Freak challenges "The Plot" over miracles

[Clete]

Originally posted by theo_victis

whatever happened to faith....


i am a brother in Christ and i am testifying to this....
hmm....

okay you prove to me that Jesus was resurrected from the dead then. That is a miracle. You cant physically prove it. You just have to believe. Jeez. So i guess testimonies are no good?!?!?!?

Then the bible must be a bunch of rubbish because it is a testimony. I as well proclaim to you that the truths of the bible are the truths of today.

But i am guessing you want more proof much like the Pharisees in which Jesus responded to them by calling them a perverse generation for their unbelief.


dude, get a grip why do you deny God the power to do miracles in today’s world? Because you haven’t seen them with your own eyes?

No, I believe what I believe for Biblical reasons. It's just that I have the added advantage of having the implied testimony of a complete lack of physical evidence to the contrary.

And yes there is a whole mountain of evidence that the resurrection happened.

Further, faith is not blind. It is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. Faith is about excepting the testimony of the substantive evidence (or lack thereof) that is placed before you.

By the way if you would like to see a very well put together presentation of the evidence for the resurrection, you can find it at the following link...

Mount Moriah Video

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

 

[godrulz]

It is a very subjective apologetic to argue that miracles have ceased because you do not have first hand evidence in your very limited sphere of influence and knowledge. Many testify of their veracity and reality.

Freak is not afraid of physical evidence. He has all the evidence he needs to disprove Clete's premise AND an exegetical foundation from Scripture to validate the experiences.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by godrulz

It is a very subjective apologetic to argue that miracles have ceased because you do not have first hand evidence in your very limited sphere of influence and knowledge. Many testify of their veracity and reality.

It is not because I do not have first hand evidence that I do not believe in modern miracles. The fact that evidence for their happening is absent suggests that my Biblical reason (i.e. The Plot) is correct.

Freak is not afraid of physical evidence. He has all the evidence he needs to disprove Clete's premise AND an exegetical foundation from Scripture to validate the experiences.

If he has such evidence he has either been unable or unwilling to produce it.

Resting in His sufficient grace,
Clete

 

[theo_victis]

dude here i am telling you that miracles exsist. I am right here. jeez. What more does it take. I experianced them. Read a thousand TESTIMONIES. I agree with you about being a little skeptical, its okay (you dont want to believe everything you hear) but i proclaim to you that i am telling the truth.


Not to be rude but do you consider me a liar?


Plus you cant prove with any physical evidence that Jesus' ressurrection occured just as much as you can prove the miracles i experianced were true. It takes faith.

(note: Jesus' ressurection is a wee bit more important and probably shouldnt be compared with my experiance but it is the easiest metaphor i got. And Yes i believe in the ressurrection, that might clear up my point.)

 

[theo_victis]

Clete-

you said:

"Sorry theo, saying it doesn't make it so!

Show me!"


it sounds a lot like doubting thomas.

You dont have to believe in the miracles i experianced (thats okay) but to make a huge claim that they dont exsist/occur anymore is a huge claim.

Just something to think about.

 

[Clete]

As I've said before Thomas was shown the physical evidence when he asked for it.

The difference between Thomas and me is that I am not basing my belief on the evidence itself. Again, I'm simply pointing out that the absence of evidence argues in favor of my Biblical position.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

 

[theo_victis]

one problem though, the bible is full of miracles to the very end.

what biblical position do you hold?

 

[theo_victis]

Clete-

I am still wondering do you consider me a liar?

 

[freelight]

you can lead a mule to the water.......

you can lead a mule to the water.......

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

As I've said before Thomas was shown the physical evidence when he asked for it.

The difference between Thomas and me is that I am not basing my belief on the evidence itself. Again, I'm simply pointing out that the absence of evidence argues in favor of my Biblical position.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

)=============== Clete,..............you did not see Jesus rise from the dead...but you believe based upon written records of those who claimed to have seen him. So....you have the lack of evidence...but choose to believe anyways. Hundreds of testimonies of miracles of all kinds have been shared, written about and experienced by many - but you choose not to believe in them. Both are verified by written records. You dont even have the writers of the Bible alive today....but you have many living today that can attest to miracles to your face.....but you still choose not to believe. The only evident thing here is your lack of faith and your limited acceptance of what scripture clearly teaches about faith and miracles. You have more faith in dead people, who wrote down records, which were furthermore tailored more or less...then canonized by church councils...than living persons today who share their testimonies. Your doubt and unbelief show your faith in men and letters than in the power of the living God moving in our midst today among THOSE WHO BELIEVE. There is no more to say here really....as one cannot force another to believe - one must hear the word of faith and receive the generation from above to exercise faith in what they hear - since you are audience only to unbelief...that will be your fruit and your experience. For those of us who believe and know the spiritual dimensions of living faith....the Lord God in the midst of us will always be mighty to save, heal and deliver. We do not stand on the sidelines like infants in understanding...and demand to be shown proofs to initiate us into believing - we walk by faith.....and faith precedes and inspires the working of signs, wonders and miracles in our midst. Again..........'let each have according to their faith!'.

All you have shown and been exposed for...is unbelief.....due to your assumption of lack of evidence.



God is not mocked by unbelief and doubt.........for what a man sows (by faith in the Spirit) that shall he reap. - this is universal law....and all those who sow towards the Spirit shall reap the fruit thereof.

'he who believes in God...must believe that he IS..and is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him...for without faith...it is impossible to please Him'.

It appears there are temperments of faith in the body of Christ.......selective faith (believe God for some things...but limit Him in other things). So be it. The law of faith, the law of the Spirit, the law of sowing and reaping still avail.


paul

 

[godrulz]

Are any of us committing the logical fallacy of begging the question (circular reasoning) by assuming a premise and using it as proof for our position? There is another fallacy to arrive at a conclusion without having all the possible evidence. By subjective apologetic, I meant that there may be evidence that you do not personally have in front of you that would change things.

I think it would be good to exegete the passages on spiritual gifts, miracles, and healings and THEN let the anecdotal evidence be confirmatory or negating. Just be aware that any of us has a minute amount of all the possible information in the universe. You may not have first hand evidence, but that does not mean that others do not either. There are hundreds of millions of people that speak in tongues, know of healings/deliverances, etc.; there are 1000s of books through the centuries documenting moves of God that included signs and wonders. To call all Pentecostal/charismatic believers/ministries/leaders liars or frauds is really grasping at straws.

e.g. Smith Wigglesworth, Reinhard Bonnke, David DuPlessis, Azusa Street revivals, Assemblies of God, Vineyard (Wimber) etc. are all credible in their accounts of historical evidence of the supernatural in their midst.

"Yes there are, no there is not" is getting us no where.

Bottom line: some of us are persuaded that miracles still occur based on Scripture and experience; others believe dispensationalism precludes the possibility and have no first hand proof. The latter should remain open to the evidence as it comes in, and should revisit passages in context without a dispensational template.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by theo_victis

one problem though, the bible is full of miracles to the very end.

what biblical position do you hold?

Well without going into unnecessary detail, my position is basically identical to that put forward in The Plot. Stated as simply as possible, physical miracles faded with the previous dispensation.
However, keep in mind that I am not interested in debating this from a Biblical perspective. Doing so is not only unnecessary but would be unbearably cumbersome in that you would basically have to come up with a doctrinal system that does as good a job at explaining seemingly unrelated issues as does Acts 9 Dispensationalism, which I doubt you or anyone else is capable of doing.

I am still wondering do you consider me a liar?

No, I consider Freak a liar but not you.
Lying involves intent to deceive, which I do not believe you have. I have no doubt that you believe what you say to be true. But keep in mind that there are hundred of thousands if not millions of people who believe in UFO's and there are definitely millions of people who believe that one idiot on T.V. (I forget his name) can actually contact their dead relatives and relay messages from beyond the grave. This is why anecdotal evidence is untrustworthy. People are simply too easily deceived into believing and seeing what they want to believe and see. No offense intended but I consider you to be in this unfortunate category.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

 

[godrulz]

UFOs can be demonic apparitions, so these people are not crazy. They lack discernment to know that not all supernatural things have God as a source. Demonic counterfeits, like seances with the dead, are real to the witnesses, but they are deceptions of the enemy. Other things can be explained naturally (weather balloons, etc.) or as frauds (fake photographs or "Big Foot" = guy in a suit with someone taking pictures....or crop circles...guys at night making them).

Some miracles are explainable apart from God. We contend that there is another subset that are clearly done in the name of Jesus, by the power of the Holy Spirit, consistent with the Word of God, through godly men of God (or directly from the hand of God without human vessel).

It is not necessary to confuse categories, risking throwing the baby out with the proverbial bathwater.

There are counterfeits or demonically inspired 'miracles'. You only counterfeit something of value (genuine). Satan is not greater than God in this dispensation. The church is an army equipped with supernatural weapons, serving a mighty God, in the face of a supernatural enemy.

 

[Clete]

Re: you can lead a mule to the water.......

Re: you can lead a mule to the water.......

Originally posted by freelight

)=============== Clete,..............you did not see Jesus rise from the dead...but you believe based upon written records of those who claimed to have seen him. So....you have the lack of evidence...but choose to believe anyways.

This is not true. See previous posts on this very issue.

Hundreds of testimonies of miracles of all kinds have been shared, written about and experienced by many - but you choose not to believe in them. Both are verified by written records.

I do not deny that there are testimonies, I do deny that they have been "verified by written records". They have been written down but so have the magic spells of witches, that doesn't mean they are real or that magic actually works.

The only evident thing here is your lack of faith and your limited acceptance of what scripture clearly teaches about faith and miracles.

This is what is in dispute and what will be settled one way or the other by evidence or the lack thereof.

You have more faith in dead people, who wrote down records, which were furthermore tailored more or less...then canonized by church councils...than living persons today who share their testimonies.

I do not doubt the Bible if that is what you are saying.

Your doubt and unbelief show your faith in men and letters than in the power of the living God moving in our midst today among THOSE WHO BELIEVE.

If an angel from God came to me and preached a gospel different than the one preached by the apostle Paul I would not beleive it.

All you have shown and been exposed for...is unbelief.....due to your assumption of lack of evidence.

I have not assumed anything! I have never been shown any evidence that suggest in any verifiable way that my Biblical position on this issue needs modification in any way. If you think you can the I invite you to do so.

God is not mocked by unbelief and doubt.........for what a man sows (by faith in the Spirit) that shall he reap. - this is universal law....and all those who sow towards the Spirit shall reap the fruit thereof.

It may surprise you to know that I agree with this statement although your addition of "by faith in the Spirit" is an unnecessary addition.

'he who believes in God...must believe that he IS..and is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him...for without faith...it is impossible to please Him'.

As good a reason as I can think of for God to have put an end to the devastating effects of miracles on those who witness them.

It appears there are temperaments of faith in the body of Christ.......selective faith (believe God for some things...but limit Him in other things).

It's not as if I went to God and told Him to stop performing miracles. It was He who stopped for His own reasons which I understand and have tried to communicate on these pages. The point being that if you have faith in something that is false, your faith doesn't make it true. God has either ceased doing physical miracles or He has not, what you choose to believe about it does not change the truth of the matter.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by godrulz

UFOs can be demonic apparitions, so these people are not crazy. They lack discernment to know that not all supernatural things have God as a source. Demonic counterfeits, like seances with the dead, are real to the witnesses, but they are deceptions of the enemy. Other things can be explained naturally (weather balloons, etc.) or as frauds (fake photographs or "Big Foot" = guy in a suit with someone taking pictures....or crop circles...guys at night making them).

Some miracles are explainable apart from God. We contend that there is another subset that are clearly done in the name of Jesus, by the power of the Holy Spirit, consistent with the Word of God, through godly men of God (or directly from the hand of God without human vessel).

It is not necessary to confuse categories, risking throwing the baby out with the proverbial bathwater.

There are counterfeits or demonically inspired 'miracles'. You only counterfeit something of value (genuine). Satan is not greater than God in this dispensation. The church is an army equipped with supernatural weapons, serving a mighty God, in the face of a supernatural enemy.

The way you tell the difference between a fraud and the real thing is by an examination of the evidence.

 

[theo_victis]

It's not as if I went to God and told Him to stop performing miracles. It was He who stopped for His own reasons which I understand and have tried to communicate on these pages.

How do you know? You have been asking for us to prove that miracles do exsist today. How about you proving they dont. I dont believe it can be done.

People overlook the power of a miracle in the hands of the Lord. It is a great evangelism tool (not that i can just whip them out of a hat, it has to come from the Lord) they stir belief.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer
I do not place physical evidence OVER the Bible.

Good, then deal with these Scriptural truths regarding the issue of miracles...

Holy Scripture declares that spiritual gifts are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42).

At least six times in Paul’s writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christ’s example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Clete, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.

My position is simply that the Bible does not contradict reality.

My position is this: Jesus is my source of truth not physical evidence. Your position is flawed. Reality (in our world) tells us that homosexual marriage is legal in certain countries of the world. In God's eyes He sees it as being illegal, wrong, evil. The Bible contradicted reality.

Besides, where is the physcial evidence you can show me where this statement by Jesus is true: "Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me.." I don't believe this on the basis of physical evidence but rather on the basis of the Lord Jesus.

Further, the fact that the Earth was found to be round thousands of years after the Bible recorded this fact is strong evidence of its Divine authorship and absolute trustworthiness.

That's absurd and flawed once again. My evidence stems from the revelation of the Lord Jesus not upon science. Jesus claimed to be the truth (see John 14:6). If Jesus claimed that Scripture to be true, I will believe it because Jesus said it. Why would I need science to prove anything when I have God Himself telling me that His word is true?

I believe that the Bible teaches that Miracles have ceased (for now) and you believe the reverse.

This is flawed. For Scripture tells us that God gives the gift of miracles to His church today...

If the primary purpose of miracles was to authenticate the Scriptures, as they ceased at the closing of the Canon, then why did any one else have a ministry of signs and wonders or miracles? Why did God give gifts of healing and miracles to the church? (1 Cor. 12:7-10; Gal. 3:5). I have never read or heard of a sufficient answer to that question. The church is still present and there is no reason to believe He doesn't give His church gifts that include the gifts of miracles.

If Jesus’ miracles were sufficient to authenticate him as the Son of God and to authenticate his message, why did the apostles have to do miracles? The standard reply is that the apostles had to do miracles to show that they were trustworthy witnesses to Jesus Christ and trustworthy teachers of doctrine. But why couldn’t they just preach about the miracles as much of the church does today? Can’t we be regarded as trustworthy witnesses today without doing miracles? If we can, then why did the apostles need miracles?

My only point is that the truth of the matter can be confirmed by the presence or absence of physical evidence. If verifiable physical evidence exists then I am wrong, if it does not then you are.

No! Jesus is my authority not physical evidence. You are placing physical evidence above Jesus. This is a spiritual crime. It is wrong!

I frankly don't see why you are so afraid of physical evidence in the first place.

I'm not. I have asked you to email the following church to receive your evidence:

For these verifiable healings can be attained here: To contact the church you may either email us at office@covenantwordchurch.org or write us at:

Covenant Word Church
PO Box 773
Key West, FL 33041

Even Paul pointed out that Christianity is a falsifiable religion by stating that if Christ be not risen we are lost in our sins and are the biggest fools who ever lived. If verifiable evidence could be found that Jesus did not in fact rise from the dead then not only are miracles not happening but Christianity is itself a lie.

Where have we seen the physical evidence that Christ bodily rose from the grave. We believe because the Bible tells us so not because of physical evidence...Doh.......

And finally, as to your scripture quote...

I was merely pointing out the obvious. Prove to me where there is physical evidence for this truth statement by Jesus: "Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me.."

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by theo_victis

Yeah! that is awesome, i have been to Kumasi and Accra as well, i actually stayed in Daedimon (half hour from Accra) for about three or four weeks.

What brought you to Ghana?

Btw its funny how no has responded to living proof. I saw miracles happen. Fevers, rashes, diseases leaving people that we prayed over.

I also experainced a miracle in my own life.

That's awesome! Great testimony. I'm an evangelist and have served God in this capacity around the world for many years. The ministry of the Gospel brought us to Ghana. I used to live in Africa, Cotonou, Benin.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by godrulz

It is a very subjective apologetic to argue that miracles have ceased because you do not have first hand evidence in your very limited sphere of influence and knowledge. Many testify of their veracity and reality.

Freak is not afraid of physical evidence. He has all the evidence he needs to disprove Clete's premise AND an exegetical foundation from Scripture to validate the experiences.

:thumb:

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

It is not because I do not have first hand evidence that I do not believe in modern miracles. The fact that evidence for their happening is absent suggests that my Biblical reason (i.e. The Plot) is correct.

Notice how closely Clete places the plot book alongside the Scriptures. The plot materials have been proven, through the light of Scripture, as being wrong and leading people away from the living God who performs miralces in our day.

If he has such evidence he has either been unable or unwilling to produce it.

Lie! :down: My evidence is Jesus! Can you think of any better evidence then the very words of Jesus? I didn't think so.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by theo_victis
Plus you cant prove with any physical evidence that Jesus' ressurrection occured just as much as you can prove the miracles i experianced were true. It takes faith.

Exactly. We have the very words of Jesus, however, and that's good enough for me. :up: