Forced Vaccination is Wrong

[elohiym]

Nobody can accurately predict when a vaccine will not convey immunity but we have reason to believe that they are immune. Children who are not vaccinated are known not to be immune. So if you can't prove your child has been vaccinated, they should reasonably be excluded from attending functions where they might be exposed. I don't ignore the facts, I understand how the facts impact the discussion.

Are you going to exclude the children with medical exemptions to vaccination, too? Yes, or no?

Its a key point in your claims against vaccines. You make it sound as though each and every vaccination us at emanate risk of mutation.

No, you just misinterpret what I'm claiming. My claims about live attenuated viruses only apply to certain vaccines.

When asked to support your assertion you go into a two step and never answer the question.

You don't answer the questions you ask or expect scientists should have answered already. You want me to tell you the rate of mutation of live attenuated viruses. How am I supposed to determine that? And if I can't, then you think I am supposed to ignore the scientific consensus it's possible for live attenuated viruses to mutate?

 

[CabinetMaker]

Are you going to exclude the children with medical exemptions to vaccination, too? Yes, or no?

Given that my niece falls into this category, there is no need. Her parents are responsible for her and keep her out of situations that put her at risk. Parents of immuno compromised children know haw to keep their kids safe. See, you don't care if your kid gets sick. You just assume they'll be sick fir a while and then they'll be fine. I know that there are kids for whom a case of measles is fatal.

No, you just misinterpret what I'm claiming. My claims about live attenuated viruses only apply to certain vaccines.

Measles being one of them. Back up your claims.

You don't answer the questions you ask or expect scientists should have answered already. You want me to tell you the rate of mutation of live attenuated viruses. How am I supposed to determine that? And if I can't, then you think I am supposed to ignore the scientific consensus it's possible for live attenuated viruses to mutate?

I guess my explication about tunneling was to advanced for you. I guess my explanation about the difference between 1:100 and 1:1,000,000,000 was to complex for you to follow. It's simple. If the odds are such that one injection out of every ten has mutated, that risk is to high. If the odds are one in every one million injections then the risks may become acceptable. That is why knowing what the odds of mutation are us so important. I would be willing to bet that the odds of mutation are neatly zero while the odds of an improperly prepared batch are not zero but are getting lower as technology improves and better manufacturing controls are implemented.

 

[1PeaceMaker]

I would be willing to bet that the odds of mutation are neatly zero while the odds of an improperly prepared batch are not zero but are getting lower as technology improves and better manufacturing controls are implemented.

What living virus never mutates on a normal day?

Just as natural selection has shaped the evolution of humans, plants, and all living things on the planet, natural selection shapes viruses, too. Though viruses aren’t technically living – they need a host organism in order to reproduce – they are subject to evolutionary pressures.

http://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/articles/viruses-and-evolution

Living hosts have the potential to harbor radical changes.

Viral evolution is a subfield of evolutionary biology and virology that is specifically concerned with the evolution of viruses. Many viruses, in particular RNA viruses, have short generation times and relatively high mutation rates (on the order of one point mutation or more per genome per round of replication for RNA viruses). This elevated mutation rate, when combined with natural selection, allows viruses to quickly adapt to changes in their host environment.

Viral evolution is an important aspect of the epidemiology of viral diseases such as influenza (influenza virus), AIDS (HIV), and hepatitis (e.g. HCV). The rapidity of viral mutation also causes problems in the development of successful vaccines and antiviral drugs, as resistant mutations often appear within weeks or months after the beginning of the treatment. One of the main theoretical models to study viral evolution is the quasispecies model, as the viral quasispecies.


...The morbilliviruses, for example, are a group of closely related, but distinct viruses that infect a broad range of animals. The group includes measles virus, which infects humans and primates; canine distemper virus, which infects many animals including dogs, cats, bears, weasels and hyaenas; rinderpest, which infected cattle and buffalo; and other viruses of seals, porpoises and dolphins.[23] Although it is not possible to prove which of these rapidly evolving viruses is the earliest, for such a closely related group of viruses to be found in such diverse hosts suggests the possibility that their common ancestor is ancient.[24]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viral_evolution

Seems pretty obvious you won't be able to stop a virus from mutating in a child's body.

 

[1PeaceMaker]

Given that my niece falls into this category, there is no need.

In other words, she gets to enroll. Nice.

Her parents are responsible for her and keep her out of situations that put her at risk. Parents of immuno compromised children know haw to keep their kids safe.

By denying her access to schools?

See, you don't care if your kid gets sick.

Are you for real???

You just assume they'll be sick fir a while and then they'll be fine.

You could have just asked how he deals with contagions.

I know that there are kids for whom a case of measles is fatal.

And for those kids, the common cold is just as scary, right?

See, this thread is about parents who are trying to protect their children from forced vaccination. So why don't you stay on topic.

You need to justify using force on other people's kids for an opinion you don't share in common with disagreeing but loving, concerned parents.

 

[1PeaceMaker]

You could write "but." No surprise.

Of course.

But then, he is trying to justify force and the violation of people's consciences after all. :idunno:

Feel free, CM, to distance yourself from forcing parents to violate their children and consciences with vaccines.

 

[Rusha]

See, this thread is about parents who are trying to protect their children from forced vaccination. So why don't you stay on topic.

You need to justify using force on other people's kids for an opinion you don't share in common with disagreeing but loving, concerned parents.

As long as those children are not allowed/accepted to enroll in public or private schools (and endanger other children) there shouldn't be a problem. You would be fine with that, right?

 

[CabinetMaker]

In other words, she gets to enroll. Nice.

She didn't enroll.

By denying her access to schools?

Yes.

Are you for real???

i may be engaging it a bit of hyperbole. I am sure you care when your child gets sick. But you still assume that they will get better regardless of what they get sick with.

You could have just asked how he deals with contagions.

That does not change his assumptions about the risks associated with the diseases his kids might contract.

And for those kids, the common cold is just as scary, right?

Absolutely.

See, this thread is about parents who are trying to protect their children from forced vaccination. So why don't you stay on topic.

you have yet to establish that the risks of vaccination are greater than the risks of the wild viruses they protect against.

You need to justify using force on other people's kids for an opinion you don't share in common with disagreeing but loving, concerned parents.

It is known that vaccines are effective in preventing diseases. Let's look at the flu. Today, we don't worry about the flu overly much. For a healthy individual, the flu is nasty but survivable. It wasn't all that long ago that influenza, the flu, killed tens of thousands of people. When a pandemic or epidemic of a particular virus takes hold and threatens to kill thousands, if a virus exists, forced vaccination is a prudent, albeit encasing, measure to protect public health.

You would isolate those infected and let them live or die and say that is God's will - isolate the infected. Forced vaccination would save those people by hopefully preventing them from getting infected in the first place.

We live in a crowded world. Public health is a major concern. You claim vaccinations are unsafe yet you cannot produce any evidence that vaccines are more dangerous than the diseases they protect against. If mandatory vaccination keeps us all safe from epidemics and pandemics, I think that is good for all.

Now, what are the risks associated with vaccines that scare you? Be specific and support your statements with research.

 

[CabinetMaker]

You could write "but." No surprise.

Its a matter of historical fact. Sorry you don't like it.

 

[CabinetMaker]

What living virus never mutates on a normal day?



http://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/articles/viruses-and-evolution

Living hosts have the potential to harbor radical changes.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viral_evolution

Seems pretty obvious you won't be able to stop a virus from mutating in a child's body.

Interesting. Do you believe in evolution? Do you believe that mutations make organisms stronger or weaker?

 

[resodko]

Forced Vaccination is Wrong


Can we all agree on that?

what child is going to agree to being poked with a needle?

 

[1PeaceMaker]

As long as those children are not allowed/accepted to enroll in public or private schools (and endanger other children) there shouldn't be a problem. You would be fine with that, right?

Why would it be a problem if my kid went to school unvaccinated?

Children like CM's niece should be the ones staying home. Or going to school in a bubble.

Meanwhile, I'd generally prefer to let your vaccinated kids who are measles positive and positive for so many other infections go to school and give each other all these infections, back and forth... ("asymptomatically" of course) because I'm not a control freak. Knock yourselves out.

And maybe, just maybe they are vaccinated for the flu shot yearly, so they will be giving each other the flu and so much more.

Maybe a little head lice, too...

 

[1PeaceMaker]

If you want you and your family to rot and die, go ahead. Just do it when you don't endanger anyone else with your sickly filth.

Did you just call innocent children "sickly filth"?

Do moderators allow Granite to call children "sickly filth" just because they didn't get unclean cultures jammed under their skin every year? :noway:

 

[Rusha]

Why would it be a problem if my kid went to school unvaccinated?

You homeschool, correct? Thererfore, it's not a problem. Other children will not be exposed.

 

[1PeaceMaker]

vaccinated children will not spread any infection. Your claim assumes that the vaccine readily mutates. Get together with you brother and present some research that supports your assertion

Brother? Who are you talking about? I've got lots of brothers in the Lord here, but which one? I don't have a blood brother of the flesh. Can you keep your facts straight, please?

I have. Your sources are not reliable.

You mean you are delusional. I've been quoting stuff like the CDC and the OP was from a group of actual practicing doctors who care about the vaccine debate and have legitimate concerns.

You just hate my conclusions. But I've seen no addressing of my actual arguments.

I am sorry that you fail to see the difference between genocide and a vaccination program.

Yes, I'm sure you'd like me to see a difference.

But while you are blissfully surrendering your body to them, you keep in mind that they have already sterilized women in the guise of protecting babies.

You are a very trusting person.

I bet you expect the Orthodox Jews to trust with you and roll up their sleeves. Aint gonna happen... :nono:

 

[1PeaceMaker]

You homeschool, correct? Thererfore, it's not a problem. Other children will not be exposed.

Exposed to what? Their excellent health?

You didn't answer me. I might send a kid to public school. I pay for it and have seven children.

 

[1PeaceMaker]

Interesting. Do you believe in evolution? Do you believe that mutations make organisms stronger or weaker?

You want to argue with virologists now? Knock yourself out. Your precious virologists are supposed to be the ones you trust to design your vaccines.

 

[1PeaceMaker]

Its a matter of historical fact. Sorry you don't like it.

You can't prove we needed to abuse Jews and force medical procedures on them to be as healthy and prosperous as we are today.

 

[Rusha]

Exposed to what?.

Diseases. You know. Those. Being. Vaccinated. Against.

 

[1PeaceMaker]

I am sure you care when your child gets sick. But you still assume that they will get better regardless of what they get sick with.

Oh. I see. So when your kid gets the sniffles you are scared?

If I thought my kids immune system was damaged and they got into some trouble that their body couldn't handle, the logical thing to do is use the modern medical knowledge we have to treat the illness.

That doesn't include jabbing them ahead of time. And most viruses have no vaccine for them. The kids that scare you when they are sick are too weak to use a vaccine to build a tolerance for those few certain infections. It would scare me more to jab a kid like that than treat their sniffles.

That does not change his assumptions about the risks associated with the diseases his kids might contract.

You are what people call... clueless. What is the point?

you have yet to establish that the risks of vaccination are greater than the risks of the wild viruses they protect against.

I don't care if it's a tossup or if the vaccine is more or less effective. Human rights.

Human rights.

That's what this thread is about!

It wasn't all that long ago that influenza, the flu, killed tens of thousands of people.

And once upon a time Typhoid was eliminated forever... and we all lived happily ever after. The end.

http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-flu-widespread-in-america-20150105-story.html

The flu is nowhere near defeated.

Last I checked, the navy said those flu vaccines are making things worse if you already had a flu vax in 2013.

You would isolate those infected and let them live or die and say that is God's will - isolate the infected. Forced vaccination would save those people by hopefully preventing them from getting infected in the first place.

"let them live or die" sounds like we wouldn't care for them tenderly and with all the wonders of modern medicine at our disposal.

I'd rather take my chances with death than live in a society where I am FORCED to trust whatever is in the needle. Optional is one thing.

Force is evil and creepy in the extreme! It is my body, my right.

We live in a crowded world.

So vaccinate them by force and we can have less of them. Right?

Public health is a major concern.

Then they must give a pint of precious blood upon graduation, unless given a limited medical exemption by the state-appointed medical exemption specialist.

And another upon enrolling in college.

And when filing tax returns.

You claim vaccinations are unsafe yet you cannot produce any evidence that vaccines are more dangerous than the diseases they protect against. If mandatory vaccination keeps us all safe from epidemics and pandemics, I think that is good for all.

I don't have to. If there is ANY risk. The risk is mine to take.

Protect the weaklings in a way that honors individual rights.

Now, what are the risks associated with vaccines that scare you? Be specific and support your statements with research.

The idea of force scares me. Why? Because they lie about what is in the vaccines sometimes. See what they did with the Tetanus vaccine to women in the name of preventing Neonatal Tetanus.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Brother? Who are you talking about? I've got lots of brothers in the Lord here, but which one? I don't have a blood brother of the flesh. Can you keep your facts straight, please?

I remember Dolo.

You mean you are delusional. I've been quoting stuff like the CDC and the OP was from a group of actual practicing doctors who care about the vaccine debate and have legitimate concerns.

You just hate my conclusions. But I've seen no addressing of my actual arguments.

You have posted many OP-ed pieces but you haven't posted anything in a peer reviewed journal that contradicts years of peer reviewed research showing vaccinations to be effective. Your posts from the CDC are known risks to vaccinations and nothing new. You haven't posted anything that causes me to that you know something my doctor does not.

Yes, I'm sure you'd like me to see a difference.

seriously? You don't see a difference between killing people and giving somebody a vaccine designed to prevent them from getting sick or from dying if they do?

But while you are blissfully surrendering your body to them, you keep in mind that they have already sterilized women in the guise of protecting babies.

Who was sterilized women? What is there motive? What is your evidence?

You are a very trusting person.

Yes, I am. These people you accuse of trying to poison our children are my friends and neighbors. Their kids go to school with my kids and we sit next to them in church in Sunday. They have no motive to do what you claim.

I bet you expect the Orthodox Jews to trust with you and roll up their sleeves. Aint gonna happen... :nono:

No idea what your on about here.