Freak challenges "The Plot" over miracles

[Freak]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Nothing short of verifiable evidence will satisfy me!

God's Word isn't enough evidence for you, huh?

Do you really think that a judge would even allow a case to go to court based on the flimsy evidence that you and Freak have presented on this thread?

Yep, the liberal courts would throw out the Word of God as you have done. Nicer then God aren't you.

All I've asked for is a single piece of verifiable evidence and you guys haven't even been able to come up with that!

But, to give him the benefit of the doubt let's examine the Biblical foundations for why we believe miracles are for today...

First of all, we know in the Holy Scripture that it declares that spiritual gifts, which includes the gift of miracles, are given to serve the Body of Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:7

Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.

1 Corinthians 14:26

What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church.

To equip people to share the gospel.

Matthew 10:19,20

But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

Luke 4:18

"The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to release the oppressed,"

1 Corinthians 2:13

This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.

To show God's compassion and concern for His people.

Matthew 14:13-14

When Jesus heard what had happened, he withdrew by boat privately to a solitary place. Hearing of this, the crowds followed him on foot from the towns. 14When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them and healed their sick.

Matthew 20:29-34

As Jesus and his disciples were leaving Jericho, a large crowd followed him. Two blind men were sitting by the roadside, and when they heard that Jesus was going by, they shouted, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on us!"
The crowd rebuked them and told them to be quiet, but they shouted all the louder, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on us!"
Jesus stopped and called them. "What do you want me to do for you?" he asked.
"Lord," they answered, "we want our sight."
Jesus had compassion on them and touched their eyes. Immediately they received their sight and followed him.

Mark 1:40-42

A man with leprosy came to him and begged him on his knees, "If you are willing, you can make me clean."
Filled with compassion, Jesus reached out his hand and touched the man. "I am willing," he said. "Be clean!" Immediately the leprosy left him and he was cured.

Nowhere in Scripture are we told this gift was taken away from the church.

In fact we are told the gift of miracles is given to the Body...

Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

Secondly, at least six times in Paul’s writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christ’s example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Clete, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.

Thirdly, God's Word tells us that miracles have a divine purpose that God promises will be carried out:

...how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

God says He uses miracles to testify, to confirm of His goodness, His glory, His salvation. Who are you to tell us God doesn't have a purpose for miracles when in fact He does? If He gave His Body the gift of miracles, which He has, then it is safe to say He still performs miracles. This despite what you personally believe.

Never mind coming up with anything that resembles an undeniable miracle!

Clete, Theo, Godrulz, and myself have all shared (along with several other posters) our personal encounters with miracles. I have witnessed hundreds of miracles. Hundreds of people being healed and delivered from demons. You reject my testimony, you reject theo's and you reject Godrulz's. So, we now turn to the Biblical record which is clearly in our favor. Now, we ask you to deal with the reality of God's Word on this subject...

And that is my entire point! You guys go around making Christians look like idiots to the whole unbelieving world by calling nearly everything that happens a miracle

Such the drag queen Clete has become. Instead of reacting out of uncontrolled ungodly emotion respond to objective truth as presented in Holy Scripture.

and then when someone (especially a fellow believer) asks you to prove that what you say is happen is in fact actually happening you can't do anything but accuse them of a lack of faith

Where did I say that?

In fact there are people who spend their full time trying to verify miracle claims and who offer large monetary rewards for presenting verifiable proof of even a single miracle and they come up empty handed!

Yes, there are atheist organizations out there hating Jesus and His resurrection. You don't have to side with the liberals, Clete.

You call me dumb all you want but it you that has to sleep at night wondering why nobody anywhere has ever been able to put people like me who ask hard nosed questions in our place.

Your dumb Clete because you reject the evidence provided in Holy Scripture regarding this issue.

Why doesn't God perform public, undeniable, supernatural miracles for the world to see?

He does but you have rejected it.

Why only after the offering plate has been passed?
Why?

Huh? You must be watching too much television again. Get away from the television and live a real life.
:kookoo:

 

[Freak]

1Way & Clete, allow the Scripture (the truth) and not physical evidence be your guiding light to truth. For Jesus once said, "Thy Word is truth." He didn't say, "Thy physical evidence is truth."

Do Right and Risk the Consequences. :crackup:

 

[Servo]

:freak: =:doh:

 

[1Way]

Shimei - I thought you were the best, but then I saw your tag line, please explain the following.

"Do not judge. All sins are equal. Hate the sin and love the sinner. There is a reason for everything."

:doh:

Are you promoting these ideas? Normally one does not espouse a truth claim unless they think it is true.

 

[1Way]

Freak - God's word and physical evidence is not an either or situation. God's word establishes many physical realities upon which our faith is edified, like the new creation from the indwelling spirit of God in believers today, the fact that creation, including man’s conscience, is such that it declares even the invisible attributes of God being clearly seen. Special and general revelation are each connected together and are not exclusivist like you pretend to convey. But then again, I’m only being reasonable and I’m basing my faith accurately upon God’s word, unlike yourself.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by 1Way

Freak - God's word and physical evidence is not an either or situation.

Physical evidence proves, in the law books, that same sex marriages are legal (in some nations), nature has been changed, considered legal. In God's eyes, however, it is considered illegal, evil, wrong. God's Words trumps physical evidence found in the law books of the nations. Do right, 1Way and risk the consequences. Allow yourself to consumed with Godly thoughts regarding this matter not unGodly thoughts.

.... and I’m basing my faith accurately upon God’s word, unlike yourself.

This coming from a guy that quotes nothing from the Biblical record on the subject. What a joke. You have trusted in physical evidence while I have trusted in the truth in the testimony of Jesus Christ and the objective standard of God's Word.

So, in light of this, feel free to deal with the Biblical record...

First of all, we know in the Holy Scripture that it declares that spiritual gifts, which includes the gift of miracles, are given to serve the Body of Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:7

Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.

1 Corinthians 14:26

What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church.

To equip people to share the gospel.

Matthew 10:19,20

But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

Luke 4:18

"The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to release the oppressed,"

1 Corinthians 2:13

This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.

To show God's compassion and concern for His people.

Matthew 14:13-14

When Jesus heard what had happened, he withdrew by boat privately to a solitary place. Hearing of this, the crowds followed him on foot from the towns. 14When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them and healed their sick.

Matthew 20:29-34

As Jesus and his disciples were leaving Jericho, a large crowd followed him. Two blind men were sitting by the roadside, and when they heard that Jesus was going by, they shouted, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on us!"
The crowd rebuked them and told them to be quiet, but they shouted all the louder, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on us!"
Jesus stopped and called them. "What do you want me to do for you?" he asked.
"Lord," they answered, "we want our sight."
Jesus had compassion on them and touched their eyes. Immediately they received their sight and followed him.

Mark 1:40-42

A man with leprosy came to him and begged him on his knees, "If you are willing, you can make me clean."
Filled with compassion, Jesus reached out his hand and touched the man. "I am willing," he said. "Be clean!" Immediately the leprosy left him and he was cured.

Nowhere in Scripture are we told this gift was taken away from the church.

In fact we are told the gift of miracles is given to the Body...

Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

Secondly, at least six times in Paul’s writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christ’s example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Clete, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.

Thirdly, God's Word tells us that miracles have a divine purpose that God promises will be carried out:

...how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

God says He uses miracles to testify, to confirm of His goodness, His glory, His salvation. Who are you to tell us God doesn't have a purpose for miracles when in fact He does? If He gave His Body the gift of miracles, which He has, then it is safe to say He still performs miracles. This despite what you personally believe.

Clete and 1Way, Theo, Godrulz, and myself have all shared (along with several other posters) our personal encounters with miracles. I have witnessed hundreds of miracles. Hundreds of people being healed and delivered from demons. You reject my testimony, you reject theo's and you reject Godrulz's. So, we now turn to the Biblical record which is clearly in our favor. Now, we ask you to deal with the reality of God's Word on this subject...

 

[godrulz]

'Charismatic Chaos' (MacArthur) may explain some of the phenomenon (some things are psychological or demonic), and Pentecostals would also share his concerns about the lunatic fringe of the charismatic movement. We would disagree with his anti-charismatic bias, hermeneutics, and limited understanding of genuine, biblical Pentecostalism. Discernment, not negation, would be supported by better books than this diatribe.

 

[Servo]

Originally posted by 1Way

Shimei - I thought you were the best, but then I saw your tag line, please explain the following.

"Do not judge. All sins are equal. Hate the sin and love the sinner. There is a reason for everything."

:doh:

Are you promoting these ideas? Normally one does not espouse a truth claim unless they think it is true.

:1Way:

My tag line is TOTAL sarcasm. I am trying to point out how stupid those cliques are. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[theo_victis]

ONEWAY -


"A little less subjective personal cut downs, a little more concrete reasonable argumentation, if you will."


byte your own words why dont you?

a quote from you:

"Freak = swallow a camel and strain out a nat."

and by the way its gnat not nat. Just playing around. he he he!

 

[theo_victis]

Clete-

"Show me a person who was blind and can prove that they were blind and that now has 20/20 vision.
Show me a person who had one leg and can prove that they only had one leg and now has two perfectly functioning legs.
Show me a person who was deaf and can prove that they were deaf who can now hear perfectly without the use of any technology but simply with there own two ears."


here is your proof. I once had malaria and a group of eighteen people prayed over me and then i was healed. There are over 20 people to testify to this. Or wait, they must have been decieved.

i cant send you medical records but its true.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by theo_victis

I can't send you medical records but....

I'm shocked! :shocked:

I never would have guessed!

Leaving sarcasm behind...

You understand that you expect me to except your word as proof that you are right.

I'm sorry but it doesn't work that way. It's not that I think you are lying, in fact I'm quite sure you believe what you say to be true, but your sincerity isn't proof. If you’d step back a moment and think it through unemotionally, you would see that for yourself.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

I'm shocked! :shocked:

Theo, don't waste your time on Clete. He's a hater of Scripture. He's more interested in "physical" evidence then the objective truth found in Holy Scripture. He doesn't even trust Jesus, so why would he trust any of His followers and their testimonies of God's power.

Leaving sarcasm behind...

That's not the only thing you have left behind. I've noticed you have left your brain behind....

I'm sorry but it doesn't work that way. It's not that I think you are lying, in fact I'm quite sure you believe what you say to be true, but your sincerity isn't proof.

I think based on what I have read from Clete it's safe to say he's not a believer in Christ. Remember Clete, It's not that I think you are lying that you're a Christian, in fact I'm quite sure you believe what you say to be true, but your sincerity isn't proof.

 

[1Way]

Shimei - :thumb:

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by godrulz

We would disagree with his anti-charismatic bias, hermeneutics, and limited understanding of genuine, biblical Pentecostalism. Discernment, not negation, would be supported by better books than this diatribe.

:thumb:

 

[1Way]

Clete - Also, as though physical healing is not part of the natural laws. I was sick and I was prayed for and I was healed, but that does not mean it was a miracle. Now, that guy who instantly grew a hand from a deformed stub, that, would NOT be a natural healing.

Like I said, if we don’t establish what a miracle actually and biblically is, we will be running around in circles talking past each other.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by 1Way

Like I said, if we don’t establish what a miracle actually and biblically is, we will be running around in circles talking past each other.

That's already been established. Get with the program. Just because you say we haven't doesn't mean that is the case.

 

[1Way]

godrulz says... so what, consider the source

godrulz says... so what, consider the source

Freak you quoted godrulz saying

We would disagree with his anti-charismatic bias, hermeneutics, and limited understanding of genuine, biblical Pentecostalism. Discernment, not negation, would be supported by better books than this diatribe.

Consider the source.

Your quoting a man who has devoted decades of research and personal investment into Pentacostlism, but when pressed to understand God’s word about the nature of the two very different groups of believers explained within Paul’s epistle’s (*1*), he says, I don’t have the expertise to do that, why don’t you do that instead.

(*1*) This is in reference to Paul teaching that in Christ there is no more Jew nor Gentile, slave nor free, etc. i.e. we are all one in Christ, I think there are 2 or so such haulmark teachings, and the fact is that Paul teaches about the differences between these two groups in about every book he wrote and at great length, the raw data alone about these difference that Paul teaches is somewhat staggering especially when you consider that there isn’t supposed to be any such differences between the Jew and the gentile, that is, via the non-dispensation-ally aware mindset.

So if godrulz shows some affinity against a writing that disagrees with his mindset, his bias is only too obvious. He would not even do a robust search over all the audience differentiations for the circumcision and the uncircumcision writings beyond a superficial inquiry. His faith is not about conforming it to the bible, it’s about conforming to Pentecostal tradition.

 

[1Way]

freak - You right, by your own logic, just because you say it has been established, doesn't mean it has.

Obviously we disagree about what a miracle really is, you aren't even able to defend your view against Bob's teaching (about what a biblical miracle is), because you don't even know what it is. You certainly never even represented it prior to arguing against it. :kookoo:

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by 1Way

freak - You right, by your own logic,

It's not that I think you're lying when you say you really believe you're right on this issue, in fact I'm quite sure you believe what you say to be true, but your sincerity isn't proof.

Furthermore....Deception doesn't speak well of you...My objective truth is the Holy Scripture regarding this issue.

So, in light of this, feel free to deal with the Biblical record...

First of all, we know in the Holy Scripture that it declares that spiritual gifts, which includes the gift of miracles, are given to serve the Body of Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:7

Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.

1 Corinthians 14:26

What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church.

To equip people to share the gospel.

Matthew 10:19,20

But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

Luke 4:18

"The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to release the oppressed,"

1 Corinthians 2:13

This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.

To show God's compassion and concern for His people.

Matthew 14:13-14

When Jesus heard what had happened, he withdrew by boat privately to a solitary place. Hearing of this, the crowds followed him on foot from the towns. 14When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them and healed their sick.

Matthew 20:29-34

As Jesus and his disciples were leaving Jericho, a large crowd followed him. Two blind men were sitting by the roadside, and when they heard that Jesus was going by, they shouted, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on us!"
The crowd rebuked them and told them to be quiet, but they shouted all the louder, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on us!"
Jesus stopped and called them. "What do you want me to do for you?" he asked.
"Lord," they answered, "we want our sight."
Jesus had compassion on them and touched their eyes. Immediately they received their sight and followed him.

Mark 1:40-42

A man with leprosy came to him and begged him on his knees, "If you are willing, you can make me clean."
Filled with compassion, Jesus reached out his hand and touched the man. "I am willing," he said. "Be clean!" Immediately the leprosy left him and he was cured.

Nowhere in Scripture are we told this gift was taken away from the church.

In fact we are told the gift of miracles is given to the Body...

Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

Secondly, at least six times in Paul’s writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christ’s example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Clete, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.

Thirdly, God's Word tells us that miracles have a divine purpose that God promises will be carried out:

...how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

God says He uses miracles to testify, to confirm of His goodness, His glory, His salvation. Who are you to tell us God doesn't have a purpose for miracles when in fact He does? If He gave His Body the gift of miracles, which He has, then it is safe to say He still performs miracles. This despite what you personally believe.

Clete and 1Way, Theo, Godrulz, and myself have all shared (along with several other posters) our personal encounters with miracles. I have witnessed hundreds of miracles. Hundreds of people being healed and delivered from demons. You reject my testimony, you reject theo's and you reject Godrulz's. So, we now turn to the Biblical record which is clearly in our favor. Now, we ask you to deal with the reality of God's Word on this subject...

Obviously we disagree about what a miracle really is,

No. We disagree on the issue of miracles being given to the Body today. I embrace a Biblical position, you embrace a Plot position.

you aren't even able to defend your view against Bob's teaching (about what a biblical miracle is), because you don't even know what it is.

Jesus tells us casting out of demons is a miracle...

Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us."
"Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us.

Do you agree that casting out demons is a miracle, in light of what Jesus said?

 

[1Way]

what an honor!

what an honor!

Freak – That is very nice of you to let 540 posts go by without presenting anything beyond a claim or superficial understanding of what Bob teaches, only to seek my challenging your views instead.

Thanks for thinking so highly of me that we should focus on "my" thoughts against yours, instead of "your" thoughts against Bob's. But in this thread, we are waiting to hear your challenge against what Bob actually teaches, not what you assume he teaches, not just his resulting claims, but what he actually teaches about miracles.

That was the reason this entire thread was created, so we patiently await you doing what you said you would do.

So, lets get on with it, 1) present Bob’s view about what a miracle is, and then 2) demonstrate what is wrong it that accurately produced teaching.