Does Calvinism Make God Unjust?

[Rosenritter]

Revelation 20:15 "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." You cannot get around that truth.

What happens when you throw someone into a lake of fire?

a) If they were already dead, they are still dead. And they burn up.
b) If they were not dead, they die pretty quickly. And they burn up.

Have you read the book or seen the movie, "The Lord of the Rings?" What happened when Gollum was hurled into a lake of fire?

Have you read a book called Daniel? This guy Daniel had some friends, whom had some enemies. They convinced the king to throw them into a furnace of fire. But God protected Daniel's friends, but didn't protect the guards that threw them into the fire. What happened to the guards that did not have special divine protection?

I'm impatient, so I'll post the context:

Daniel 3:19-22 KJV
(19) Then was Nebuchadnezzar full of fury, and the form of his visage was changed against Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego: therefore he spake, and commanded that they should heat the furnace one seven times more than it was wont to be heated.
(20) And he commanded the most mighty men that were in his army to bind Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, and to cast them into the burning fiery furnace.
(21) Then these men were bound in their coats, their hosen, and their hats, and their other garments, and were cast into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
(22) Therefore because the king's commandment was urgent, and the furnace exceeding hot, the flame of the fire slew those men that took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.

Do you figure that a lake of fire is more or less hot than the king's furnace? Fire that hot kills people that even get close to it. It doesn't keep them alive forever in some sort of abject misery or depression.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Your answer is confusing. Are you implying that annihilation is a temporary punishment, an eternal reward, or both temporary and a reward?

By the way, I can read your posts so much better now. I appreciate the straight font.

If one dies without being in the Body of Christ, they will be judged before God by their works. Then, they will be cast into the Lake of Fire, where they will suffer throughout eternity.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

What happens when you throw someone into a lake of fire?

a) If they were already dead, they are still dead. And they burn up.
b) If they were not dead, they die pretty quickly. And they burn up.

Have you read the book or seen the movie, "The Lord of the Rings?" What happened when Gollum was hurled into a lake of fire?

"The Lord of the Rings." is a fairy-tale. The Lake of Fire will contain Satan, the beast, the false prophet, and the unbelievers. Your SOUL never dies. cannot die. It goes on forever, either in Heaven with God or in the Lake of Fire.

 

[Rosenritter]

God is justified in all that He does. He created a place called "The Lake of Fire." It's not a metaphor, an analogy or a symbol. It's a real place that exists. There is nobody residing there until after the judgment. Satan, the False Prophet and the Beast will be cast into the "Lake of Fire" as well as, the unsaved. They will all spend eternity in that place of torment and anguish.

If it is a real place that exists right now, then where is it? It's not mentioned as existing until Jesus Christ returns to earth, and seems as if it's a real thing on earth that people can see with their own eyes. I really don't know why you would assume that.

Also, where did you get the idea that the damned have an "eternity" to spend? Is it not written, that eternal life is the gift of God, but the wages of sin is death? And in another place that God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that whomsoever believes in him might not perish, but have eternal life?

 

[Rosenritter]

"The Lord of the Rings." is a fairy-tale. The Lake of Fire will contain Satan, the beast, the false prophet, and the unbelievers. Your SOUL never dies. cannot die. It goes on forever, either in Heaven with God or in the Lake of Fire.

Ezekiel 18:4 KJV
(4) Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Is Ezekiel a fairy tale? Where did you get the idea that your soul never dies?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

If a physical body were dropped into a fire, like when one is cremated after death, the physical remains turn into ash. However, the Soul cannot be burned into ash, it lives on in eternity.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Ezekiel 18:4 KJV
(4) Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Is Ezekiel a fairy tale? Where did you get the idea that your soul never dies?

Die in the "Spiritual" sense of the word, not the physical. Those who are not saved and part of the Body of Christ are "Spiritually alive." Those that are not part of the Body of Christ are considered "Spiritually Dead." Sounds like you're looking for "loopholes?"

 

[Rosenritter]

If one dies without being in the Body of Christ, they will be judged before God by their works. Then, they will be cast into the Lake of Fire, where they will suffer throughout eternity.

You didn't answer my question. I'll repeat it for you:

Are you implying that annihilation is a temporarypunishment, an eternal reward, or both temporary and a reward?

And now I have a new question for you. Did you just say that those who died without knowing the gospel or love of Christ will be given a "fair trial" and then made to suffer for eternity? "You'll have a fair trial and then be hanged" as the saying goes? That opens up a whole new can of worms:

Are you a closet Calvinist? That is, do you believe that God will mind-control those who are raised to prevent any from coming to repentance? I seem to remember Jesus saying that it would be "more tolerable in the day of judgment" for some than for others.

Matthew 12:41 KJV
(41) The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

Matthew 11:22-24 KJV
(22) But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
(23) And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
(24) But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.



Are you suggesting that there are "tolerable" degrees of "suffering throughout eternity?"

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

The body dies but the soul lives on.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

You didn't answer my question. I'll repeat it for you:

Are you implying that annihilation is a temporarypunishment, an eternal reward, or both temporary and a reward?

And now I have a new question for you. Did you just say that those who died without knowing the gospel or love of Christ will be given a "fair trial" and then made to suffer for eternity? "You'll have a fair trial and then be hanged" as the saying goes? That opens up a whole new can of worms:

Are you a closet Calvinist? That is, do you believe that God will mind-control those who are raised to prevent any from coming to repentance? I seem to remember Jesus saying that it would be "more tolerable in the day of judgment" for some than for others.

Matthew 12:41 KJV
(41) The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

Matthew 11:22-24 KJV
(22) But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
(23) And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
(24) But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.



Are you suggesting that there are "tolerable" degrees of "suffering throughout eternity?"

Spiritual Annihilation doesn't exist, at all.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

The logical extension of your argument would apply to babies, those who die as children also.

Why not acquire some knowledge about what I actually believe? Per the WCF...

• . Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit, (Luke 18:15-16, Acts 2:38-39, John 3:3, 5, 1 John 5:12, Rom. 8:9) who worketh when, and where, and how He pleaseth: (John 3:8) so also are all other elect persons who are uncapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word (1 John 5:12, Acts 4:12).

As one commentator on this section of the WCF writes:

We can assert that there are elect infants who die in infancy. We don't know how many or how few. We can also assert that believers have special warrant to hope that their infants who die in infancy are such (Luke 18:15,16, II Sam. 12:23, Acts 2:38,39, Ezek. 16:20,21). Beyond this we may not go. We may legitimately hope, but we may not demand.

Outside of Reformed circles, there are Calvinists, especially those using the Spurgeon revision to the LBCF, that will say that all infants that die are on their way to heaven.

Eh, you're on a predominantly open theism board and are regarded as a heretic yourself by plenty...

As to labeling one "a heretic" that is a matter for the church to decide after a trial and a conviction. When the church or a church convocation has done so the definition of heresy is usually along the lines of gross and dangerous errors voluntarily held (Titus 3:11), and factiously maintained (<—important!) by some person or persons within the visible church (acts 20:30), in opposition to some chief or substantial truths grounded upon and drawn from the Holy Scripture.

Heresy, as distinguished from mere heterodoxy, implies a palpable and decided difference in degree both with respect to the magnitude and prominence of the error, and the cogency of the evidence by which its erroneous character can be established.

This why the orthodox Christian believer may rightly declare open theism as heresy, for the church has so stated. It is but an included view of Socianism, declared heresy in in the 16th century. As I have often noted one wrong view leads to many others. Socinus also denied the triunity of God, the deity of Christ, and a substitutionary atonement, among other essentials of the faith. This theological tradition was later manifest as Unitarianism. On God’s omniscience Socinus reasoned, “Since, then, there is not reason, no passage of Scripture, from which it can be clearly gathered that God knew all things which happened before they happened, we must conclude that we are by no means to assent such a foreknowledge of God….” Open theists should be declaring Socinus the father of open theism! His view also substantiates my claim that there is nothing new under the sun, despite the open theist's frequent claim of a new view of God.

- Reference: Praelectionis Theologicae 11 (1627); 38, as quoted by Francis Turretin, Institutes of Elenctic Theology (reprint; Phillipsburg, NJ.: Presbyterian and Reformed, 1992)1:208 quoted by Richard L. Mayhue, “The Impossibility of God of the Possible.” The Master’s Seminary Journal 12, no. 2 (Fall, 2001). See also, Beyond the Bounds, Piper, et al. available as a free download here.
​

IMy nieces could be part of the 'reprobate' under your belief system and you'd gladly bring these burning coals on their heads and they wouldn't be able to do anything as they weren't decreed part of the 'elect'.

They may be or the may not be reprobate. Who can know but God? Think God's thoughts after Him. This does not mean we are to assume our thoughts are univocally God's thoughts, going off and declaring we know all God's thoughts as God knows them. As I have advised you, share the Good News with them often, teach them, train them, and fervently pray for them that it be the will of God to bring them to the faith. If they have yet to profess the faith and are unregenerated elect, these analogical "coals of fire" of the Good News will shame and convict them, being but one of the many means by which God is glorified as they are brought into the Kingdom. If they are among the reprobate then these same "coals of fire" of the Good News will only serve to harden them further thereby giving manifest evidence of God's decision to leave them in their state of sin from birth, thereby glorifying God.

I get it, AB. Alas, you still do not. Sigh.

AMR

 

[Rosenritter]

If a physical body were dropped into a fire, like when one is cremated after death, the physical remains turn into ash. However, the Soul cannot be burned into ash, it lives on in eternity.

Prove that souls cannot be burned into ash. They can die, and be slain with the sword.

Psalms 22:20 KJV
(20) Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.

The biblical definition of "soul' is the living thing, the whole. Which can most certainly perish from death, disease, hunger, swords, spears, arrows, and the like. Men are souls. Cattle are souls too. So are sheep.

Numbers 31:28 KJV
(28) And levy a tribute unto the LORD of the men of war which went out to battle: one soul of five hundred, both of the persons, and of the beeves, and of the as-ses, and of the sheep:

 

[Rosenritter]

Spiritual Annihilation doesn't exist, at all.

Do you not feel a little bit uncomfortable that you are arguing from a sheer "denial" position devoid of scriptural backing, and aren't able to answer these questions with support from scripture?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Your Soul lives forever.
Saved: You spend eternity in Heaven with God.
Unsaved: You spend eternity in eternal damnation, torment, anguish, eternal fire, "The Lake of Fire."

 

[Rosenritter]

The body dies but the soul lives on.

God says you are wrong. There's this book called Revelation. Do you acknowledge it as inspired?

Revelation 16:3 KJV
(3) And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

 

[Rosenritter]

Your Soul lives forever.
Saved: You spend eternity in Heaven with God.
Unsaved: You spend eternity in eternal damnation, torment, anguish, eternal fire, "The Lake of Fire."

How does your argument style differ from the Calvinist now? Each and every time you are presented with scripture you ignore it and resort to recitation of the man-made traditional creed.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Do you not feel a little bit uncomfortable that you are arguing from a sheer "denial" position devoid of scriptural backing, and aren't able to answer these questions with support from scripture?

You didn't read the verses I gave you up top?

 

[Rosenritter]

Die in the "Spiritual" sense of the word, not the physical. Those who are not saved and part of the Body of Christ are "Spiritually alive." Those that are not part of the Body of Christ are considered "Spiritually Dead." Sounds like you're looking for "loopholes?"

And where does God define this "spiritual death" that you speak of? Are you sure you're not confusing a metaphor that alludes to actual death?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Revelation 20 :12
Revelation 20:19
Revelation 20:15

 

[Rosenritter]

You didn't read the verses I gave you up top?

I just see a lot of one-liners from you. And a lot of your ignoring of passages in response to your one-liners.