Why is Clete trying to refute God's miracles in the same manner and apologetic as he would Satanism? Clete, did you previously imply that Satan also is not up to supernatural wiles in this dispensation (demonization, counterfeit miracles, counterfeit tongues, 'ghosts', UFOs, etc,)? Witchcraft is not all fraud. There are many former people who have left the occult or animists in Africa or voodooists in Haiti who will tell you of the power of the dark side. If God has stopped being supernatural, who made Satan play by the same rules (Revelation shows that Satan will be doing supernatural things in the Tribulation)?
Freak challenges "The Plot" over miracles
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Freak
New member
This is flawed. Jesus is our source of truth not physical evidence. If Jesus says miracles would continue in our day then I believe it.
The Scriptures point to the reality that as a result of miracles people believed in Christ. It testified of God's greatness. Furthermore...I have never met anyone who hated God as a result of seeing someone being healed or delivered from demons.
In fact, miracles glorify God not dishonor Him. This is something that Clete has failed to see. He's been duped to believe a lie.
Freak why do you try to refute a book that you haven't read? I've said a dozen times that Bob looks at every single miracle or set of miracles recorded in the Bible at looks at its results. Sometimes the reaction is positive but rarely. Generally the results are disastrous for those who witness the miracles. In fact it is usually the fraudulent miracles that people get excited about and that everyone believes. So your experience goes along with a Biblical precedent that argues against your position. In other words the fact that you have never met anyone who hated God because of miracles is strong evidence that the miracles they witnessed were not real.
Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete
theo_victis
New member
Clete-
i cant argue with you there that miracles may stir unbelief because i have read cases where they have. But the fact remains that they do testify to the Lord's Goodness and show his power. They strengthen faith that wants to be strengthened...
I can testify to the fact that i am a stronger person in faith and in life because of the things i have seen. I know that people have repented of their sins because of these. God must have them for a reason... To convict the unbeliever and strengthen the believer and to do good work.
Freak-
That is sweet that you went to Ghana. It is a beautiful place. I love it there. I plan on being a missionary (if God wants me to Go to ghana) there. Do you mind if i ask you what you are currently doing now that you arent in Africa or are you still there????
i cant argue with you there that miracles may stir unbelief because i have read cases where they have. But the fact remains that they do testify to the Lord's Goodness and show his power. They strengthen faith that wants to be strengthened...
I can testify to the fact that i am a stronger person in faith and in life because of the things i have seen. I know that people have repented of their sins because of these. God must have them for a reason... To convict the unbeliever and strengthen the believer and to do good work.
Freak-
That is sweet that you went to Ghana. It is a beautiful place. I love it there. I plan on being a missionary (if God wants me to Go to ghana) there. Do you mind if i ask you what you are currently doing now that you arent in Africa or are you still there????
Freak
New member
I've read portions of it and I know the basics of what he believes regarding this issue. He's wrong and he's leading people away from the one and true God on this issue.
But he doesn't. Why do you keep on stating this fallacy? In light of his own definition he hasn't included many other miracles stated in Scripture. Why do you must fell like you you need to stay in darkness?
Huh? Miracles stem from His very nature. How can they be seen as being a negative if they come from Holy God? Yes, some unbelievers rejected God's works, so? Many accepted and glorified God. When someone is healed. That is a positive. When someone is delivered from demons. That is a positive. The reaction of those experiencing the miracles is gratefulness. Miracles glorify God they don't dishonor Him, silly man.
Another fallacy. God's Word tells us that miracles have a divine purpose that God promises will be carried out:
...how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.
God says He uses miracles to testify, to confirm of His goodness, His glory, His salvation. Who are you to tell us God doesn't have a purpose for miracles when in fact He does?
I said I never met anyone who experienced a miracle, a healing, a deliverance that was angry about being freed from demons, being freed from a sickness, etc....
Clete, there are many who have rejected God's miracles but this rejection does not call for miracles to cease for we know the Holy Scripture declares that spiritual gifts are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42).
Clete, please respond to this: At least six times in Paul’s writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christ’s example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Clete, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.
By portions do you mean the first chapter? By looking at your responses on this thread I cannot tell that you have read anything past Chapter 4 at the most and you for sure have not read the chapter dealing with miracles. It okay to have not read his book you know. There is no shame involved. If you haven't read it just say so and stop pretending for the purposes of debate that you have.
Yes Freak he does. If he missed any at all I'd be surprised. He goes over more that 300 miracles or sets of miracles that are recorded in the Bible and looks at the resulting reaction to those miracles by both those who experienced the miracle and those who witnessed them and it is almost universally a negative response by those who witnessed them.
Wow! I lost you there Freak! Slow down and think this through. I never said that the miracles were negative or that they cast a negative light on God. I said that the reaction by those who witness the miracles was negative.
Who are you debating with Freak? I never said that God's miracles don't serve a purpose!
I think you have forgotten that your posts are all visible and easily reread by those logged into this web site.
You said...
"I have never met anyone who hated God as a result of seeing someone being healed or delivered from demons."
The Biblical record would seem to at least suggest that the lack of a negative response by anyone is a pretty good indicator that what they witnessed was not a genuine miracle. That coupled with a complete lack of physical evidence that these miracles actually happened is a death blow to their veracity.
Simply stated, physical miracles were necessary in order for God to validate Paul's ministry and message to those who were of the circumcision. Once this primary purpose was accomplished then miracles faded with the previous dispensation.
Now that is a very incomplete answer but it is not necessary for me to respond to this in any more detail than I already have. My position is quite clear an if you have read The Plot then you already know how I arrived at this conclusion Biblically. If you haven't then I recommend that you do. Either way the fact still remains that you are unable to present any verifiable physical evidence that the things which you claim to be happening are in fact actually happening and until you can present such evidence the weakness of your Biblical position in self evident.
Resting in His Sufficient Grace,
Clete
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Thanks for the tidbit, Zakath. DuPlessis ("Mr. Pentecost") recorded many interesting miracles. He was controversial in that he was ecumenical and wanted to bridge the gap between Catholics and Pentecostals.
Zakath, do you have an opinion (from your former understanding of Christianity; whether you now believe in miracles or not) on this debate? (dispensationalism, miracles fading, two different gospels for the circum. and uncirc.?)
Clete: Could you clarify for the non-Plot owners if the circumcision gospel is the one we should preach to modern Jews, or do we preach Paul's version to Jew and Gentile? Do I understand correctly that the early church would have preached faith and works to national Jews after the resurrection (until when? modern? end of 1st century?) and faith alone to anyone who was a Gentile? In a mixed crowd, how would they know? I must be misunderstanding and assume the circumcision gospel was for a limited time of transition?
It would be helpful if you listed a few verses/300 that show miracles led to unbelief, so we can read them in context. Could you include a sample of explicit ones and some that are not as obvious? (again, for non-Plot owners and those who have not read Ch. 4).
Zakath, do you have an opinion (from your former understanding of Christianity; whether you now believe in miracles or not) on this debate? (dispensationalism, miracles fading, two different gospels for the circum. and uncirc.?)
Clete: Could you clarify for the non-Plot owners if the circumcision gospel is the one we should preach to modern Jews, or do we preach Paul's version to Jew and Gentile? Do I understand correctly that the early church would have preached faith and works to national Jews after the resurrection (until when? modern? end of 1st century?) and faith alone to anyone who was a Gentile? In a mixed crowd, how would they know? I must be misunderstanding and assume the circumcision gospel was for a limited time of transition?
It would be helpful if you listed a few verses/300 that show miracles led to unbelief, so we can read them in context. Could you include a sample of explicit ones and some that are not as obvious? (again, for non-Plot owners and those who have not read Ch. 4).
Zakath
Resident Atheist
It cost him his ministerial credentials with the Assemblies of God, but he attended the Roman Catholic ecumenical council (Second Vatican Council) as an invited representative of the pentecostal faith.
While the Jewish and Christian Bibles describe a number of supernatural events and miracles, there seem to be a paucity of such things in the modern time.
My own current opinion is that supernatural manifestations called miracles do not occur. All allegedly miraculous occurences in the present day can be traced to causes within the bounds of human or natural agency.
The decline of miracles has been noted for many centuries. The Church Fathers mention that miracles occurred in their days but with diminished frequency from apostolic times. It seems that miracles always happen more frequently in "the good old days".
The dispensationalist view is a relatively modern invention as Church history goes. It was not officially promulgated until the early 19th century (around 1830). The initial development by John Nelson Darby interestingly enough was based on information he received "miraculously". It's fascinating to me that a doctrinal position used to argue against the modern manifestation of the miraculous depends for its very existence on Margaret MacDonald, a 20 year-old woman charismatic, relaying a "revelation" described by Darby as "mingled in prophecy and vision" while she was in an ecstatic religious trance. :chuckle:
I think the dual-gospel view may have some merit at describing the history of overall doctrinal development as the "gospel of the uncircumcision" eventually became the majority and orthodox positon of the Christian churches. I do not see, based on what I've read, that it is a sufficient explanation for the alleged cessation of miracles.
Thank you for your thoughtful reply. As you know, Enyart's view of dispensationalism is not identical to various other strains of it. I suppose I hold to a form of eschatological dispensationalism, but was not familiar with the mid-Acts position (and still do not understand it) until recently.
What was your former denominational background again?
What was your former denominational background again?
There is no longer any distinction between Jew and Gentile.
The Gospel of the Circumcision was preached exclusively until Paul (the resurrection and the Day of Pentecost were both a prophesied part of God's plan to give Israel a Kingdom) and then it slowly faded out as those who were saved under that dispensation died. For a while both dispensations were in effect. Both groups, Israel and The Body of Christ coexisted.
Basically Paul's converts were under the new Dispensation of the Grace of God and those that were converted by Peter James and John (the twelve) were under the Dispensation of Law (aka The Gospel of the Kingdom). If you were saved under the old then you stayed under the old "for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable."
Actually chapter four doesn’t have anything to do with miracles but I will grant your request. You have to wait until I get home though. I just got a big shipment in here at work so I’m fresh out of time until this evening!
Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete
Clete: Thank you for your clarifications. The position sounds more moderate than I thought.
If there is neither Jew nor Gentile now, then the distinction between circ./uncirc. seems merely academic for the Church Age. I take it that the cessation of miracles is not directly related to the '2 gospels', but is based on another stream of evidence or thought (or is it...if miracles were for the circ., and the distinction is now gone, is it that they were not to be part of Paul's gospel? How is this reconciled with Freak's verses from Pauline literature that shows the gifts were for the Church/Gentiles?)
If there is neither Jew nor Gentile now, then the distinction between circ./uncirc. seems merely academic for the Church Age. I take it that the cessation of miracles is not directly related to the '2 gospels', but is based on another stream of evidence or thought (or is it...if miracles were for the circ., and the distinction is now gone, is it that they were not to be part of Paul's gospel? How is this reconciled with Freak's verses from Pauline literature that shows the gifts were for the Church/Gentiles?)
Well I wouldn't go that far. Understanding the differnce between the two and who was under which dispensation and why speaks to nearly every major doctrinal debate in the church today.
Excellent questions, but I would rather wait until you've read the rest of The Plot before we go into too much detail. I'm very excited about the fact that you are reading it. Whether or not you agree with its conclusions or not I can hardly wait to discuss it with someone whom I respect for their intellectual honesty!
Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete
Freak
New member
The fact is I understand Enyart's position on miracles, in light of what the plot materials teach.
So?
Again, many of those who hear the Gospel preach will reject it. So. Just because people reject it doesn't mean we have the divine right to stop preaching the gospel, because of all those who reject. Clete, you do not have the divine right to remove the gift of miracles from the body of Christ, which you are seeking to do. The burden of proof lies with you to prove to us that God stopped giving His body the gift of miracles and that negative responses to those who witness the miracle is enough evidence to cease miracles. :down:
Good! For we know from the Holy Scripture that it declares that spiritual gifts are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42).
Most who hear the gospel will reject it. Should we then not preach the gospel? Your logic is wacky and pathetic.
So does that mean God still gives His body the gift of miracles to carry out His determined purpose?
Clete says this despite what God's Word has declared:
The apostle John penned these words..
Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many people saw the miraculous signs he was doing and believed in his name.
It was because of people seeing the miracles that people "believed in His name." Clete, your lack of Biblical knowledge is showing.
You are now reacting out of emotion instead of Biblical reason. The Holy Scripture speaks of the Body of Christ having the gift of miracles to serve humanity. This cannot be denied by someone with a mind. We are the Body and this Body, in light of the below portion of Scripture, has the gift of miracles to honor Him. This you have ignored.
Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
What about those who were non-apostles? Were they given the ability to perform miracles to validate their ministry to those whom were of the circumsed? Take for example Luke 9:49-50 or Philip's use of the gifts in Acts 8:6,7,13. Why did God give gifts of healing and miracles to the church? (1 Cor. 12:7-10; Gal. 3:5). Was it to validate the ministry of the church?
Note everyone reading this. No Biblical foundation for this belief. Pure speculation.
Note: Clete has arrived to this position through the lens of teaching of Enyart.
Why? Jesus promised:
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. I have the Holy Spirit leading me through the Scriptures. I don't need Enyart books. I would highly recommend you read the Scriptures through the guidance of the Holy Spirit instead of Enyart.
We have provided evidence. We have provided personal testimony. We have provided the testimony of the Scriptures. You have provided us Enyart and the plot materials. Pathetic!!! Clete, relies upon enyart and evidence. We rely upon the Scriptures and the revelation of Jesus.
Freak
New member
Homework for Clete...
Clete, please respond to this: At least six times in Paul’s writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christ’s example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Clete, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him. Answer these last few questions, please.
Clete, please respond to this: At least six times in Paul’s writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christ’s example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Clete, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him. Answer these last few questions, please.
Freak,
I will no longer repeat myself. You continually try to obfuscate the point and I will not tolerate it any longer.
For the last time your Biblical position is that miracles have not ceased and my Biblical position is that they have. The point is that my position is in agreement with reality in that any evidence of miracles is totally absent. Unless you can show that miracles are in fact occurring then the weakness of your position is self-evident.
So put up or shut up Freak. Show me a real miracle or admit that they haven't been happening.
Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete
I will no longer repeat myself. You continually try to obfuscate the point and I will not tolerate it any longer.
For the last time your Biblical position is that miracles have not ceased and my Biblical position is that they have. The point is that my position is in agreement with reality in that any evidence of miracles is totally absent. Unless you can show that miracles are in fact occurring then the weakness of your position is self-evident.
So put up or shut up Freak. Show me a real miracle or admit that they haven't been happening.
Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete