ECT Faith + Obedience = Salvation?

[glorydaz]

Sorry, you can't have it both ways. Future sins forgiven as you have stated they are in your belief is the justifying of them before they ever happen. It doesn't work that way unless one believes in grace being "cheap" as to it being of no concern because Jesus simply absorbs 'my' condemnation. He doesn't do that, ever. Does overcoming the flesh ring a bell in this as something man is enabled to do because of his new birth from above?

I didn't think you'd make it past three posts before you showed your true colors.
But, here it is on the fourth. Nice restraint, CR. :chuckle:

Did Christ die for all the sins of the world or not?

And, yes, that's exactly the way it works.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.​

Now, if you believe that, you can have life.

If you doubt it, you'll be stuck in that prison cell unable to see the door is wide open.

 

[glorydaz]

The language proves they were saved. You can't fall from a position you haven't attained.



Yes, by obedience to the gospel.
2 Thes. 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Yep, knowing not God is the same as not believing the Gospel.

Obeying the Gospel is believing it. This is what the righteousness of faith is all about.

Romans 10:15-17 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.​

All men were given Grace by the work of the Cross. Grace is a big tent that covers all men (It's the very blood of Christ). We cannot attain a position IN HIM without obeying the Gospel. Which not all had done in Galatia.

You cannot deny this verse...

Gal. 5:7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?​

OBEY THE TRUTH....has no other meaning for Paul than to obey the Gospel of Salvation. Grace is all well and good, but it's not salvation without faith.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Colossians 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;​

 

[glorydaz]

God's grace never gives license to sin.

Which of the Ten Commandments would you feel free to disobey, without remorse or confession and genuine repentance, in heart, mind, or will?

Would you so test God by practicing what is morally declared by God, as sin?

I never said it did. Why can't you answer my question?

I know why....you can't.

 

[turbosixx]

You make good points, and I agree with you mostly. This is what I see. If we look at the context, he is writing to Christians, that is the audience. Notice here he says IF you are circumcised then the result will be you fall from grace. They were in grace but if they choose to go back to the law then they fall.
5:2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.NKJV

You cannot deny this verse...

Gal. 5:7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?​

What is the truth that Paul is talking about? I suggest it's that circumcision has no place in the gospel based on the context. If they receive circumcision, then they are not obeying the truth.
Gal. 2:3 Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. 4 And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage), 5 to whom we did not yield submission even for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.
They were running well because they received the gospel without circumcision but men came in and distorted the truth.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

God's grace never gives license to sin.

Which of the Ten Commandments would you feel free to disobey, without remorse or confession and genuine repentance, in heart, mind, or will?

Would you so test God by practicing what is morally declared by God, as sin?

This is what I have been waiting for from you...

So you keep the 4th commandment? You do know that the 10 are as binding as the other 603... right?

Are you Keeping the Sabbath Nang? Oh... and how's James 2:10 working out for you? It now appears you have said that if a person sins... after salvation... willingly... they are turning Gods grace into a license to sin?

Are you now saying you never willfully sin anymore?

1 John 1:8

Aside from HIS Atonement... are you claiming to be worthy in the flesh?

 

[Lon]

This is what I have been waiting for from you...

So you keep the 4th commandment? You do know that the 10 are as binding as the other 603... right?

Are you Keeping the Sabbath Nang? Oh... and how's James 2:10 working out for you? It now appears you have said that if a person sins... after salvation... willingly... they are turning Gods grace into a license to sin?

You both seem to be arguing the concerns of Romans to me:
Romans 6:1 Romans 8:5

Romans 11:6 Galatians 2:21

Are you now saying you never willfully sin anymore?

1 John 1:8

Aside from HIS Atonement... are you claiming to be worthy in the flesh?

Romans 7:17 Galatians 2:20?

Just trying to help the conversation along. opcorn:

-Lon

 

[Nang]

I never said it did. Why can't you answer my question?

This question?

"Which commandment would condemn those who have been saved by Grace through faith?"

Duh . . .

Answer is: The moral commandments are holy and good and reveal the will and purposes of God.

None of them condemn. Failure of men to keep them, bring sin and condemnation into the world.

Jesus Christ incarnated under the Law. Did any iota of the Law condemn Him? No.

Why? Because He was holy and lived according to the Law. Jesus was never condemned under the Law, because HE NEVER BROKE THE LAW.

Being saved by HIS grace, apart from our failure to keep the Law for our salvation . . does not give any man the right or license to thereafter break the Law just because Christ shed His blood to justify sinners.

Such an attitude is to spit with disrespect and unbelief, on the cross work of Jesus Christ.

Antinomianism is lawlessness and your MAD arguments are Antinomian.

 

[jsanford108]

If that's true then Jesus didn't die for all sin....only those that fit a certain standard that no man seems to know.

]Eph. 2:5-9
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. ]

This is a false conclusion to my argument. I hate to use the term "straw man," (I do not think it was your intention to do) but it is. However, allow me to address the quote and its subsequent conclusions/arguments.

Christ bore the weight of sin, right? He bore the punishment. But did He pay for all sin? No. He did not. This is a simple logical conclusion.

Why does hell exist? As punishment for sin. If Christ bore the punishment of all sin, hell would not exist. Who goes to hell? People who don't have faith in Christ (typical answer). Is that not a sin? If so, Christ paid for that, no?

See the paradox?

People must work toward salvation. This does not do away with faith. Faith is necessary. But works come after faith, in order to sustain it. James says faith without works is dead. And other apostles agree with him (despite people claiming the contrary). (2 Cor 5:10, Rom 2:6, 11:22, and all of James).


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[glorydaz]

You make good points, and I agree with you mostly. This is what I see. If we look at the context, he is writing to Christians, that is the audience.

How can you assume any given "audience" is made up of truly saved people? Do you think everyone on this forum is saved just because they claim they are or think they are? Paul couldn't see into their hearts. So Paul did what any preacher does, he preaches a message that can be heard by all....whether saved or still seeking. He preaches to those who may assume they are Christians, but are still trusting in their obedience to the law.

Gal. 4:19-21 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you, I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you. Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?​

Notice here he says IF you are circumcised then the result will be you fall from grace. They were in grace but if they choose to go back to the law then they fall.
5:2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.NKJV

Paul actually says Christ will profit them nothing. He will profit them nothing because the grace of God which has appeared to all men has not been accessed by Faith.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Notice what Paul writes there in Titus. The grace of God...hath appeared to all men. It bringeth salvation only to those with Faith. A person falls from grace for two reasons....either they never accessed it by faith, or they have simply fallen out of favor with God. It isn't the latter because Paul adds they have not obeyed the Truth...which is the Gospel.

What is the truth that Paul is talking about? I suggest it's that circumcision has no place in the gospel based on the context. If they receive circumcision, then they are not obeying the truth.
Gal. 2:3 Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. 4 And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage), 5 to whom we did not yield submission even for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.
They were running well because they received the gospel without circumcision but men came in and distorted the truth.

I don't think that's the case because it isn't circumcision that brings men into bondage, but the Law. And it's the truth of the Gospel that delivers man from the law.

Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.​

 

[glorydaz]

This question?

"Which commandment would condemn those who have been saved by Grace through faith?"

Duh . . .

Answer is: The moral commandments are holy and good and reveal the will and purposes of God.

None of them condemn. Failure of men to keep them, bring sin and condemnation into the world.

Jesus Christ incarnated under the Law. Did any iota of the Law condemn Him? No.

Why? Because He was holy and lived according to the Law. Jesus was never condemned under the Law, because HE NEVER BROKE THE LAW.

Being saved by HIS grace, apart from our failure to keep the Law for our salvation . . does not give any man the right or license to thereafter break the Law just because Christ shed His blood to justify sinners.

Such an attitude is to spit with disrespect and unbelief, on the cross work of Jesus Christ.

Antinomianism is lawlessness and your MAD arguments are Antinomian.

Nice try....well, sort of. Don't slip and slide away from my question. Which commandment could you break that would cause you to lose your salvation?

 

[Nang]

Nice try....well, sort of. Don't slip and slide away from my question. Which commandment could you break that would cause you to lose your salvation?

My salvation is eternally secure, due to the righteousness of Jesus Christ, who sinlessly kept all the demands of the moral Law on my behalf.

Does this mean now, that I can with license, steal or commit adultery, or worship idols, etc., without care or conscience?

No. I claim Romans 8:1 as basis of my justification, but I also live a sanctified life, according to the spirit of God's moral Law. Romans 7:6, 8:2-4

 

[glorydaz]

This is a false conclusion to my argument. I hate to use the term "straw man," (I do not think it was your intention to do) but it is. However, allow me to address the quote and its subsequent conclusions/arguments.

Christ bore the weight of sin, right? He bore the punishment. But did He pay for all sin? No. He did not. This is a simple logical conclusion.

Why does hell exist? As punishment for sin. If Christ bore the punishment of all sin, hell would not exist. Who goes to hell? People who don't have faith in Christ (typical answer). Is that not a sin? If so, Christ paid for that, no?

See the paradox?

People must work toward salvation. This does not do away with faith. Faith is necessary. But works come after faith, in order to sustain it. James says faith without works is dead. And other apostles agree with him (despite people claiming the contrary). (2 Cor 5:10, Rom 2:6, 11:22, and all of James).


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Nope. That's simply a bunch of double talk. Logic...the wisdom of men.

1 Corinthians 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.​

Christ died for all sin. BUT, we have been told there is one unforgivable sin, correct? That is unbelief, and you'll see the proof right here.

John 16:8-9KJV
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me;​

I honestly don't know how much clearer it can be.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.​

 

[turbosixx]

How can you assume any given "audience" is made up of truly saved people? Do you think everyone on this forum is saved just because they claim they are or think they are? Paul couldn't see into their hearts. So Paul did what any preacher does, he preaches a message that can be heard by all....whether saved or still seeking. He preaches to those who may assume they are Christians, but are still trusting in their obedience to the law.

Gal. 4:19-21 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you, I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you. Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?​

Paul actually says Christ will profit them nothing. He will profit them nothing because the grace of God which has appeared to all men has not been accessed by Faith.



Notice what Paul writes there in Titus. The grace of God...hath appeared to all men. It bringeth salvation only to those with Faith. A person falls from grace for two reasons....either they never accessed it by faith, or they have simply fallen out of favor with God. It isn't the latter because Paul adds they have not obeyed the Truth...which is the Gospel.






I don't think that's the case because it isn't circumcision that brings men into bondage, but the Law. And it's the truth of the Gospel that delivers man from the law.

Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.​

I'm obviously not making my point very well. Thanks for your comments.

 

[glorydaz]

My salvation is eternally secure, due to the righteousness of Jesus Christ, who sinlessly kept all the demands of the moral Law on my behalf.

Does this mean now, that I can with license, steal or commit adultery, or worship idols, etc., without care or conscience?

No. I claim Romans 8:1 as basis of my justification, but I also live a sanctified life, according to the spirit of God's moral Law. Romans 7:6, 8:2-4

Nang, your fancy words are just sounding brass. This lie of having a license of sin is really beneath even you. One would think!

Which commandment could you break that would cause you to lose your salvation?

 

[Nang]

Christ died for all sin. BUT, we have been told there is one unforgivable sin, correct?

So which is it? Make up your mind . . .

Are all sins of all men paid for, or are there exceptions and souls whose sins will never be forgiven?

 

[Nang]

Nang, your fancy words are just sounding brass. This lie of having a license of sin is really beneath even you. One would think!

Which commandment could you break that would cause you to lose your salvation?

Which commandment of God do you have license to break?

 

[glorydaz]

I'm obviously not making my point very well. Thanks for your comments.

Actually, you made it quite well. I just don't believe that's what Paul is talking about. It isn't circumcision, but the law, itself, that keeps men under bondage. The law is wonderful for the purpose it was given, but when men attempt to be justified by the keeping of it, they find themselves under it's bondage. It can be any part of the law...eating and drinking or anything else.

 

[God's Truth]

I see you aren't showing me the Lord's commandments....are you confusing them with the instructions Paul gives to the churches? I think you are.

I also think you're overlooking the obedience of faith....obeying the Gospel is believing unto righteousness and salvation. You can add all kinds of rules and regulations to that, but you're in error to claim they are necessary for salvation or eternal life.

Paul is explaining the Lord's teachings.

Jesus speaks about works when he walked the earth.

Paul is expounding on what the Lord says about works.

On the Sabbath day, the law said that no one could work, not to even lift objects. Do you see the correlation from Sabbath day no works to no works for being saved?

Jesus is our Sabbath rest, we are saved by faith, and not of by works.

We are saved by Jesus' blood making us clean and not by our doing the ceremonial works.


A NO WORK rule was in place for the Sabbath day. Faith and NO WORKS save us; however, Jesus says it is UNLAWFUL to do evil on the NO WORK day of the Sabbath, and Jesus said it was LAWFUL to do good on the NO WORK day of the Sabbath, see Luke 6:9.

That PROVES that we STILL HAVE TO OBEY JESUS AND DO RIGHT AND ABSTAIN FROM EVIL.

Madists and faith alone teachers need to take notice.

 

[glorydaz]

Which commandment of God do you have license to break?

I'll ask again.

Which commandment could your break that would cause you to lose your salvation?



Come on, Nang. You talk a good game, but when you are called on something you fold like a half cooked noodle.

 

[Danoh]

Galatians was written to members of the Body of Christ.

His point is that they had fallen from the understanding of grace and who they were in Christ that he had left them with.

It is this that he now finds himself having to travail in birth AGAIN that said understanding might be formed in them again.

Galatians 1:2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia: 1:3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: 1:5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Galatians 4:8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain. 4:12 Brethren, I beseech you, be as I am; for I am as ye are: ye have not injured me at all.

4:17 They zealously affect you, but not well; yea, they would exclude you, that ye might affect them. 4:18 But it is good to be zealously affected always in a good thing, and not only when I am present with you. 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you, 4:20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you. 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

And so on...