance with reality so that unbelievers don't think Christians are nut cases. It also matters because miracles foster unbelief not faith. It matters for a lot of reasons.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

 

[godrulz]

It also matters because the Church will be disobeying the Great Commission preaching the gospel without power and signs following. It matters that the ministry of Jesus will be limited. He came to oppose sin, sickness, and Satan. The Church with the Spirit are to continue this ministry. Believers will remain sick and in bondage, while unbelievers may not be reached as effectively. The Spirit is grieved and quenched by bad theology or unbelief. It is not a salvific issue, but is important for the glory of God and the good of man.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by Freak

:up: Clete's logic is extremely flawed. Is premise is build on the negative responses from those who witnessed a miracle. This leads him to believe miracles have ceased. Quite bizarre.

If this were true it would be bizarre. Fortunately for me, it's not true.
I have never said that my premise is built upon the negative relation to miracles, only that this is ONE reason why God would choose to not perform them in the Dispensation of Grace which is rooted solely in faith.

Someone can only say the same thing about the preaching of the gospel. Those who witnessed the preaching of the gospel, generally speaking, were indifferent, offended ("preaching of the cross is foolishness to those perishing"). But, we still preach the gospel for it's the power of God unto salvation.

Miracles and the gospel are not the same things Freak! It is the Gospel that people reject more readily when they witness a miracle. You are a veritable straw man factory!

We still embrace and desire miracles, for we still desire to see people experience the ministry of healing & deliverance from demons.

It is an evil and adulterous generation that seeks after a sign.
I think it was Jesus who said something along those lines.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

 

[theo_victis]

here is a link to my teams trip update logs:

http://www.adventures.org/a/reports/r3re.asp?id=625

okay, just read those posts by our team leaders and there is a testimony for what i was speaking of. (read the second one down)

The miracles i saw:

a women walk who wasnt able to for 4 or 5 years i cant quite remember the number

a team member being healed

a guards swollen ankle being healed

a skin disease or rash ( i am obviously not a doctor) being healed

and myself being healed from malaria

those and the miracles from the bible i claim as truth. I hope the link satisfies you. I am not going to give out addresses and phone #s because it wouldnt be fair to their privacy. But i know they would testify to what i said. And the website should as well.

 

[theo_victis]

The absence of evidence that they have happened is evidence that they have not. As is the overwhelming positive reaction to the so called miracles that have been brought up so far on this thread.

That is not evidence that is ignorance.

It is an evil and adulterous generation that seeks after a sign.

and you arent mister show me a miracle!!!!!! things can go to ways...

However I do not believe that either you or Freak are making things up when it comes to believing in miracles. I simply believe that you have both been deceived, either by your own selves or by others or both, but being wrong is not the same as lying.

How am i decieved? Paul must have been decieved when he saw a vision on the way to damascus!!! Surely that wasnt God! lol lol lol

The disciples must have been liars and decieved when they thought Jesus' body was ressurrected from the dead. Christians must be decieved.

See, if your going to apply your logic to me apply it to everything for i have just as much proof as the disciples did that there miracles and the things they experianced occurred.

It also matters because miracles foster unbelief not faith. It matters for a lot of reasons.

THey do foster unbelief that is true. But they also create stronger faith. Who says the miracles are for the unbeliever? Another point i will throw at you is a lot of times the hardest things we deal with is truth. When you see the truth it is beckoning for you to change your life and a lot of unbelievers are unwilling to give up there lives, carry their crosses and change their lives.


It goes both ways. Dont criticize God. God obviously uses them for a reason. like i said before miracles are for the unbeliever/reciever and the believer/giver.

The unbeliever:

so they will recieve the effects of the miracle.
so their beliefs will be challenged

Believer:

To strengthen the faith
to do the service of God



there you go....

 

[LightSon]

Originally posted by theo_victis
...
The miracles i saw:

a women walk who wasnt able to for 4 or 5 years i cant quite remember the number

a team member being healed

a guards swollen ankle being healed

a skin disease or rash ( i am obviously not a doctor) being healed

and myself being healed from malaria

those and the miracles from the bible i claim as truth. I hope the link satisfies you. I am not going to give out addresses and phone #s because it wouldnt be fair to their privacy. But i know they would testify to what i said. And the website should as well.

Many folks (saved and unsaved) have recuperated from physical ailments without a faith healer being present or single prayer being offered. God designed the human body to "get well". Is it a miracle when anyone recovers from a disease? If so, these are what I call the "covet" miracles.

Have you ever raised someone from the dead? Have you ever made someone who was born blind to see? Or have you ever been a witness to it?

Suppose I buy into what you are saying. Can we go find a quadriplegic and ask God to heal them on the spot? Is God obligated to do this? Have you ever seen this level of miracle?

If God is doing overt miracles today, I would sincerely like to know this. So far all you and Freak have offered is ambiguous at best. I do not question God, His Word or His ability. I simply have a sense that God chooses not to work in an overt way at this time. Prove me wrong by showing me a person alive today who was documented as dead for 3 days and resuscitated.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by godrulz
I think Clete is reading an assumption into and coming to a wrong conclusion from the list of historical narrative miracles. This would be avoided by balancing the narratives with didactic passages.

You might have a point here if there were only 10 or 12 examples to pull such information from and if this were the only source that brought me to this conclusion. Fortunately neither happens to be the case. There are over 300, that's three HUNDRED miracles recorded and we can look at the results of every single one of them. And as I said before, this is not what I base my position on in the first place. My theological position is quite complex and speaks to this issue from several different directions. The only reason I posted this hand full of examples is because I had put forward the idea that miracles foster unbelief and I was asked to establish that and I wished to grant that request.
So one last time so that there can be no confusion...
The fact that the general reaction to miracles is unbelief is NOT the basis upon which I draw the conclusion that miracles no longer happen. (But it sure doesn’t hurt my case any either.)

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by LightSon

Many folks (saved and unsaved) have recuperated from physical ailments without a faith healer being present or single prayer being offered. God designed the human body to "get well". Is it a miracle when anyone recovers from a disease? If so, these are what I call the "covet" miracles.

Have you ever raised someone from the dead? Have you ever made someone who was born blind to see? Or have you ever been a witness to it?

Suppose I buy into what you are saying. Can we go find a quadriplegic and ask God to heal them on the spot? Is God obligated to do this? Have you ever seen this level of miracle?

If God is doing overt miracles today, I would sincerely like to know this. So far all you and Freak have offered is ambiguous at best. I do not question God, His Word or His ability. I simply have a sense that God chooses not to work in an overt way at this time. Prove me wrong by showing me a person alive today who was documented as dead for 3 days and resuscitated.

Don't hold you breath Lightson! I've been asking for the same thing for almost 300 posts now. I'm beginning to think they don't have anything to show us.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by theo_victis

That is not evidence that is ignorance.

Yeah, okay, what ever.

and you aren’t mister show me a miracle!!!!!! things can go to ways...

Stop arguing against yourself! When I ask you to show me a miracle, I'm challenging you to prove that what you claim is happen, is in fact actually happening. I am not asking God to perform a miracle you ding bat! Nor would I want Him too. I'm not just spewing words when I say that I am resting in His SUFFICIENT Grace, I actually mean it.

How am I deceived? Paul must have been deceived when he saw a vision on the way to Damascus!!! Surely that wasn’t God! lol lol lol

Surely you must be Freak logged in under a different user name! I thought for sure he was the only one capable of such a lunatic argument as this!
Are you suggesting that you have seen a vision of Jesus Christ? Surely not! Perhaps your suggesting that I deny that any miracle has ever happened. No? Then what? What the hell point could you possibly be making that would make any sense whatsoever?
If you cannot argue the points I bring up do not just start marking crap up and then argue with that. It makes you look stupid and pisses me off!

The disciples must have been liars and deceived when they thought Jesus' body was resurrected from the dead. Christians must be deceived.

I take back what I said about not considering you a liar. There is no possible way that you could have misunderstood my position to this extent. I have already twice given you access to geologic and historical evidence for the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Further to suggest that I do not believe in the resurrection directly implies that I am not even a Christian. I demand that you repent and apologize for this lie!

See, if your going to apply your logic to me apply it to everything for I have just as much proof as the disciples did that there miracles and the things they experienced occurred.

Really? The present it! I'd love to see this proof of yours. I can guarantee that the apostles would have been able to do so had someone asked them to just as Jesus did.

They do foster unbelief that is true. But they also create stronger faith. Who says the miracles are for the unbeliever?

Nobody has said that they are for the unbeliever. You've missed the point and I don't feel like explaining it for a fiftieth time.

Another point i will throw at you is a lot of times the hardest things we deal with is truth. When you see the truth it is beckoning for you to change your life and a lot of unbelievers are unwilling to give up there lives, carry their crosses and change their lives.

Okay maybe you didn't miss the point after all. People's natural reaction to having the truth shoved down their throat is to shove back.

It goes both ways. Don’t criticize God. God obviously uses them for a reason.

I don't criticize God at all. He did indeed have a reason for miracles. I submit simply that He has a reason for not performing them right now.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

 

[theo_victis]

this is from lightson-

Many folks (saved and unsaved) have recuperated from physical ailments without a faith healer being present or single prayer being offered. God designed the human body to "get well". Is it a miracle when anyone recovers from a disease? If so, these are what I call the "covet" miracles.

So it just so happens that after my team prayed over a little african boy his skin disease disappeared. It must of been the body healing itself..... instantly right before our eyes... and like the amazing thing is that we happened to be praying for him. WHat a coincidence! LOL your dumb.

Also a women who wasnt able to walk for four or five years asked us to pray for her and we did. THE AMAZING PART was that she got up and walked right after we finished praying for her. What a coincidence.

You know its amazing how the body has such great timing... and the kicker of it all was i thought it was from God. Man i must be dumb....


lol

get a grip on life.




clete-

I'm challenging you to prove that what you claim is happen, is in fact actually happening.

i have given you the best proof i have and you have yet to reply to it.... i am not talking about my testimony to these things but the website i posted.

I will give you the benifet of the doubt, you probably just missed my post that had that.

quoting myself-

here is a link to my teams trip update logs:

http://www.adventures.org/a/reports/r3re.asp?id=625

there you have it again....

Surely you must be Freak logged in under a different user name! I thought for sure he was the only one capable of such a lunatic argument as this!

I am not freak logged on under another name......

If you cannot argue the points I bring up do not just start marking crap up and then argue with that. It makes you look stupid and pisses me off!

okay i will prove i am not freak (no offense freak) by apologizing and letting you know that my intent wasnt to piss you off.

Are you suggesting that you have seen a vision of Jesus Christ? Surely not! Perhaps your suggesting that I deny that any miracle has ever happened. No? Then what? What the hell point could you possibly be making that would make any sense whatsoever?

yes i have seen a vision from Christ ( i am not speaking figuartively either). But i am having enough trouble proving to you that there are miracles that occur today so we wont go there quite yet.

My point was you cant prove the things that happend to paul happend as much as i can "prove" what i witnessed.

maybe this clears it up....

I don't criticize God at all. He did indeed have a reason for miracles. I submit simply that He has a reason for not performing them right now.

thank you for clearing up your point... i understand what you are saying better.. but still disagree.

Really? The present it! I'd love to see this proof of yours. I can guarantee that the apostles would have been able to do so had someone asked them to just as Jesus did.

my testimony... that was my point, i tell you with truth to what i have seen, same with the disciples. I am not saying that what i witnessed was more important than what they witnessed (just making that clear)..

I am saying it takes a degree of faith with supernatural events.

 

[theo_victis]

Clete-

"Further to suggest that I do not believe in the resurrection directly implies that I am not even a Christian. I demand that you repent and apologize for this lie! "

I never said that you arent a Christian.. I was being sarcastic. I am not apologizing for something that i didnt say. But i am sorry for misleading you into thinking i meant this. Man i gotta work on wording my posts better...... and plus need to work on grammar. lol

 

[freelight]

faith famine.....

faith famine.....

Clete continues to cry, whine, babble, get disgruntled and demand for evidence of miracles.....but will not take the scriptures into account and put his faith in God for all things, including the miraculous (whatever faith shall afford - for the truth of Jesus teaching remains - 'let it be according to your faith') - Jesus taught faith could move mountains, transform events - even if just the size of a mustard seed - but Cletes faith may not even be found under a microscope....until he sees 'proof'. tsk tsk tsk

We walk by faith not by sight! Faith that demands to see physical proof first....IS NOT FAITH! I think Clete needs to discover what the dynamics of faith include.....and that this faith Jesus taught has within it great, if not divine power.

Who will Clete believe? Bob or Jesus


paul

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by godrulz

Exactly. Sounds more than reasonable (Freak). Volumes can be written saying that God birthed His church in power, but now resorts to natural means?! The Spirit of God blows like the wind. I am thankful His reality is still demonstrated today in a supernatural way. I love my anti-charismatic friends, but honestly believe they are wrong on this point (charismata, healing, deliverance, signs/wonders). Word + Spirit= truth. I must reject a view that limits the Sovereign God. There really is not a good reason for Satan to run rampant using supernatural wiles while God and His Church are left to impotent, natural means.

Experience is one thing, but I think there is merit to exegeting Freak's passages. Historical narratives do have truth content, but a didactic passage provides doctrine. I think Clete is reading an assumption into and coming to a wrong conclusion from the list of historical narrative miracles. This would be avoided by balancing the narratives with didactic passages.

Excellent.

Clete, is failing to deal with the Scriptural truths as presented by me...we know why he continues. Don't we. It's because he's incapable of doing so.

But, to give him the benefit of the doubt let's examine the Biblical foundations for why we believe miracles are for today...

First of all, we know in the Holy Scripture that it declares that spiritual gifts, which includes the gift of miracles, are given to serve the Body of Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:7

Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.

1 Corinthians 14:26

What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church.

To equip people to share the gospel.

Matthew 10:19,20

But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

Luke 4:18

"The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to release the oppressed,"

1 Corinthians 2:13

This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.

To show God's compassion and concern for His people.

Matthew 14:13-14

When Jesus heard what had happened, he withdrew by boat privately to a solitary place. Hearing of this, the crowds followed him on foot from the towns. 14When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them and healed their sick.

Matthew 20:29-34

As Jesus and his disciples were leaving Jericho, a large crowd followed him. Two blind men were sitting by the roadside, and when they heard that Jesus was going by, they shouted, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on us!"
The crowd rebuked them and told them to be quiet, but they shouted all the louder, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on us!"
Jesus stopped and called them. "What do you want me to do for you?" he asked.
"Lord," they answered, "we want our sight."
Jesus had compassion on them and touched their eyes. Immediately they received their sight and followed him.

Mark 1:40-42

A man with leprosy came to him and begged him on his knees, "If you are willing, you can make me clean."
Filled with compassion, Jesus reached out his hand and touched the man. "I am willing," he said. "Be clean!" Immediately the leprosy left him and he was cured.

Nowhere in Scripture are we told this gift was taken away from the church.

In fact we are told the gift of miracles is given to the Body...

Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

Secondly, at least six times in Paul’s writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christ’s example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Clete, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.

Thirdly, God's Word tells us that miracles have a divine purpose that God promises will be carried out:

...how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

God says He uses miracles to testify, to confirm of His goodness, His glory, His salvation. Who are you to tell us God doesn't have a purpose for miracles when in fact He does? If He gave His Body the gift of miracles, which He has, then it is safe to say He still performs miracles. This despite what you personally believe.

Clete, Theo, Godrulz, and myself have all shared (along with several other posters) our personal encounters with miracles. I have witnessed hundreds of miracles. Hundreds of people being healed and delivered from demons. You reject my testimony, you reject theo's and you reject Godrulz's. So, we now turn to the Biblical record which is clearly in our favor. Now, we ask you to deal with the reality of God's Word on this subject...