Freak challenges "The Plot" over miracles

[Clete]

Originally posted by theo_victis
What is he out to do? Make the pauline epistles heretical? LOL that is bad.

Quite the reverse. He is making the exact same point you made when you said this...

[Paul] neither received [the Gospel] from man, nor was [he] taught it EXCEPT BY A REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST Gal. 1:12

He is simply pointing out that something different was going on with Paul than had been going on prior to Paul. Paul's message was new.

See i think it is okay to try to figure out the meaning of scripture but i think it is stupid to assume his translation is all of a sudden golden and everything.

Bob would also agree with this statement as well.
Bob does not consider himself to be a Greek scholar but knowing were he went to school I would bet my house that he knows more New Testament Greek than most and far more than he lets on.

To answer your question The Plot lays out what is commonly called Dispensationalism and Bob goes into great detail establishing Biblically that the dispensation of Grace began in Acts chapter 9 when Paul was converted on the Damascus Road, the first to be saved by Grace through faith alone.
This is already far more detail than I like to give about the content of his book. I would prefer that people actually read it and thereby follow his logic step by step in order to be able to see how this conclusion is arrived at. The book is rather pricey because he uses the proceeds to finance his ministry, but I know for sure that if you can not afford it but want a copy that the price is negotiable. Call 1-888-8ENYART if you would like to order a copy.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

 

[freelight]

Got faith?

Got faith?

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

freelight,

This is silly! Was Hitler coming to power a miracle?

HIV is alive. Is AIDS a miracle?

How about Smallpox or maybe Cancer? They are all living organisms of one kind or another. Are they miracles too?

Not everything is a miracle freelight. If that was the case then the word miracle word loose all of it meaning. Imagine for a moment that everything was red. Everything! The sky, your desk, the letters on your screen, the background those letters are printed on, the paper in your printer, the printer itself, etc, etc. Do you suppose we would have a word for red if that were the case or would classifications of color be meaningless? See my point? Not everything can be a miracle or else nothing is a miracle. Don’t defeat you own position by a careless use of language. Words have meaning and ideas have consequences and

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

P.S. I noticed your "In His substance," sign off a few posts ago.
Very clever! I give you :up: :up: for at least bringing the fight to me on the level at which I'm fighting it! I love a subtle argument; even it is only a jab! If nothing else, it shows you're paying attention.

)=========Hi Clete,........you're missing the whole subject of my posts which is 'faith' - the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. THE FAITH THAT JESUS TEACHES!!! Since you discount the teaching of Jesus and the inner dynamic of faith within the consciousness of man....relative to how these dynamics work within the laws of mind and spirit....relative to how such can bring about the works and will of God thru signs, wonders and miracles (of all kinds)...then there is no more I can do here as my offerings are not being received per the understanding or perspectives so far shared. My posts have been ample...but for the sake of hope of expanding the vision of faith.....I continue on. You have the choice to believe Jesus and begin to believe what he taught on faith...or you can continue with your religious views. The option is yours.

Of course if you're in an environment/atmosphere/church/fellowship etc.......where you are not being taught faith...or hearing preaching on faith....you will not have much faith to believe God for all that is possible and all that Jesus says can be ours - thru faith. (faith comes by hearing ). There are many great teachers out there - I saw a little of Dr. Mark Chironnas sermon on 'Work that wonder - How to orchestrate the miraculous into your daily life' - I recommend this as a great primer for understanding the spiritual laws that govern faith and its cooperation with God....in living the abundant life - I have enjoyed the rich insight and spiritual sensitivity of this minister/teacher/life coach...and he does flow in the realm of the prophetic and gifts of the Holy Spirit. Link -

http://www.markchironna.com/index.htm

Faith is all inclusive..... involved in the whole spectrum of divine Life and living in the Spirit - our whole life journey - faith covers the whole spectrum of our intercourse with Life - from simple living basics...to signs, wonders and miracles ...and beyond - experiencing God in all things.

Got God?

Got faith?

I think some need to double check.


paul

 

[theo_victis]

okay, thanks for that insight. I hope i didnt appear to blast the guys work, just sometimes it is good to be skeptical. It appears to me that it works then.

Then...

Scratch that thought on the greek. He is just trying to make the scripture easier to comprehend then. Right??

 

[Turbo]

theo_victis,

There is also a money-back guarantee.

 

[theo_victis]

lol

 

[theo_victis]

Clete Pfeiffer -


a quote from you:

"Bob would also agree with this statement as well."


Eversince i joined this site i think that when anyone refers to bob they are refering to Billy bob. lol. I had to read it twice to make sure billy bob wasnt the author. lol

 

[Turbo]

Originally posted by theo_victis

He is just trying to make the scripture easier to comprehend then. Right??

That's right. The "sentence within a sentence" technique isn't the main point of the book. It's just explained in the first chapter because it's used throughout the book. It's just a tool to amplify the main point within long sentences. Or in some cases, it highlights the part of a passage that is relevent.

I think it's a pretty handy method. I use it often. (Not just on Bible passages, though I do find it useful when I'm underlining something in my own Bible.)

 

[Turbo]

Originally posted by theo_victis

I had to read it twice to make sure billy bob wasnt the author. lol

:shocked:

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by theo_victis

okay, thanks for that insight. I hope i didnt appear to blast the guys work, just sometimes it is good to be skeptical. It appears to me that it works then.

Then...

Scratch that thought on the Greek. He is just trying to make the scripture easier to comprehend then. Right??

Exactly! :thumb: Which is precisely why he brings up the dangers involved in the sentence in a sentence technique himself. He wants to avoid all appearance of underhandedness. And besides, he never does anything outrageous or even controversial with the technique anyway. It's as you said, simply a way of making things easier to see, especially when you have some of the long, run-on sentences that appear in some of Paul writings. Whether he's right or wrong on his theology, Bob is the most intellectually honest writer I've ever come across.

You should try to pick up a copy! It very much worth the read whether you end up agreeing with his conclusions or not.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

P.S. Turbo wasn't joking about the money back guarantee!
And by the way; Welcome to Theology Online! Glad to have you here. :up:

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

I do not really understand why you think that my critical thinking is in error here!
I'm simply saying that my Biblical understanding is backed up by the lack of physical evidence to the contrary and conversely yours is undermined by that same lack of physical evidence.
I think Freak's obfuscations and mischaracterization of my position have tainted your own understanding of what I've said. From my very fist post I made it cleat that this theological debate can be batted back and forth Biblically all day long with little or no chance of resolution and that it can more easily be determined who is right by an investigation into whether or not physical miracles are actually happening. Not all Biblical ideas can be tested in this way because not all Biblical ideas have anything to do with the physical world but those ideas that do have to do with things physical can be tested by physical means and after those things have been honestly tested and the results analyzed without prejudice then the reality of the physical world with not be found to be in contradiction to the Word of God.
This is my entire position, nothing more, nothing less. In what way is this logic flawed?

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

Hundreds of millions of Christians are convinced from Scripture and experience that miracles, healings, gifts of the Spirit still occur. If your logic is not flawed, then your lack of awareness of the body of evidence is i.e. the evidence for the continuation of the charismata and miracles is there.

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by theo_victis

okay, thanks for that insight. I hope i didnt appear to blast the guys work, just sometimes it is good to be skeptical. It appears to me that it works then.

Then...

Scratch that thought on the greek. He is just trying to make the scripture easier to comprehend then. Right??

My limited experience with the first few chapters finds some unusual renderings and a reliance on the NKJV to make points that are not as clear in other translations or in a Greek Interlinear.

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Turbo

That's right. The "sentence within a sentence" technique isn't the main point of the book. It's just explained in the first chapter because it's used throughout the book. It's just a tool to amplify the main point within long sentences. Or in some cases, it highlights the part of a passage that is relevent.

I think it's a pretty handy method. I use it often. (Not just on Bible passages, though I do find it useful when I'm underlining something in my own Bible.)

This technique is not normative and can be subjective leading to an emphasis or out-of-context not evidenced in the Greek (sometimes...it has limited value).

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Not all Biblical ideas can be tested in this way because not all Biblical ideas have anything to do with the physical world but those ideas that do have to do with things physical can be tested by physical means and after those things have been honestly tested and the results analyzed without prejudice then the reality of the physical world with not be found to be in contradiction to the Word of God.

This is again very bizarre, Biblically unsound, and flawed. Physical evidence doesn't prove the Bible true. God's Word is true because Jesus says it's true. There is a fundamental difference between what we believe...I find ultimate authority in matters of truth in the revelation of Jesus and His Word. If He says it, I believe it. I place physical evidence below the truth authority of Jesus and His Word.

This is my entire position, nothing more, nothing less. In what way is this logic flawed?

Clete

This completey flies in the face of Biblical thought. Clete, claims that physical evidence proves what God says is true or that His miracles are true.. Jesus, who is God, stated, "Thy Word is truth." I believe Jesus and thereby don't need physical evidence. Jesus is the truth and speaks the truth--He says it, I believe it. Do you believe it if Jesus says something is true, it's true regardless of physical evidence, Clete?

Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

What physical evidence is there regarding this truth statement?

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer
Whether he's right or wrong on his theology, Bob is the most intellectually honest writer I've ever come across.

:shut:

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by theo_victis

sup everyone-

i have been reading most of the posts in this topic and i have to agree with freak that miracles exsist. Here is my take:

You guys are arguing about miracles from a theological perspective. I am arguing on account of experiance.

I went to Ghana Africa (on the west coast) last summer on a mission trip and my team witnessed a lot of miracles.

Have you ever noticed that when Jesus or any apostles perform a miracle they say "your faith has healed you". Maybe its todays unbelief in the first place that makes God "shut the sky" from his miracles.

The bottom line is miracles happen. There is more than one person in this world that can attest to this.

Yes, you're right! Btw, I have traveled to Ghana, West Africa on a number of occassions, visiting Kumasi & Accra.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by Freak

This is again very bizarre, Biblically unsound, and flawed. Physical evidence doesn't prove the Bible true. God's Word is true because Jesus says it's true. There is a fundamental difference between what we believe...I find ultimate authority in matters of truth in the revelation of Jesus and His Word. If He says it, I believe it. I place physical evidence below the truth authority of Jesus and His Word.

This completely flies in the face of Biblical thought. Clete, claims that physical evidence proves what God says is true or that His miracles are true.. Jesus, who is God, stated, "Thy Word is truth." I believe Jesus and thereby don't need physical evidence. Jesus is the truth and speaks the truth--He says it, I believe it. Do you believe it if Jesus says something is true, it's true regardless of physical evidence, Clete?

Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

What physical evidence is there regarding this truth statement?

Finally! An actual response to my actual argument! I was beginning to think that you didn't have it in you Freak. Keep it up and maybe we'll make some progress here.

As to "ultimate authority in matters of truth", you have overstated or at least overreacted to my position. I do not place physical evidence OVER the Bible. My position is simply that the Bible does not contradict reality. What I'm saying is easier to see if we remove it for a moment away from the topic of miracles. I'll reuse an example that I brought up a few posts ago...
The Bible calls the Earth a sphere. This statement is falsifiable, meaning that it can be disproved if evidence is shown to the contrary. If people had ever fallen off the edge of the world as was feared by some less than 300 years ago then we could say definitively that the Bible was incorrect in its assertion that the Earth was round. Further, the fact that the Earth was found to be round thousands of years after the Bible recorded this fact is strong evidence of its Divine authorship and absolute trustworthiness.
In the case of miracles, however, we have a dispute as to exactly what the Bible teaches. I believe that the Bible teaches that Miracles have ceased (for now) and you believe the reverse. My only point is that the truth of the matter can be confirmed by the presence or absence of physical evidence. If verifiable physical evidence exists then I am wrong, if it does not then you are.
I frankly don't see why you are so afraid of physical evidence in the first place. Even Paul pointed out that Christianity is a falsifiable religion by stating that if Christ be not risen we are lost in our sins and are the biggest fools who ever lived. If verifiable evidence could be found that Jesus did not in fact rise from the dead then not only are miracles not happening but Christianity is itself a lie.

And finally, as to your scripture quote...
I have avoided answering this question because it’s just so ridiculous! Jesus makes a statement about Himself and says, in effect, 'If you don’t want to take my word for it, look at the evidence."
Freak, if your going to argue against your own position this is going to get really easy for me!

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

 

[theo_victis]

Yes, you're right! Btw, I have traveled to Ghana, West Africa on a number of occassions, visiting Kumasi & Accra.

Yeah! that is awesome, i have been to Kumasi and Accra as well, i actually stayed in Daedimon (half hour from Accra) for about three or four weeks.

What brought you to Ghana?

Btw its funny how no has responded to living proof. I saw miracles happen. Fevers, rashes, diseases leaving people that we prayed over.

I also experainced a miracle in my own life. After i got home from Ghana i got really sick. It was malaria. I thought everything would be fine because i have had it before. But i got really really sick and went to the hospital.

My sister and the rest of her youth group was in Nashville Tennessee. My mom called them and told them to pray for me. They decided to pray that God would heal me right away.

Then after that moment i was healed.

THIS IS MY FIRSTHAND EXPERIANCE.

me do (means Jesus loves you / God bless in twi)

 

[theo_victis]

I believe that the Bible teaches that Miracles have ceased (for now) and you believe the reverse. My only point is that the truth of the matter can be confirmed by the presence or absence of physical evidence. If verifiable physical evidence exists then I am wrong, if it does not then you are.

Well then your wrong. They do happen. I will admit they probably dont happen all the time, but they do. If you think about it there isnt a lot of physical evidence or testimonies to miracles because the media does not simply allow things like that to go on the air.

Why? Because it would give light into Christianity and proclaim the truth.

I personally think in regards to the belief that miracles have declined is false. Just because it happens in foreign places and not America/ Canada / Europe wherever you live, doesnt mean it doesnt happen. God probably looks down at America and thinks that we are way off. Most Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans, well, basically the average Christian has no idea what God is about.

(not to say any of you are one of them)

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by theo_victis

Well then your wrong. They do happen.

Sorry theo, saying it doesn't make it so!

Show me!

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

 

[theo_victis]

whatever happened to faith....


i am a brother in Christ and i am testifying to this....
hmm....

okay you prove to me that Jesus was resurrected from the dead then. That is a miracle. You cant physically prove it. You just have to believe. Jeez. So i guess testimonies are no good?!?!?!?

Then the bible must be a bunch of rubbish because it is a testimony. I as well proclaim to you that the truths of the bible are the truths of today.

But i am guessing you want more proof much like the pharisees in which Jesus responded to them by calling them a perverse generation for their unbelief.


dude, get a grip why do you deny God the power to do miracles in todays world? Because you havent seen them with your own eyes?