Freak challenges "The Plot" over miracles

[Freak]

Re: what an honor!

Re: what an honor!

Originally posted by 1Way

Freak – That is very nice of you to let 540 posts go by without presenting anything beyond a claim or superficial understanding of what Bob teaches,

You have already stated on this thread that what I presented as my understanding of what Enyart teaches on this subject as being "accurate."

So, lets get on with it, 1) present Bob’s view about what a miracle is, and then 2) demonstrate what is wrong it that accurately produced teaching.

That has already been accomplished. We have found, in light of the Biblical record, that Enyart is in error.

So, let's move on to you...

Jesus tells us casting out of demons is a miracle...

Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us."
"Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us.

Do you agree that casting out demons is a miracle, in light of what Jesus said?

 

[1Way]

Freak - I said that you represented just one aspect of what Bob teaches accurately, not remotely anything substantial or that such an isolated occurrence accurately reflects what Bob actually teaches.

You have not represented a single one of His teachings, within any refutation, a reader should be able to reconstruct the refuted position accurately, if not, then the refutation may not suit the position because of a glaring lack of faithful representation.

You have NOT accurately represented Bob’s teaching on anything, I’ve asked this of you before and you just claimed you did, but no one has yet seen you represent what Bob teaches beyond a simple claim or a superficial understanding. If you think you have done as much, then reference me the exact post, I searched all over and have found nothing substantial. Remember, a teaching would be much like you are doing, reason your understanding, demonstrate from scripture, develop your view, perhaps make more scripture references, and conclude and summarize.

A claim is not an entire teaching
A disagreement is not a refutation
An argument is not a point-counter-point

If you can’t first accurately represent that which you think is wrong, then you are boldly proclaiming your ignorance and dishonest prejudice. But then again, I'm only being reasonable and honest.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by 1Way

Freak - I said that you represented just one aspect of what Bob teaches accurately...

And that one aspect that we exposed tore down his foundation which he based all of his other faulty beliefs on. Biblical apologetics is quite easy when you go for the foundations which we did. In light of God's revealed Word, Enyart's view on miracles is found in error!

Remember, a teaching would be much like you are doing, reason your understanding, demonstrate from scripture, develop your view, perhaps make more scripture references, and conclude and summarize.

So, in light of this, feel free to deal with the Biblical record...

First of all, we know in the Holy Scripture that it declares that spiritual gifts, which includes the gift of miracles, are given to serve the Body of Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:7

Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.

1 Corinthians 14:26

What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church.

To equip people to share the gospel.

Matthew 10:19,20

But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

Luke 4:18

"The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to release the oppressed,"

1 Corinthians 2:13

This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.

To show God's compassion and concern for His people.

Matthew 14:13-14

When Jesus heard what had happened, he withdrew by boat privately to a solitary place. Hearing of this, the crowds followed him on foot from the towns. 14When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them and healed their sick.

Matthew 20:29-34

As Jesus and his disciples were leaving Jericho, a large crowd followed him. Two blind men were sitting by the roadside, and when they heard that Jesus was going by, they shouted, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on us!"
The crowd rebuked them and told them to be quiet, but they shouted all the louder, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on us!"
Jesus stopped and called them. "What do you want me to do for you?" he asked.
"Lord," they answered, "we want our sight."
Jesus had compassion on them and touched their eyes. Immediately they received their sight and followed him.

Mark 1:40-42

A man with leprosy came to him and begged him on his knees, "If you are willing, you can make me clean."
Filled with compassion, Jesus reached out his hand and touched the man. "I am willing," he said. "Be clean!" Immediately the leprosy left him and he was cured.

Nowhere in Scripture are we told this gift was taken away from the church.

In fact we are told the gift of miracles is given to the Body...

Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

Secondly, at least six times in Paul’s writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christ’s example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Clete, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.

Thirdly, God's Word tells us that miracles have a divine purpose that God promises will be carried out:

...how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

God says He uses miracles to testify, to confirm of His goodness, His glory, His salvation. Who are you to tell us God doesn't have a purpose for miracles when in fact He does? If He gave His Body the gift of miracles, which He has, then it is safe to say He still performs miracles. This despite what you personally believe.

A claim is not an entire teaching
A disagreement is not a refutation
An argument is not a point-counter-point

Your wisdom pales to the Biblical record.

For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.

 

[1Way]

freak - :doh: You are violent and crooked. Deal uprightly what what you said you would do. We are still waiting for you to accurately represent and refute Bob's teachings on miracles.

Perhaps you should just be honest and admit that you have no plans on doing what you said you would do, in this your thread of refutation against Bob’s teachings.

 

[1Way]

freak - :doh:

“Your” wisdom pales to the Biblical record.

For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.

Anything but a direct point and counter point, isn’t that so freak? If you can’t take the heat, then get out of the kitchen.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by 1Way

freak You are violent and crooked.

You're one of those Nicer Than God types that fails to deal with His Word and instead indulges in fallacies. This is wicked. You have done a disservice to yourself by not examining the Word of God on this subject.

We are still waiting for you to accurately represent and refute Bob's teachings on miracles.

Mission already accomplished. He was found in Biblical error!

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by 1Way

freak -:

“Your” wisdom pales to the Biblical record.

No, this is your darkened mind attempting to understand the Scriptural evidence that we have provided.

Anything but a direct point and counter point, isn’t that so freak?

You resorted to man's wisdom. I responded by bringing down your argument with Scripture...

For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.

Pretty direct. I knew it worked as your flesh rose up against it. :down:

 

[Servo]

Here is Fraud's "counter-point" to every point ever made against any of his posts.

Fraud:

You are wrong; the answer is in the Bible.

Homework for anyone who disagrees with Fraud:

You need to read the Bible.

Could you be anymore general Fraud? Maybe if you quote the same verses over and over again we will someday understand.

Homework for Fraud:

Learn how to debate.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Shimei

Maybe if you quote the same verses over and over again we will someday understand.

Godrulz, light, theo, have all seen the following Scriptural evidence ignored. We know why. It's because the Word stands on it's own and has defeated the plot materials.

Perhaps, Shimei you'd like to take a jab...

First of all, we know in the Holy Scripture that it declares that spiritual gifts, which includes the gift of miracles, are given to serve the Body of Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:7

Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.

1 Corinthians 14:26

What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church.

To equip people to share the gospel.

Matthew 10:19,20

But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

Luke 4:18

"The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to release the oppressed,"

1 Corinthians 2:13

This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.

To show God's compassion and concern for His people.

Matthew 14:13-14

When Jesus heard what had happened, he withdrew by boat privately to a solitary place. Hearing of this, the crowds followed him on foot from the towns. 14When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them and healed their sick.

Matthew 20:29-34

As Jesus and his disciples were leaving Jericho, a large crowd followed him. Two blind men were sitting by the roadside, and when they heard that Jesus was going by, they shouted, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on us!"
The crowd rebuked them and told them to be quiet, but they shouted all the louder, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on us!"
Jesus stopped and called them. "What do you want me to do for you?" he asked.
"Lord," they answered, "we want our sight."
Jesus had compassion on them and touched their eyes. Immediately they received their sight and followed him.

Mark 1:40-42

A man with leprosy came to him and begged him on his knees, "If you are willing, you can make me clean."
Filled with compassion, Jesus reached out his hand and touched the man. "I am willing," he said. "Be clean!" Immediately the leprosy left him and he was cured.

Nowhere in Scripture are we told this gift was taken away from the church.

In fact we are told the gift of miracles is given to the Body...

Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

Secondly, at least six times in Paul’s writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christ’s example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Clete, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.

Thirdly, God's Word tells us that miracles have a divine purpose that God promises will be carried out:

...how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

God says He uses miracles to testify, to confirm of His goodness, His glory, His salvation. Who are you to tell us God doesn't have a purpose for miracles when in fact He does? If He gave His Body the gift of miracles, which He has, then it is safe to say He still performs miracles. This despite what you personally believe.

 

[freelight]

the release of the Spirit.....

the release of the Spirit.....

Hi All,

I would like to reiterate that I have shared about the element of faith in all the works of God - God acting and manifesting His presence in all things - miraculous or not. The element of faith cannot be brushed aside....as Jesus teaches much on faith...and that it has greater powers than we can imagine. This faith is of course of the substance of God himself.....a spiritual generation active in the human heart/soul.

Bob may have his 'opinion' based on his view of scripture and experience....concerning miracles. He may have supporters of his view. Just as many if not more....believe otherwise....and place no limit or restriction upon Gods power working within and in the midst of Gods people. I have chosen to allow the Spirit of God full liberty and the free exercise of faith in the new convenant ministry....as to include all the charismas of the Spirit - and the powers of God to operate as the Spirit wills and as faith allows...as this is the ministry of the Spirit in this day and Age.
We have been given the same Spirit that raised the Christ from the dead....and therefore have the power and authority of our Head...whose body we are - we are one. Christ maintains all spiritual power and authority in the earth...and we are his body. All the gifts of the Spirit are ours for the work of the ministry...and the edification of the eclessia. The church would be impotent without the anointings of the Spirit. We have the Spirit and all the gifts.....for God has not left his body unequipped. In a day when Gods power and unctions are so needed......we need even more of the Holy Spirits power, wisdom, guidance and special anointings to do the work of God. Anyone who for some doctrinal view holds the presupposition that the Spirits power has been withdrawn, dinimished or taken from the church is spiritually blind and bereft of the faith of God.

Again,.....you will have, touch, taste and experience whatever your faith allows. If your faith-extension does not include miracles(of any kind or degree)...then you shall have as you believe. All manners of inspired speech (prophesy, wisdom, knowledge, oracles, song, psalms, tongues, etc.) are still active today in and thru those vessels who will be used of God for his glory - with all these are gifts of healing, MIRACLES, administrations, giving, and on and on. As believers filled with the faith and power of God...we believe God wholly! And our faith is released in the infinite and eternal power of the Spirit. We abide in the fullness of God.......and walk in the Spirit. Our faith is generated and fortified in the supreme sufficiency of the Christ - the faith he taught and spoke of...is cherished, held and exercised by his faithful ones - they go forth and do the works of God......and even greater works as he promised. The disciple went forth in faith and did miracles of healing....and deliverance.....even before they received the fuller measure of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost! They had faith. Now we have faith and the Spirit of God in us...working thru us....as anointed ones. The liberty of Gods Spirit to rule and regin in our midst is present NOW! O glory.


Again,.....those who have not the ears to hear or eyes to see...and are not attending a church where faith is not taught - these ones will not have faith to believe God for greater things - things that he has promised and are already ours in Christ! The faithful ones do not focus on miracles - we have the faith of God and Christ in us - we preach with goodnews....and signs and wonders follow! The fruits of faith ripen and the glory of God manifests when the word of faith is preached - for faith comes by hearing - if the preacher is not teaching/preaching the word of God which inspires faith...how can they have faith?

So...it really matters as far as what one believes and concludes...who he is sitting under or allowing to be his 'teacher'. Those under this teacher can only receive what this teacher preaches - his lot with be their lot. Like produces like - each seed after its own kind.

I choose to believe in the liberty of the Spirit.....and that faith the size of a grain of mustard seed can be the spring-board from which wonderful things can transpire and manifest. What an awesome and mighty God we serve. The gifts and charismas of the Spirit are in full operation and accessibility to those workers in the harvest....who will accept and receive them...and be a great force and healing presence in the world...as they go forth in Jesus name and proclaim the good news. Jesus sends us forth as beacons of light.....ministers of healing....carriers of good news.

The miracle deniers here are an example of placing one mans teaching and/or dispensational view above the full context of NT scripture and more importantly the teaching of Jesus. The teachings of Jesus on faith are apparent in the gospels - but these are denied because of lack of faith...and holding to a doctrine that has been formed because of lack of evidence - which is 'lack of faith' to believe Jesus. Its an easy way out to intellectualize that miracles have ceased - how pathetic. Now wonder the pagans, witches, satanists, occultists pitty-potty all over the bereft and faithless 'christians' who are devoid of the Spirits power.


Jesus calls us forth in faith....to have faith...express faith....minister in faith...walk in faith.....live faith. Paul further teaches that God has given His church the workings of the Spirit to do and carry on the work of God. God bless those who have the faith of Jesus...and do the works of God. All shall have according to their faith.




paul

 

[1Way]

You have God's word, and then you have man's

You have God's word, and then you have man's

A wicked and perverse generation seeks a sign...

(I don’t promote seeking after signs and wonders, do you?)

Even if the dead is raised, they still will not believe...

(Wow, was Jesus serious? Many people think that the more miraculous the better! The more miraculous the more faith would increase. Jesus must have meant something else, because many reject this teaching in favor of a longstanding tradition of seeking after signs.)

Faith is the substance of things not seen, the evidence of things hoped for...

(Wow, a miracle cancels out the use of faith by definition.)

 

[freelight]

twisted logic.......

twisted logic.......

Originally posted by 1Way

A wicked and perverse generation seeks a sign...

(I don’t promote seeking after signs and wonders, do you?)

Even if the dead is raised, they still will not believe...

(Wow, was Jesus serious? Many people think that the more miraculous the better! The more miraculous the more faith would increase. Jesus must have meant something else, because many reject this teaching in favor of a longstanding tradition of seeking after signs.)

Faith is the substance of things not seen, the evidence of things hoped for...

(Wow, a miracle cancels out the use of faith by definition.)

)=============no one is seeking a sign but you miracle deniers. JESUS said signs and wonders would follow those who believe. If you dont see them......perhaps you should check your 'faith' - yet still deny what Jesus taught about faith.

Faith is indeed the substance - faith is the essence that one must have before any and all manifestations of God are realized, had and enjoyed. Clete is particularly denying faith by demanding to be SHOWN something first - he wants to SEE the Evidence first - THIS IS NOT FAITH! Faith must be first in the Invisible...then it is brought forth into the visible - we need to start understanding the dynamics of faith.

I am not sure if you demand to be shown miracles just as ardent as Clete - neither do I agree with your estimation of miracles above - I say faith is often the invisible generation power behind miracles. Of course when a miracles is fully realized, received, enjoyed - one has the actual full manifestations of it! - GLory to God!

Freaks thorough presentations of scripture supporting that miracles can be supports for faith among some seem to be ignored by you. WE walk by faith not by sight - we fully acknowlede this - this is elementary. WE also believe that anyone who works a miracle in Christs name......does so to glorify God...and in such God is glorified! We also believe that all the charismas of the Spirit are still operative in the church. I have further extended faiths role and primacy in many manifestation of miracles. This discussion actually expands beyond Bobs definition of 'miracle' and his dispensationalism. Much could be learned that Bobs teaching cannot afford to his readers from posters on this thread. God will be all that He IS and all that He Will Be...to those who believe - those who please him....thru their faith. Remember the mustard seed.


paul

 

[godrulz]

Re: You have God's word, and then you have man's

Re: You have God's word, and then you have man's

Originally posted by 1Way

A wicked and perverse generation seeks a sign...

(I don’t promote seeking after signs and wonders, do you?)

Even if the dead is raised, they still will not believe...

(Wow, was Jesus serious? Many people think that the more miraculous the better! The more miraculous the more faith would increase. Jesus must have meant something else, because many reject this teaching in favor of a longstanding tradition of seeking after signs.)

Faith is the substance of things not seen, the evidence of things hoped for...

(Wow, a miracle cancels out the use of faith by definition.)

I suspect these verses are a historical narrative with Jesus giving a general principle about a specific group of hard-hearted people in His day. This does not negate the didactic passages that show the benefits to the Church or unsaved.

We are to seek the Healer, not the healing; the Giver, not the gift. Motive is the key, not the validity of God's power. If we ask for the Spirit and His manifestations, He promised to not give us a rock.

Jesus's words should not be pitted against Pauline teaching to produce a contradiction. A proper interpretation, in context, will expose the wrong interpretation, and affirm the validity of healing, etc. for the Body of Christ and the lost.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Perhaps this discussion would progress to a higher level if we distinguished miracles into two classes--"evidential" miracles and miracles which cannot be seen or proven.

Surely the "new birth" is one of the greatest miracles of all,and this miracle continues to happen to those who believe the gospel today.But it is not an "evidential" or "public" miracle which followed those who believed during the Acts period.

Those miracles were given in order to "confirm" the "gospel of the kingdom:

"And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following"(Mk.16:20).

We are not to preach the "gospel of the Kingdom" at this time,so therefore these evidential miracles are no longer needed.

These miracles were given to accredit the Teacher and those who were followers of Him.The OT prophecies spoke of a Messiah who would come doing miracles (Isa.61:1-2;Lk.4:18).

If the Lord Jesus did not come doing miracles such as healing He would have been dismissed outright as being an imposter.So in this sense we can see that "external evidence" such as these evidential miracles were used to accredit the "gospel of the Kingdom".

As long as the word of God continued to be preached to the Jews these "evidential" miracles remained in place.But after the preaching of the "kingdom" ceased to be preached to the Jews (at Acts 28) then the "evidential" miracles no longer had a place in the purposes of the Lord God.

The days of the "rushing mighty wind",the "tongues of fire"(Acts2:2,3),and the earthquakes shock(Acts4:31;16:23) are past.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

Perhaps this discussion would progress to a higher level if we distinguished miracles into two classes--"evidential" miracles and miracles which cannot be seen or proven.

Okay. First of all, you're making a classification where there is no Biblical warrant for such. The Body has been given a "gift of miracles." Period.

Let's start here...

Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us."
"Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us.

Jesus equated the ministry of casting out demons as a miracle in His name, as the context clearly dictates. Do you see this miracle as one that "evidential" or a miracle that cannot be seen (such supernaturally healing of the broken hearts, the conversion experience, etc). Jerry, do you believe demons can still inhabit people today? Do you believe believers can still cast out demons?

Surely the "new birth" is one of the greatest miracles of all,and this miracle continues to happen to those who believe the gospel today.

I agree.

These miracles were given to accredit the Teacher and those who were followers of Him.The OT prophecies spoke of a Messiah who would come doing miracles (Isa.61:1-2;Lk.4:18).

If Jesus’ miracles were sufficient to authenticate him as the Son of God and to authenticate his message, why did the apostles have to do miracles? The standard reply is that the apostles had to do miracles to show that they were trustworthy witnesses to Jesus Christ and trustworthy teachers of doctrine. But why couldn’t they just preach about the miracles as much of the church does today? Can’t we be regarded as trustworthy witnesses today without doing miracles? If we can, then why did the apostles need miracles?

Furthermore...If the primary purpose of miracles was to authenticate the Scriptures, as they ceased at the closing of the Canon, then why did any one else have a ministry of signs and wonders or miracles? Why did God give gifts of healing and miracles to the church? (1 Cor. 12:7-10; Gal. 3:5). I have never read or heard of a sufficient answer to that question. The church is still present and there is no reason to believe He doesn't give His church gifts that include the gifts of miracles.

As long as the word of God continued to be preached to the Jews these "evidential" miracles remained in place.But after the preaching of the "kingdom" ceased to be preached to the Jews (at Acts 28) then the "evidential" miracles no longer had a place in the purposes of the Lord God.

You're making a classification where there is no Biblical warrant for such. The Body has been given a "gift of miracles." Period.

Let me remind you of the biblical position...

First of all, we know in the Holy Scripture that it declares that spiritual gifts, which includes the gift of miracles, are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42). Nowhere in Scripture are we told this gift was taken away from the church.

Secondly, at least six times in Paul’s writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christ’s example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Clete, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.

Thirdly, God's Word tells us that miracles have a divine purpose that God promises will be carried out:

...how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

God says He uses miracles to testify, to confirm of His goodness, His glory, His salvation. Who are you to tell us God doesn't have a purpose for miracles when in fact He does?

 

[Freak]

Re: Re: You have God's word, and then you have man's

Re: Re: You have God's word, and then you have man's

Originally posted by godrulz

I suspect these verses are a historical narrative with Jesus giving a general principle about a specific group of hard-hearted people in His day. This does not negate the didactic passages that show the benefits to the Church or unsaved.

We are to seek the Healer, not the healing; the Giver, not the gift. Motive is the key, not the validity of God's power. If we ask for the Spirit and His manifestations, He promised to not give us a rock.

Jesus's words should not be pitted against Pauline teaching to produce a contradiction. A proper interpretation, in context, will expose the wrong interpretation, and affirm the validity of healing, etc. for the Body of Christ and the lost.

:thumb:

 

[theo_victis]

Whatever, freak and i are right about the miracles that take place in the world. Believe what you want to believe. All i care is that atleast 5 people for sure are going to heaven because of these miracles that they and i witnessed. Why dont you go up to them and tell them that what they saw wasnt real, what they witnessed was "natural" and was only coincidental that IMEADIATLEY after we prayed for them they were healed. Tell them that they placed their faith into nothing. Tell that it was all a big fat lie. Tell me that!

Then i need you to do this for me:

Prove to me that Jesus exsisted. AH HA! you cant! Because according to your definations of verifible evidence, a testimony isnt one of them. So why do you believe? The bible is a testimony, it isnt physical proof! It is the old and new testimonies! It is not physical proof.

Are you seeing my point? There is an element to faith for all of this. Of course Jesus exsisted, of course he is God and of course the bible is God breathed. But it takes faith for you to see that. Just as it takes faith that there is a heaven and we will go there, so does believing in the work of God.

Are you all denying the idea that God is powerful and still works? It seems to me that you like it that way. You seem to like to think that God isnt really intervening and he just is kinda there in the all powerful form.

God is the same yesterday today and forever. He does not decieve. Dont you know salvation is a miracle? It is a gift of eternal life! Do you deny the idea that occurs too???? Of course you dont! So why do you deny God doing miracles??

Quit being so cynical. Oneway, Clete, your logic is distorted. It does not matter if you believe they happen or not because they do.

I was just told by one of my proffesors (who is a friend of mine) that a man from india was saved in result of their son being risen from the dead. Praise God for that! oh wait you would rather call him and my proffesor a liar.

God bless your souls, may you see the truth..... if only.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by Freak
Jerry, do you believe demons can still inhabit people today? Do you believe believers can still cast out demons?

I have never seen any evidence that demons are possessing men at this time.I seriously doubt that those from Rome who claim to cast out demons do in fact have the power to cast out demons.

If Jesus’ miracles were sufficient to authenticate him as the Son of God and to authenticate his message, why did the apostles have to do miracles?

Isn't it evident that the "healing" was a part of their ministry?Look at Matthew 4:23 and isn't that fact evident?

Perhaps the Lord did not want to leave Israel with any excuse for not accepting Him.Now He can say,Did I not send My apostles healing all manner of sicknesses in order that you might know that they were sent of God just as was My Son?

Furthermore...If the primary purpose of miracles was to authenticate the Scriptures, as they ceased at the closing of the Canon, then why did any one else have a ministry of signs and wonders or miracles?

I do not believe that the miracles were given to "authenticate the Scriptures" but instead to authenticate those who were sent of God.

In fact,we read that "He did not many mighty works because of their unbelief"(Mt.13:58).

Why did God give gifts of healing and miracles to the church? (1 Cor. 12:7-10; Gal. 3:5). I have never read or heard of a sufficient answer to that question. The church is still present and there is no reason to believe He doesn't give His church gifts that include the gifts of miracles.

As I said previously,when the Lord Jesus ministered to the children of Israel it was necessary that He must do miracles in order to fulfill the OT prophecies that spoke of Him.And when the word went to the Gentiles I believe that signs were given to them in order that the Jews would know that Paul was in God's will when he went to them.As long as the "gospel of the kingdom" continued to be preached to the Jews the "signs" remained a part of the Lord's purposes.

You're making a classification where there is no Biblical warrant for such. The Body has been given a "gift of miracles." Period.

After the Acts period when the words ceased to be preached to the nation of Israel we read the following from the pen of Paul:

"Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick"(2Tim.4:20).

If Paul's ministry at the time this epistle was written why would Paul not just heal Trophimus insrtead of leaving him there in Miletum sick?This is the same Paul whose healing power is described so clearly in the Acts period:

"So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them"(Acts 19:12).

First of all, we know in the Holy Scripture that it declares that spiritual gifts, which includes the gift of miracles, are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42). Nowhere in Scripture are we told this gift was taken away from the church.

If the gift that was given to the church has not been taken away then why do we not ever hear anyone in the churches today speak a language that they have never studied and have no knowledge of as did those at Acts 2:6-11?

In other words,those believers at Acts 2 were able to speak in "known" languages even though they had no knowledge of those languages.Those in the churches today are unable to speak in any "known" languages of which they have no knowledge.

And what about this verse:

"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover"(Mk.16:17,18).

There are many deadly poisions out today that will kill anyone who would ingest but just a small amount of them.Is anyone willing to take those deadly poisions in order to prove that these words of Jesus Christ are for today?

If they would take them and remain alive then I am sure they would find a large audience to demonstrate this miracle.They would bring many unbelievers to their ministry in order that they might hear the word of God.But I am not aware of any professing Christian who has enough belief in there immunity to deadly poisions that they would in fact ingest the poision that I would choose to give them.

And during the Acts period the Apostles were able to heal people with "outward" infirmities.Why is it that today the faith healers are unable to do the same thing?Why is it that they cannot heal a deformed arm or something of that nature?

Secondly, at least six times in Paul’s writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christ’s example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9).

You make a good point for my argument.If we are to follow him in regard to his gifts then should not there be many beliers today who are able to follow his actions as recorded in the following erse?:

"So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them"(Acts 19:12).

If you are correct then perhaps it is only Benny Hinn and those like him who are following Paul.

Thirdly, God's Word tells us that miracles have a divine purpose that God promises will be carried out:

...how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

Again,if I could see Christians being able to duplicate the miracles which Paul performed during the ACts period then I would believe that miracles are for today.But the absence of similiar miracles leads me to believe that evidential miracles are not for today.

Who are you to tell us God doesn't have a purpose for miracles when in fact He does?

If "miracles" are for today then I cannot understand why believers cannot duplicate the miracles that were performed during the Acts period.And I am not aware of the following events happening today:

"And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them"(Acts2:1-3).

If these things are for today then would we not also see "cloven tongues like as of fire" sit upon those who believe?

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

I have never seen any evidence that demons are possessing men at this time.

You got to be kidding me. Just because you haven't seen the evidence doesn't mean there isn't any. When did demons stop possessing people, Jerry according to Scripture. Don't give me your hunch or idea but Scriptural support. In the New Covenant people were possessed by demons and during the tribulation period the anti-Christ will be possessed by a fallen angel-Satan.

I seriously doubt that those from Rome who claim to cast out demons do in fact have the power to cast out demons.

Who cares what Rome thinks. The apostle Paul had authority to drive out a demon in Acts 16.

Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling. This girl followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, "These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved." She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so troubled that he turned around and said to the spirit, "In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!" At that moment the spirit left her.

Isn't it evident that the "healing" was a part of their ministry?

Yes. This healing ministry continues today in the church for God gives His Body the gift of healing.

There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit...

Now He can say,Did I not send My apostles healing all manner of sicknesses in order that you might know that they were sent of God just as was My Son?

The "supernatural" gifts were not just the possession of the apostles in the Bible. Other non-apostles also were given supernatural gifts by the Spirit. (Take for example Luke 9:49-50 or Philip's use of the gifts in Acts 8:6,7,13). Were you aware of this. Besides, First Corinthians 12 speaks of the Body (not necessarily apostles) were given the gifts of miracles.

I do not believe that the miracles were given to "authenticate the Scriptures" but instead to authenticate those who were sent of God.

Jerry think this through Biblically...The Holy Scriptures don't seem to make any distinction between what we call the "supernatural" gifts and the other "less" supernatural gifts (Note that they appear mixed together in Romans 12:6-8 and 1 Corinthians 12:28). You are seperating some gifts (i.e. gifts of miracles) from other when the Biblical warrant isn't there. If we are going to deny the operation of "supernatural" gifts in this day, then it seems logical to deny all the gifts of the Spirit mentioned in these passages (not just some).

As I said previously,when the Lord Jesus ministered to the children of Israel it was necessary that He must do miracles in order to fulfill the OT prophecies that spoke of Him.

Let's turn to what the Scriptures teach...

We see throughout the New Covenant that Jesus did miracles to show God's compassion and concern for His people.

Matthew 14:13-14

When Jesus heard what had happened, he withdrew by boat privately to a solitary place. Hearing of this, the crowds followed him on foot from the towns. 1When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them and healed their sick.

Matthew 20:29-34

As Jesus and his disciples were leaving Jericho, a large crowd followed him. Two blind men were sitting by the roadside, and when they heard that Jesus was going by, they shouted, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on us!"
The crowd rebuked them and told them to be quiet, but they shouted all the louder, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on us!"
Jesus stopped and called them. "What do you want me to do for you?" he asked.
"Lord," they answered, "we want our sight."
Jesus had compassion on them and touched their eyes. Immediately they received their sight and followed him.

Mark 1:40-42

A man with leprosy came to him and begged him on his knees, "If you are willing, you can make me clean."
Filled with compassion, Jesus reached out his hand and touched the man. "I am willing," he said. "Be clean!" Immediately the leprosy left him and he was cured.

"Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick"(2Tim.4:20).

God doesn't heal all, sometimes He allows people to suffer for one reason or another. Look at Paul, he was afflicted by a demon and the Lord would not deliver him.

But, as I pointed out, the Body has been given the gift of healing. This gift ought to be used to bring healing. Imagine that.

This is the same Paul whose healing power is described so clearly in the Acts period

Jerry, you haven't thought this through have you? Paul's gifts were subject to God's will. God doesn't save everyone and He doesn't heal everyone, but He does heal some and save some.

If the gift that was given to the church has not been taken away then why do we not ever hear anyone in the churches today speak a language that they have never studied and have no knowledge of as did those at Acts 2:6-11?

A moderator on TOL (ebenz) has testified of experiencing what you have just mentioned. Ask her. Btw, I have also witnessed this phenomena several times.

Those in the churches today are unable to speak in any "known" languages of which they have no knowledge.

So says you. The Bible says differently...

Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command. If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored. Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.

Paul was clear that the church does have the gift of tongues and we ought not to forbid the use of them. If He gives the gift then I know people have the gift, thereby using it.

There are many deadly poisions out today that will kill anyone who would ingest but just a small amount of them.Is anyone willing to take those deadly poisions in order to prove that these words of Jesus Christ are for today?

Jesus said it, I believe it. If God can heal and I know He can, then alittle poison isn't something He can't stop from hurting someone.

But I am not aware of any professing Christian who has enough belief in there immunity to deadly poisions that they would in fact ingest the poision that I would choose to give them.

But Jesus can.

And during the Acts period the Apostles were able to heal people with "outward" infirmities.Why is it that today the faith healers are unable to do the same thing?

I don't know about faith healers but I do know about those who follow Jesus. God has given His Body the gifts of miracles and healing. If He has then He's still in the business of healing all kinds/forms of afflictions. Nothing is impossible with Him.

Why is it that they cannot heal a deformed arm or something of that nature?

You're focused on people where I'm focused on Jesus. Jesus can heal deformed people and still does.

If we are to follow him in regard to his gifts then should not there be many beliers today who are able to follow his actions as recorded in the following erse?

I have personally been used by the Lord to deliver hundreds of people from demons and have witnessed many people being healed.

If you are correct then perhaps it is only Benny Hinn and those like him who are following Paul.

I'm not familiar with Benny so I can't comment. But there are believers right here on this forum who have testified of God's supernatural power--Ebenaz, Godrulz, Gavin, Free, Theo, myself, etc...

Again,if I could see Christians being able to duplicate the miracles which Paul performed during the ACts period then I would believe that miracles are for today.

You should believe in miracles because of objective truth not due to your experiences. Bad theology you have there, Jerry.

First of all, we know in the Holy Scripture that it declares that spiritual gifts, which includes the gift of miracles, are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42). Nowhere in Scripture are we told this gift was taken away from the church.

But the absence of similiar miracles leads me to believe that evidential miracles are not for today.

Where is the evidence for the belief in the God's nature being triune? Besides the Scriptures.

If "miracles" are for today then I cannot understand why believers cannot duplicate the miracles that were performed during the Acts period.

But they are. Besides, you should believe in the reality of miracles because God still gives the gift of miracles to His Body in light of 1 Cor. 12, Gal. 3:5, etc.

If these things are for today then would we not also see "cloven tongues like as of fire" sit upon those who believe?

In His grace,--Jerry

You sound more like an atheist then a believer. Are you not indwelt with the Holy Spirit? This is a supernatural occurance that cannot be explained in the physical, it's spiritual. Same with these spiritual elements, they need to be understood spiritually.

Homework:

If the primary purpose of miracles was to authenticate the apostles, as you claim, then why did any one else have a ministry of signs and wonders or miracles? Why did God give gifts of healing and miracles to the church? (1 Cor. 12:7-10; Gal. 3:5). I have never read or heard of a sufficient answer to that question.

Jerry, I noticed you completely ignored this...At least six times in Paul’s writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christ’s example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Poster, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.

 

[godrulz]

Jerry:

Millions of classical Pentecostals speak in tongues as the Spirit gives utterance and view it as the initial, physical evidence of the fullness of the Spirit. Hundreds of millions of Pentecostal-charismatic believers speak in tongues, even if they do not see it as the initial evidence. Tongues of fire was a one time sign that the Spirit had been given to the Church at Pentecost (one time event). Speaking in tongues is the initial evidence for believers that the Spirit is filling them in a new dimension subsequent to salvation. Fire was when the Spirit was GIVEN (once) and tongues is when the individual RECEIVES the power of the Spirit (many times since many believers are involved). There was no further record of Fire after Pentecost, so it is not normative for the individual like tongues can be (this experience is for all believers for power to be a witness and to have a heavenly prayer language).

We do not believe all people are healed all the time. Paul leaving someone sick does not negate the many times healing did happen through his ministry. We see many healed today, but many are not. God is sovereign.

Mark 16 is valid (some MSS do not have it) but is not to be understood presumptiously that we should handle snakes and drink poison to test God. There are records of this happening accidently where God intervenes to save people (e.g. Paul was not hurt by a snake in Acts).

We do not need identical to NT or dramatic miracles happening everyday for them to be real and edifying in our day.