Freak challenges "The Plot" over miracles

[Freak]

Furthermore...
Under the New Covenant, the superior covenant, we are taught numerous times of the reality of spiritual gifts and miracles. In fact...

At least six times in Paul’s writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christ’s example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Clete, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.

 

[freelight]

the displeasure of faithlessness.....

the displeasure of faithlessness.....

Hi All,

It appears on this subject.........part of our own understanding and personal experience comes into play concerning the reality of miracles(of any degree). Within Christendom there are many sectors, branches that represent a diversity of qualitative experience of Gods grace; some choose to no longer believe in miracles because of their conditional teachings (theology, dispensationalism) - others choose to have faith and believe God for 'all' things ....as well as avail themselves of the charismas of the Spirit which God has anointed His church with. I choose to flow with the latter group who is open to Gods unlimited power and providence...while the former limits God.

Those of us who 'have the faith' to believe that God is still moving among His people in these dimensions shall have what our faith affords us. However, those of little or no faith will continue to be barren in the fruit of experience. 'According to your faith(or lack of) let it be to you'. Living faith puts no limits on the power of God in our midst and is alive in the dynamic of the Holy Spirit.

This whole subject of miracles(of any degree) comes down to ones evaluation of faiths power and the providence of God. So....ones experience and magnitude of faith will vary according to his attitude, theological perspective, faith community, teaching....and his ownreceptivity to the prompting of the Spirit. The individual and the community will often coordinate accordingly...so that each is an expression of the other in most cases. So our associations have much to with our religious temperments and spiritual experience allowances.




I was born and raised LDS - sought for God just before I was going to go on a mission - was led out of that system after high school....embraced orthodox christianity and the Jesus of the Bible...then had an awesome experience of being immersed in the Holy Spirit - experienced the charismas of the Spirit in various dimensions....gifts of healing, words of wisdom, insight, prophetic utterances, oracles, etc. At various point thru this experience and afterwards when I left that field of ministry....I studied metaphysics, mysticism, other branches of thought relative to Christianity but more into its esoteric aspects. The inner dimensions of consciousness and the power of the Spirit have always been hilights of my souls journey via intercourse with God.
When assisting a lady evangelist friend of mine in her prayer and healing meetings.....I will never deny the Spirits power and presence during those times....times of ministry and the Spirits anointing. She tried to stay away from the deliverance ministry and just stick with healing....BUT the Lord directed her and showed that often deliverance(of evil spirits) and healing go hand in hand - so I can vouch for and attest that indeed - many maladies and diseases are spirit-related, - not all of course. It takes wisdom, discernment and proper counseling to minister effectively to the sick(of mind and body). So....I do not discount the ministry of healing (which includes deliverance as necessary).....as a church without these aspects of ministry is impotent and not the church of Jesus Christ in her full power. Jesus gave his disciples instructions from heaven to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal the sick. That is the churchs commission. This is the power of the Christ - held by the Body of CHrist....who is Gods ANOINTED! (anointed with the Spirit-power from above to serve and minister to the needy). Even though I traverse more liberal grounds in my Spirit-journeys than some orthodox.....I would say that a full gospel style of ministry and spiritual life is much more in sync with the rhythm of the New Testament and my own sense of what I have tasted and sensed of the LIFE of God.

Part of blasphemying of the Holy Spirit is not only attributing the works of God as the works of the devil.....but also(to maybe a lesser dimension) the unbelief of doubting that God can do any miracles at all by His Spirit and thru the dynamics of faith active in the human soul - this borders near blasphemy and is still a sin...because it 'misses the mark' in its estimation of the power of God released thru faith among those who believe and put into practice the faith-teachings of the Lord Jesus. Theological teachings that limit the dynamics of faith and/or the Spirit in this day and age are incredulous, sinful, narrow and lacking in the full bountiful expression of the Living God who was, is and is to come - the Eternal I AM. So be careful....not only of blasphemy(of verying degrees) of the Spirit which Jesus speaks of....but the 'quenching' of the Spirit as well which Pauls speaks of. Jesus says to go in the power of the Spirit....and Paul says the same....but adds to never quench the Spirit. Therefore....any doctrinology that quenches the Spirit is sin (missing the mark).

Let God be God,....otherwise.....your disbelief serves none...including yourselves.




paul

 

[LightSon]

Re: the displeasure of faithlessness.....

Re: the displeasure of faithlessness.....

Originally posted by freelight

Part of blasphemying of the Holy Spirit is not only attributing the works of God as the works of the devil.....but also(to maybe a lesser dimension) the unbelief of doubting that God can do any miracles at all by His Spirit and thru the dynamics of faith active in the human soul - this borders near blasphemy and is still a sin...because it 'misses the mark' in its estimation of the power of God released thru faith among those who believe and put into practice the faith-teachings of the Lord Jesus. Theological teachings that limit the dynamics of faith and/or the Spirit in this day and age are incredulous, sinful, narrow and lacking in the full bountiful expression of the Living God who was, is and is to come - the Eternal I AM. So be careful....not only of blasphemy(of verying degrees) of the Spirit which Jesus speaks of....but the 'quenching' of the Spirit as well which Pauls speaks of. Jesus says to go in the power of the Spirit....and Paul says the same....but adds to never quench the Spirit. Therefore....any doctrinology that quenches the Spirit is sin (missing the mark).

Let God be God,....otherwise.....your disbelief serves none...including yourselves.

Hey Paul,
The bolded emphasis in your quote is mine and is representative of a consistent theme in your objections. In my opinion it is a type of strawman and despite your normal keen analysis, tends to vitiate any application of your analysis to my perspective on miracles.

I've had a semblence of this conversation with Freak months ago. My public position is that God chooses not to manifest His power via "faith healers" during this time. It is not, as you assert, that I "[doubt] that God can do any miracles at all by His Spirit...". It is, rather, that I doubt that God chooses to do any miracles, at this time (or during this dispensation).

Can He? Yes.
Does He? Well.... I've never seen one.

Sure, I've seen folks get well in the hospital, and I've seen people dodge bullets and I've seen the wonder of a baby being born - all miracles. Right? Right.

And what about the new birth? Yes that is a miracle too. But for the sake of argument, let us make a distinction between these (covert/ambiguous) miracles, and the type of overt miracles performed in apostolic times. I have never seen a person come back to life after being dead three days. I've never seen a man "rise up and walk" before my eyes. I've never seen a man who was (physically) blind be made to see. If I were to seek after such a thing, we both know there are verses which can be used to shame me.

So I will not say that I seek such a thing. But if an overt miracle can be demonstrated to me, then perhaps you will get me to change my position. Again, I'm not seeking a sign. I'm just waiting to see one. It isn't that God can't show me one; it is that He has chosen not to, and for reasons that I would have to manufacture or otherwise guess at.

I can't believe the reason I haven't seen a miracle, is that I don't believe God chooses not to show me one. I've prayed to this end. "Dear Lord, please show me your power. Please reveal yourself to me in mighty and unmistakable ways." As a matter of fact, I have prayed for tongues. I'd probably be excommunicated for praying such a thing, but if there is any Spirit filled reality to tongues, I want it. I just don't believe that I should have to start babbling in order to receive the gift of tongues. The Spirit moves where He chooses.

I'd also be interested in hearing you expatiate about "charismas of the Spirit" that you have experienced. Were there any "overt" miracles there? That is did you see any manifestations of God's Spirit which could not be attributed to luck or explained away as scientific happenstance?

Yes, God has moved in my life, but only in "covert" ways, ways which always seem to carry the least bit of ambiguity. As someone said, "why do good things happen to bad people?" I've been freed from drugs. But lots of "lost" people have been freed from drugs. This is what I call a "covert" miracle.

 

[Freak]

Re: Re: the displeasure of faithlessness.....

Re: Re: the displeasure of faithlessness.....

Originally posted by LightSon

It is, rather, that I doubt that God chooses to do any miracles, at this time (or during this dispensation).

If that were true then why did God give His Body spiritual gifts that include the "gift of miracles." God desires for His church to walk in miracle power. In fact, the apostle Paul, at least six times, in his writings either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christ’s example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.

Does He? Well.... I've never seen one.

As Godrulz pointed out the church is operating not in the Spirit but rather in the flesh. Do you think believers here in America are living the life of Jesus Christ--which includes the life of miracles? It seems that when the Body is persecuted, God's shows Himself in some unmistakeable ways. A study of the great revivals reveal this truth. So, this may explain why the church in America isn't seeing great miracles, because of unbelief and because of us being cold towards God.

And what about the new birth? Yes that is a miracle too.

Yes, the greatest miracle of all.

But for the sake of argument, let us make a distinction between these (covert/ambiguous) miracles, and the type of overt miracles performed in apostolic times. I have never seen a person come back to life after being dead three days. I've never seen a man "rise up and walk" before my eyes. I've never seen a man who was (physically) blind be made to see.

I have never witnessed any of those miracles but have witnessed hundreds of people being delivered from evil spirits. This is a apostolic miracle, see Mark 9. I have seen many healed instantly of diseases, severe pain, and of tumors. Then of course I have seen many healed emotionally. My wife, my sister-in-law, my sister have all been healed. My sister-in-law was delivered supernaturally from 59 evil spirits. My wife and I spent 8 hours dealing with all of them. Praise God!

But if an overt miracle can be demonstrated to me, then perhaps you will get me to change my position. Again, I'm not seeking a sign. I'm just waiting to see one. It isn't that God can't show me one; it is that He has chosen not to, and for reasons that I would have to manufacture or otherwise guess at.

God is in control. He does as He wishes.

As a matter of fact, I have prayed for tongues. I'd probably be excommunicated for praying such a thing, but if there is any Spirit filled reality to tongues, I want it.

Excommunicated? Really? Why? Paul spoke in tongues and wished others would. Jesus, however, never spoke in tongues. I have never spoke in tongues but have been open but God has chosen not to give me that gift.

I just don't believe that I should have to start babbling in order to receive the gift of tongues. The Spirit moves where He chooses.

I agree.

I've been freed from drugs. But lots of "lost" people have been freed from drugs. This is what I call a "covert" miracle.

That is indeed a miracle. :thumb:

 

[freelight]

charismas

charismas

Originally posted by LightSon

Hey Paul,
The bolded emphasis in your quote is mine and is representative of a consistent theme in your objections. In my opinion it is a type of strawman and despite your normal keen analysis, tends to vitiate any application of your analysis to my perspective on miracles.

I've had a semblence of this conversation with Freak months ago. My public position is that God chooses not to manifest His power via "faith healers" during this time. It is not, as you assert, that I "[doubt] that God can do any miracles at all by His Spirit...". It is, rather, that I doubt that God chooses to do any miracles, at this time (or during this dispensation).

Can He? Yes.
Does He? Well.... I've never seen one.

Sure, I've seen folks get well in the hospital, and I've seen people dodge bullets and I've seen the wonder of a baby being born - all miracles. Right? Right.

And what about the new birth? Yes that is a miracle too. But for the sake of argument, let us make a distinction between these (covert/ambiguous) miracles, and the type of overt miracles performed in apostolic times. I have never seen a person come back to life after being dead three days. I've never seen a man "rise up and walk" before my eyes. I've never seen a man who was (physically) blind be made to see. If I were to seek after such a thing, we both know there are verses which can be used to shame me.

So I will not say that I seek such a thing. But if an overt miracle can be demonstrated to me, then perhaps you will get me to change my position. Again, I'm not seeking a sign. I'm just waiting to see one. It isn't that God can't show me one; it is that He has chosen not to, and for reasons that I would have to manufacture or otherwise guess at.

I can't believe the reason I haven't seen a miracle, is that I don't believe God chooses not to show me one. I've prayed to this end. "Dear Lord, please show me your power. Please reveal yourself to me in mighty and unmistakable ways." As a matter of fact, I have prayed for tongues. I'd probably be excommunicated for praying such a thing, but if there is any Spirit filled reality to tongues, I want it. I just don't believe that I should have to start babbling in order to receive the gift of tongues. The Spirit moves where He chooses.

I'd also be interested in hearing you expatiate about "charismas of the Spirit" that you have experienced. Were there any "overt" miracles there? That is did you see any manifestations of God's Spirit which could not be attributed to luck or explained away as scientific happenstance?

Yes, God has moved in my life, but only in "covert" ways, ways which always seem to carry the least bit of ambiguity. As someone said, "why do good things happen to bad people?" I've been freed from drugs. But lots of "lost" people have been freed from drugs. This is what I call a "covert" miracle.

)============= Hi LS,

What I have experienced is more in the spiritual dimension - spiritual healing...which does affect the soul and body - in a wholistic dynamic. I have been carried by the Spirit and used in the gifts of healing(these may be ministered on many levels of being) as the anointing comes upon me to minister to others - thru prayer, laying on of hands, blessings, etc. I have not personally witnessed profound or creative miracles....but in the spiritual dimension I know when things are transpiring spiritually during these times thru faith and spirit-sensitivity. The realm of our consciousness when it becomes one or merges with divine Consciousness is what I am taking about. To me...in this realm is where the fullness of God exists in all actualities and all potentialities....and certain levels of this divine Reality can be accessed, drawn into 'actuality' by the dynamic of faith....the same substance of consciousness whereby God himself made and framed the manifest universe. There are laws of mind and spirit relative to the exercise of faith that govern and mediate these frequencies.

Since I have opened myself up spiritually and experienced enough of this dimension....for me it is real....and such inspires and bears witness to me even more that Gods all-encompassing Reality is the Sole preeminence - He is the Supreme. I see the wonder and glory of God as INFINITY ever before me - the essence of eternal Life...the only REAL ground of Being there IS!
The All in all. I sometimes like to take this into the pure metaphysics of Being - where one assumes the Allness of God depsite anything else as the one and only Reality Being. A pioneer teacher in this field of teachings on the Absolute is Alfred Aiken. Other teachers within this field of teaching are Joel S. Goldsmith(Infinite Way teachings), Ernest Holmes (Science of Mind), Charles Fillmore(Unity), and Thomas Troward(and others).

I am on a spiritual journey as we are all. I find wonder in the diversity within the Unity of the One Spirit. God is ONE. I anchor there in that primal truth....for it is quite stable to me. The ONE.


I have shared my views here amply about faith and the power of God as being unlimited as far as I'm concerned. Jesus puts no limits on the power of faith to save or make one whole or any other worthy desire that is in accord to the Will of God - he encourages it..and even says one can have what they say. There is an element of faith that some are not grasping because they have not exercised or come into the revelation of faith thru a living experience. - so to them......such things surely do not exist. I brought up that ones faith and experience condition his attitudes. These are not straw men (whatever those are)...but real perspectives.

An awesome journey is the souls who venture into the Unknown of God....to bring forth the gnosis of enlightenment and prepare their hearts for the birth of the Christ.....who endeavor the mysteries of the kingdom for the sake of Love.


paul

 

[godrulz]

It is presumptious, ignorant, and arrogant to think that because YOU have not personally had a miracle, that the thousands who have must be off their rocker. The evidence is out there. Your limited sphere of knowledge should not be the deciding factor.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by Freak

Well it appears after a few hundred responses, the anti-God does miracle camp, still refuses to deal with the Scriptural evidence for miracles. Instead, they would rather attack me personally (1Way) or talk about miracle stories (Clete) or change the topic of this thread to baptism (Dr.). :crackup: The reason is clear--they are incapable of dealing with the truth of God's objective truth--the Scriptures. :down:

I do give Clete some credit. He is investigating some miracles that occured in his hometown. It's sad however that this poster has refused to deal with the ultimate authority on this issue--the Bible. Clete, claims that physical evidence proves what God says is true. Jesus, who is God, stated, "Thy Word is truth." I believe Jesus and thereby don't need physical evidence. Jesus is the truth and speaks the truth--He says it, I believe it. Do you believe if Jesus says something is true, it's true regardless of physical evidence, Clete?

Freak,

This is your final warning!
If you say something of this nature one more time then it will be the last time I even read a post on this thread.
I have said before and I say it one LAST time that I believe what I believe about miracles based on perfectly legitimate Biblical reasoning. I am, however, debating this issue with you from a different perspective because our apposing views on the subject demand quite different things to be PHYSICALLY happening. Therefore, if you are unable to show that the necessary PHYSICAL activity is in fact happening then your Biblical position falls apart. And since we are interested in objective truth, then anecdotal stories are not good enough because we both know how easy it is for people to be convinced of almost anything, especially when they have very deep seated emotional reasons for wanting something to be true. What we need then is objectively verifiable physical evidence that supports your Biblical position. If none exist then your Biblical position is wrong. I don't care how well argued, I don't care how many proof texts, it doesn't matter. The fact is that the Bible does not contradict reality. If physical miracles are happening today then there will be physical evidence of such miracles, if they are not then that evidence will be absent and if they are not happen then the Bible will not be found to contradict that fact. Any argument to the contrary must be flawed or the Bible itself would be shown to be untrue.

Now Freak, if that is not clear enough for you then you are simply too stupid for me to waste my time with. If you wish to be intellectually honest from this point on then I will be happy to continue with you. However, if you continue with such characterizations of my position then I will assume that you are either incredibly idiotic or a liar (in the case of being a liar you would also prove yourself to be a hypocrite). Either way, I will end my participation in this conversation.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

 

[Clete]

If any of you have not read the story Freak posted for me to investigate as a verifiable miracle, I post the meat of the story here for you to read so that everyone knows what we are dealing with.
I will attach a link to the title so that you can see it on Mr. Gunn's own web site if you wish...

Pastor Nathan Gunn's Personal Testimony

"I was born and raised in a small town named Ada in Oklahoma. I attended church as a youngster and continued all through high school. At the tender age of 10, I invited Jesus Christ into my heart. At the age of 17, at the beginning of my senior year in high school, a significant event happened to me that changed my life forever. One day, while fooling around on the rooftop where I was employed, I came into contact with 12,500 volts of electricity. It knocked me off the building. I dropped two and one-half stories landing on my head. Unfortunately, the impact of the fall crushed my face and skull.

I lay on the ground for about 20 minutes before an ambulance arrived. They drove me to the local hospital, but they were not equipped to treat my injuries. They transported me by helicopter up to Oklahoma City, which was 100 miles away. The nurses and medical staff on duty all believed I would not survive the injuries. Later one of the nurses, a family friend, conveyed this information to my family. To give you an idea of how serious my injuries were my mother was called in to the hospital room to identify me. She did not recognize me. She said, "This is not my son." This was due to the trauma to my face and skull. A moment later, she finally recognized me by the shoes I was wearing.

In the meantime, when word of my accident reached the people of my town, the church body began to pray for me. Everyone in my church community rallied together in prayer. They set up shifts and prayed throughout the night. One of the ladies in my church recalled, the Holy Spirit revealed to her that I had been healed. At that same moment, in mid-flight to the hospital, I quit screaming and moaning.

I arrived at the hospital and the doctors immediately began exploratory surgery to determine the extent of the burn wounds to the inside of my body. They could see that the electricity had caused an entrance and exit wound. It had entered through my left hand and exited through my right hip. The doctors believed it must have passed through the vital organs at least once. Typically electricity will bounce around inside the human body until it finds an exit. After examining me, the doctors determined that there was no pathway for the electricity inside my body! I had an entrance and an exit wound caused by the electricity, but there was no electrical pathway inside my body. That is an incredible miracle! They stitched me up and prepared to treat me for my impact wounds. Some of my organs were bleeding due to the impact of the fall and two-thirds of my upper body had third degree burns from the flash of electricity. The burns began healing right away without medical intervention. In about 10 days my skin was healed. After 10 days they reconstructed my skull, face and crushed forehead. One of my eyes had been moved out of place. During a 12-hour operation, the surgeons removed splinter bones and wired together the shattered bones in my face and skull. After surgery they told me I would not have a sense of taste or smell due to the injuries I sustained.

To make a long story short, within 3 weeks, I walked out of the hospital with perfect 20/20 vision; I had my sense of taste and smell. My kneecap was shattered. I had a cast on my leg. My head was shaved, with a barely noticeable surgery scar on my hairline and under my eye. What a gift from God, I was alive and did not have brain damage, I healed quickly and I did not have to go back for any follow up surgeries. The only lasting problems I have are a little pain in my knee and some scars."

Look Freak if I'm going to investigate the veracity of a physical miracle then you might want to supply me with something that can in fact be called a bona fide miracle.
This may be a very fascinating and incredible medical story but it doesn't qualify as an act of God. Now if this guy’s eye ball had been in a plastic bag on the way to the hospital and then he walked away with 20/20 vision then that would be a good one. But the fact that this guy walked away from this only proves that he had skilled doctors!
"Lasting problems"? Come on! What sort of God do you serve, Freak? If God wanted to perform a miracle here, why do it in such a behind the sceans sort of way? If he was healed in the helicopter on the way to OKC then why were the doctors needed to reconstruct his face? Why would God play pick a boo with a miracle? Wouldn't it have been more consistent with Biblical type miracles for the nurses and pilots on the helicopter to have been astonished that the man they took off with is now just fine and sitting up talking with everybody as they land on the hospitals roof?
This story is no different than every other "modern miracle" that I've ever heard of. If the injury is visible or in some other way obvious then the healing occurs over some period of time, sometimes shorter than expected and sometimes not, but never instantaneously. If the injury is either internal or in some other way invisible then that’s the only time you ever get reports of instantaneous healings and then only when the injury is utterly unconformable to have ever existed in the first place. This story is interesting in that Mr. Gunn was creative enough to have included both types of unconfirmable miralces in one story!

Feel free to try again Freak. This one was so easy to debunk that a phone call wasn't even necessary. Mr. Gunn’s own testimony never presented a miracle that needed confirming in the first place! If I had realized that it was going to be this easy I would have dove in on it several days ago!

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

 

[godrulz]

Clete: You cried wolf many posts ago and said you were done here. Personally, I would like your views to continue. It seems everyone is arguing in circles. I think your demand for physical evidence is a bit flawed, especially since it is out there (I follow many credible ministries, not all charismatic, that report blatant miracles on the mission field...in my circles, it is not an issue since there is no doubt the miracles happen...you seem to think it is impossible that God has done even one miracle in the world lately due to your desire to retain your theology at all costs....apart from evidence or Scripture, your position is absurd and limits the sovereigty of God. I still do not understand why God would stop doing miracles...if it has something to do with dispensations, then your understanding is TOO extreme...as would us saying miracles and healings are daily events for every believer).

Acts 1:1 "...I wrote about all that Jesus BEGAN to do and to teach..."

The canon is closed, but the Book of Acts (the history of the Church) is still being written in heaven and earth.

"You know, Jesus never was a 'has-benn'. People talk about HIm and say things like 'in His day'... as though He is not able to do the same TODAY. His day is now and forever. No circumstandces affect Him. Time and distance does not change His attitude. He is the same wonder-working Jesus today. Acts 1:1 tells us that the work He did He had ONLY BEGUN!"

- Bonnke

There is a reason Reinhard Bonnke was called by God to reach the continent of Africa. He had mission, vision, faith, and anointing to see the lame walk, the blind see, the deaf hear (docmented miracles at his crusades). Millions of Africans will be in the kingdom because of the preaching of the Gospel with signs following to set people free and make them whole. The love and power of God. The reason your church does not see these things (vs Assemblies of God, etc.) is due to bad theology leading to unbelief and the quenching and grieving of the Spirit.

Perhaps someone you know will need God's intervention. In His mercy and grace, I pray that He demonstrates Himself for His glory and your good. I know you are smart, and I am sure you would revisit your theology. Incidently, my wife has MS and is not being healed by God and may never be healed. This does not change my experience and convictions based on my relationship with God and knowledge of His Word.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by godrulz

Clete: You cried wolf many posts ago and said you were done here.

I wasn't crying wolf, although I understand why you say this. I had fully intended to be done with this last week but it's amazing how much a POTD motivates one to continue.

Personally, I would like your views to continue.

I appreciate you saying so but you'll have to speak with Freak about it. It will be up to him.

It seems everyone is arguing in circles.

So much so that I'm going nuts!

I think your demand for physical evidence is a bit flawed, especially since it is out there (I follow many credible ministries, not all charismatic, that report blatant miracles on the mission field

So what? There are lots of otherwise credible people who claim that UFO's have landed in their back yard and taken them to other worlds and done experiments on them and such. Do you believe these things have happened as well?
Further, Thomas was shown physical evidence when he demanded it. And before you start calling me a doubting Thomas, keep in mind that my demand for physical evidence is only my debating tactic not my basis for what I do or do not beleive.

...in my circles, it is not an issue since there is no doubt the miracles happen...you seem to think it is impossible that God has done even one miracle in the world lately due to your desire to retain your theology at all costs

This has never been true of me. I used to argue with my Sunday School teachers when I was in 6th grade, insisting that what they taught was not consistent with what the Bible said and I was usually (although not always) right! If you have a problem with my position then show me were the flaw is otherwise simply saying that it's flawed doesn't get us anywhere.
Further, there is plenty of doubt that miracles happen and I do not think that it is "impossible" for God to have done anything. A belief that God is not doing something is not the same as believing that He cannot do it at all. That's the strength of my position! It is falsifiable. If you can demonstrate that modern physical miracles are happening then it is my Biblical position that needs modification. The fact that you cannot shows that it is you who are turning a blind eye to a total lack of cooberating evidence in order to maintain a theological position at any cost

....apart from evidence or Scripture, your position is absurd and limits the sovereignty of God.

It is you that lacks evidence not me. If miracles are happening as you say then show me the evidence.

I still do not understand why God would stop doing miracles...if it has something to do with dispensations, then your understanding is TOO extreme...as would us saying miracles and healings are daily events for every believer).

We've already discussed why, although it is in fact a separate issue. The reason why God is not performing miracles is because of the track record they have of turning a tiny minority of people to God and causing the vast majority of people who witness such miracles to harden their hearts and hate God even more than they did before God performed the miracle in the first place. In short, God is not performing miracles because He loves us and doesn't want us to end up in hell!

Perhaps someone you know will need God's intervention. In His mercy and grace, I pray that He demonstrates Himself for His glory and your good. I know you are smart, and I am sure you would revisit your theology. Incidentally, my wife has MS and is not being healed by God and may never be healed. This does not change my experience and convictions based on my relationship with God and knowledge of His Word.

Your wife has so much more of an opportunity to grow in her faith (as do you) without a physical miracle that it can hardly be overstated. Remember always what God said to Paul when he asked for a physical healing. "My Grace is sufficient for you."

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

 

[godrulz]

I agree that God's grace is sufficient and character can be built. Catholics are strong on accepting suffering as meritorious/virtuous (Christ suffered) and the will of God. This is quite Calvinistic/fatalistic. Can I remind you that you are an Open Theist who believes in an open creation? It should not surprise you that God may still want to intervene supernaturally. By your reasoning (miracles will harden us and send us to hell), God should withdraw the preaching of the Gospel, since rejection of it results in hell. The evidence I know of from ministries is that far more people come to Christ with miracles/healings than are turned away or have doubt created in their minds. The minority who hate God in the face of miracles is not a sufficient reason to argue against miracles in light of the multitudes who are positively impacted.


www.cfan.org

The millions of people you see hearing the Gospel on this sight are often at the crusades because word gets out that the risen Christ is doing what he did 2000 years ago (he is alive and meeting needs, validating the man of God and his message). Unlike you, these poor Africans know the spiritual realm as they are oppressed and bound by sin, sickness, and Satan. They need a Gospel with power to set them free, not a packaged theology that leaves them in bondage with more head knowledge explaining away the ways and wonders of the Living God.

Thomas was not rebuked for doubting. God can handle sincere doubt that is not mere agnostic skepticism. Your attitude seems more worthy of an atheist, so I hope you find the evidence you need. There are counterfeits and flakiness in this area, but there will be irrefutable evidence if you keep looking (UFOs are not in the same category as divine miracles; there is evidence for Satan doing supernatural things in our day...surely our enemy is not greater than God in his strategy and ability).

Peter Youngren www.peteryoungren.org is another ministry that routinely sees the miraculous as the Gospel is preached here and oversees.

John Wimber (deceased...Vineyard) and Peter Wagner (missiologist) (conservative seminary-trained evangelicals at one time) also build a Scriptural case with numerous confirmations of the relation between preaching the Gospel and signs/wonders/healings/deliverance.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by godrulz

I agree that God's grace is sufficient and character can be built. Catholics are strong on accepting suffering as meritorious/virtuous (Christ suffered) and the will of God. This is quite Calvinistic/fatalistic. Can I remind you that you are an Open Theist who believes in an open creation? It should not surprise you that God may still want to intervene supernaturally.

My position is not antithetical to Open Theism. Indeed, quite the reverse. It is the Calvinist who would argue that for God to stop performing physical miracles would be a change and therefore could not be the case. I as an Open Theist plainly declare the reverse.

By your reasoning (miracles will harden us and send us to hell), God should withdraw the preaching of the Gospel, since rejection of it results in hell.

Please don’t play word games with me. It’s beneath you to stoop to Freak’s mode of debate.
Faith is required for salvation and it is faith that is circumvented when positive proof is placed before your eyes in the form of physical miracles

The evidence I know of from ministries is that far more people come to Christ with miracles/healings than are turned away or have doubt created in their minds. The minority who hate God in the face of miracles is not a sufficient reason to argue against miracles in light of the multitudes who are positively impacted.

Without realizing it, you have argued against yourself. The Biblical evidence is quite the reverse. False miracles cause people to believe whatever the miracle performer says. It is only when genuine miracles occur that people get so angry at the prophet that they start to through stones at him or in the case of Jesus hang Him on a cross (The Plot goes into exhaustive detail on this particular aspect of our debate). So the fact that hundreds or thousands of people come clamoring to see the miracle man in action is evidence that he is a fraud. And by the way, so is the complete lack of verifiable physical evidence that any one of these thousands of miracles actually took place. Not to mention that these miracle performers never go to the local hospital and empty the place or anything like that. It’s always and only after the offering plate has been passed that the miracles start happening.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

 

[godrulz]

Why so cynical bro.? Jesus did not empty the leper colonies either (these guys don't empty hospitals...so?). No one said that miracles have to occur 100% of the time and be of a profound magnitude to be valid.

Christian evangelists with signs following have something the charlatons or demonically inspired wonder workers do not have. They see the miracles done in the NAME OF JESUS and preach the WORD OF GOD (not themselves). God is glorified and people are edified. You are dismissing profound and powerful ministries out of ignorance. I also recognize the showmen, but this does not invalidate the good ones.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Freak,
This is your final warning!

Look, Clete, these juvenille games from you is tiresome. These warnings make you look like a cry baby. "Give me back my ball, I'm going home." Stop pouting.

I have said before and I say it one LAST time that I believe what I believe about miracles based on perfectly legitimate Biblical reasoning.

This is a lie that you have believed in for some time now. I'm sorry you have rejected the New Covenant. I hope one day your heart will be open to receiving the New Covenant's teachings on this subject.

Let's start with some basics, Clete. Biblical basics you have not dealt with...

From Scripture we know that spiritual gifts are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42). Surely these needs still exist. Clete, you do believe these needs still exist--healing, deliverance, etc???? If they do then you have to agree that the present church has these gifts which include the gift of miracles.

Clete, it appears the Holy Scriptures do not make any distinction between what we call the "supernatural" gifts and the other "less" supernatural gifts (Note that they appear mixed together in Romans 12:6-8 and 1 Corinthians 12:28). You are seperating some gifts (i.e. gifts of miracles) from the others when the Biblical warrant isn't there. If we are going to deny the operation of "supernatural" gifts in this day, then it seems logical to deny all the gifts of the Spirit mentioned in these passages (not just some).

The "supernatural" gifts were not just the possession of the apostles in the Bible. Other non-apostles also were given supernatural gifts by the Spirit. (Take for example Luke 9:49-50 or Philip's use of the gifts in Acts 8:6,7,13). Were you aware of this????

If the primary purpose of miracles was to authenticate the Scriptures, as they ceased at the closing of the Canon, then why did any one else have a ministry of signs and wonders or miracles? Why did God give gifts of healing and miracles to the church? (1 Cor. 12:7-10; Gal. 3:5). I have never read or heard of a sufficient answer to that question. The church is still present and there is no reason to believe He doesn't give His church gifts that include the gifts of miracles.

If Jesus’ miracles were sufficient to authenticate him as the Son of God and to authenticate his message, why did the apostles have to do miracles? The standard reply is that the apostles had to do miracles to show that they were trustworthy witnesses to Jesus Christ and trustworthy teachers of doctrine. But why couldn’t they just preach about the miracles as much of the church does today? Can’t we be regarded as trustworthy witnesses today without doing miracles? If we can, then why did the apostles need miracles?

I am, however, debating this issue with you from a different perspective because our apposing views on the subject demand quite different things to be PHYSICALLY happening.

This completey flies in the face of Biblical thought. Clete, claims that physical evidence proves what God says is true or His miracles are true.. Jesus, who is God, stated, "Thy Word is truth." I believe Jesus and thereby don't need physical evidence. Jesus is the truth and speaks the truth--He says it, I believe it. Do you believe if Jesus says something is true, it's true regardless of physical evidence, Clete?

Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

What physical evidence is there regarding this truth statement?

Therefore, if you are unable to show that the necessary PHYSICAL activity is in fact happening then your Biblical position falls apart.

I'll prove how faulty this statement with this:

Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

What physical evidence is there regarding this truth statement? Just because you haven't seen any physical evidence of this, it is true nevertheless, because Jesus said it was true. Same with miracles. Jesus said that miracles occur. Clase close. Jesus speaks truth and I believe it.

And since we are interested in objective truth, then anecdotal stories are not good enough because we both know how easy it is for people to be convinced of almost anything, especially when they have very deep seated emotional reasons for wanting something to be true.

Case in point--you. You have been duped to believe miracles don't occur. We know the Scriptures didn't lead you to this conclusion. So it would be safe to say the Enyart materials led you to believe this.

What we need then is objectively verifiable physical evidence that supports your Biblical position.

Since when did this become a litmus test for doctrine? We believe God is triune in nature because the Bible says it's true not because there is physical evidence that points to that reality.

If none exist then your Biblical position is wrong.

Your wasting my time at this point. Because the Scriptures speak of the reality of miracles, I believe it. I don't need physical evidence. The words of Jesus is enough for me to believe.

If physical miracles are happening today then there will be physical evidence of such miracles, if they are not then that evidence will be absent and if they are not happen then the Bible will not be found to contradict that fact.

Ah! I trust God's Word for obejctive truth not physical evidence. Did Jesus ever say, "Thy physical evidence is truth." Or did He say, "Thy Word is truth."

Here is another example of a physical healing:

In July 2003 Pastor Kevin joined with Pastor Bill Reeder of Lakeland Florida for several days of ministry in the area of Guatemala City, Guatemala South America.

Their friend Pastor Mike Black who is a full time missionary in that area and the people of the area hosted them for a "Domingo de Milagros" or "Miracle Sunday" as we would call it. The people were ready to recieve and there were many miracles and instantly verifiable healings. Many more received healing that only doctor's tests would confirm and many were delivered from various bondages.

These verifiable healings can be attained here: To contact the church you may either email us at office@covenantwordchurch.org or write us at:

Covenant Word Church
PO Box 773
Key West, FL 33041

I'm sure you'll say but "Jay, these people are in Key West, I can't verify anyone in Key West because they live in South Florida and those live there can't be healed because they live too close to the beach." Your absurdity is annoying.

Now Freak, if that is not clear enough for you then you are simply too stupid for me to waste my time with. If you wish to be intellectually honest from this point on then I will be happy to continue with you.

This coming from a man who believes this: What we need then is objectively verifiable physical evidence that supports your Biblical position.

Since when did this become a litmus test for doctrine? We believe God is triune in nature because the Bible says it's true not because there is physical evidence that points to that reality. We believe miracles are for today because Jesus tells us so not because of some physical evidence. :kookoo: :kookoo:

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by godrulz

Why so cynical bro.? Jesus did not empty the leper colonies either (these guys don't empty hospitals...so?). No one said that miracles have to occur 100% of the time and be of a profound magnitude to be valid.

Christian evangelists with signs following have something the charlatons or demonically inspired wonder workers do not have. They see the miracles done in the NAME OF JESUS and preach the WORD OF GOD (not themselves). God is glorified and people are edified. You are dismissing profound and powerful ministries out of ignorance. I also recognize the showmen, but this does not invalidate the good ones.

:thumb:

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

In short, God is not performing miracles because He loves us and doesn't want us to end up in hell!

Strange, flawed, and unBiblical.

God performs miracle to testify, to confirm His glory, His salvation...

...how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

Because He loves us He reaches out and performs miracles...

Lord," they answered, "we want our sight."
Jesus had compassion on them and touched their eyes. Immediately they received their sight and followed him.

When Jesus heard what had happened, he withdrew by boat privately to a solitary place. Hearing of this, the crowds followed him on foot from the towns. When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them and healed their sick.

Clete, trust the Scriptures and not your emotions when dealing with this issue of miracles...

 

[godrulz]

I must admit that was one of the most indefensible statements the normally coherent and brilliant Clete has come up with

Freak: If you have the time, it would be good to include your excellent Bible reference (s) so they can check it in context (to feel its authority and clarity). The Word is clear as a bell; their twisting of ideas is confusing.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by godrulz

I must admit that was one of the most indefensible statements the normally coherent and brilliant Clete has come up with

My statement was not made in a vacuum. It's context preceded it.
"We've already discussed why, although it is in fact a separate issue. The reason why God is not performing miracles is because of the track record they have of turning a tiny minority of people to God and causing the vast majority of people who witness such miracles to harden their hearts and hate God even more than they did before God performed the miracle in the first place. In short, God is not performing miracles because He loves us and doesn't want us to end up in hell!"

The Plot as you guys have either claimed to have already read or are currently reading goes into almost painfully exhaustive detail on this issue, listing every miracle or set of miracles in the entire Bible and the accompanying results.

I for one am exceedingly glad that God is wise and loving enough to have kicked the crutch of miracles out from under the Body of Christ thereby allowing us to have the need of relying totally on His Grace. Without such need spiritual growth is impossible.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

 

[godrulz]

Given the comparative rarity of miracles, could it not be a both/and vs either/or scenari? i.e. we do primarily walk by faith and rely on grace, but this does not have to be at the expense of miracles for unbelievers confirming the Word (I think it is anecdotal to say that the majority of miracles will lead to unbelief...some witnesses will believe, and some will not...look at how many Catholics buy into Marian miracles or Satanists, etc.) or tokens of God's love and grace for believers = healings). Is it an argument from silence to conclude that Scripture records incidents of unbelief following miracles (does not mean there are not other cases where it did lead to faith...maybe not as many of these were recorded, though they happened? Freak has given verses that show belief resulted from miracles...it is a logical fallacy to make a generalization from a subset of all relevant information, while ignoring the other side of the coin).

Would ONE modern, documented, verifiable miracle done in the name of Jesus undermine your view or do we need thousands of a great magnitude and frequency?

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by godrulz

Given the comparative rarity of miracles, could it not be a both/and vs either/or scenari? i.e. we do primarily walk by faith and rely on grace, but this does not have to be at the expense of miracles for unbelievers confirming the Word (I think it is anecdotal to say that the majority of miracles will lead to unbelief...some witnesses will believe, and some will not...look at how many Catholics buy into Marian miracles or Satanists, etc.) or tokens of God's love and grace for believers = healings). Is it an argument from silence to conclude that Scripture records incidents of unbelief following miracles (does not mean there are not other cases where it did lead to faith...maybe not as many of these were recorded, though they happened? Freak has given verses that show belief resulted from miracles...it is a logical fallacy to make a generalization from a subset of all relevant information, while ignoring the other side of the coin).

There are over 300 miracles or groups of miracles in the Bible. The result of each is gone over one by one in The Plot. Some reaction was positive and when it was that is acknowledged, but the general/normal reaction was overwhelmingly negative. This is not arguing from silence at all. We are looking at the single largest collection of recorded miracles that exists and are specifically told what the results of those miracles were.

Would ONE modern, documented, verifiable miracle done in the name of Jesus undermine your view or do we need thousands of a great magnitude and frequency?

My immediate reaction to this question is that depends on the miracle. I tend to think that even one confirmed physical miracle would at minimum put a dent in my theological construct but frankly I can't really say for sure as I have yet to come across one. I honestly do not know what effect it would have if any. So lets get across the first bridge before we try crossing another.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

P.S. I would like to take a quick moment to thank you Godrulz for your intellectual honesty and respectful tone. Even if we never come to an agreement on this issue, at least I can know in advance that we will continue to respect one another well after this debate if over and forgotten about.
And please rest assured that this is a genuinely heart felt statement and that I'm not trying to be passively aggressive toward Freak. If I wanted to be aggressive toward Freak I wouldn't be and haven't been passive about it.
May God bless you and yours!