Does Calvinism Make God Unjust?

[Arthur Brain]

As long as you deny there is actually such a person as reprobate you will continue to struggle here. All are born sinners. None are born morally neutral and become sinners when they sin. None born deserve universal mercy, for then the very word has changed. No one wants to live in a world where mercy is obligatorily extended to all malefactors. Think about it and it will come to you.

The logical extension of your argument would apply to babies, those who die as children also. I've spoke to plenty a Calvinist who believes that a 'reprobate' child would be lobbed into a fiery hell just as much as any adult if not chosen to be part of the 'elect', such is the nature of the 'beast' where it comes to such a theology. To be fair that isn't just Calvinism as some would believe that an unbaptized child would rot in the same way, such again is the nature of 'hell doctrine'. If none are born morally neutral then what marks out the 'elect' to begin with? Why are you picked when your neighbour isn't? Why are you shown mercy if you're actually no better than any person standing next to you? On the face of it that's just God playing dice. He could equally choose that man next to you and leave you to rot as a 'reprobate' correct? So aren't you as lucky as a lottery winner? Or is there something special about you to be spared the pains you believe will befall others?

Sure, I don't want to live in a world where a rapist is given the same sentence as someone who owes a parking fine, but in context there is no comparison here.

If you deny the doctrine of Adam's original sin and its consequences, you will also struggle with these matters. Such is the issue with holding to error upon error that will cascade into full-blown heterodoxy and even heresy.

Eh, you're on a predominantly open theism board and are regarded as a heretic yourself by plenty, a blasphemer by some so your measure of error is simply that of a man, a well educated one but still a man, no matter how learned in certain ways. Such an accusation on your part holds little merit with me. I'll have no truck with capriciousness or cruelty no matter how such can be couched in 'intellectualism'.

The promiscuous sharing of the Gospel brings shame upon the reprobate, hence the phrase, "heap coals upon their head", per the ancient Egyptian custom in which a person who wanted to show public contrition carried a pan of burning coals on his head. The coals represented the burning pain of his shame and guilt. When believers lovingly share the Good News with all persons, it should bring shame to some people for their hate and animosity of God. Those that truly feel this shame are among the elect. Those that do not are among the reprobate, for the same sun that melts the snow (unregenerated elect), hardens the clay (reprobate).

Understand it now?

AMR

I understood exactly what you said to begin with and in context. How you think it's any the less sickening is rather bemusing though. My nieces could be part of the 'reprobate' under your belief system and you'd gladly bring these burning coals on their heads and they wouldn't be able to do anything as they weren't decreed part of the 'elect'.

You have any idea how putrid such a notion is to anyone who loves their family etc?

Do YOU get it now?

 

[musterion]

A while back I wrestled with the idea of eternal damnation versus annihilation. However, through looking at what the Bible has to say about the subject, arrived at only one conclusion, "Eternal damnation" is the ONLY conclusion. It would feel quite assuring if "annihilation" were true, however, it has no validity in the Bible. Therefore, we must be ever vigilant to share the Gospel with others. Their destination is too horrible to contemplate.

There's a small segment within dispensationalism (LADs, or Late Acts Disps, or Acts 28) who believe the opposite: universal salvation. I'd like to believe it -- who wouldn't? -- but I just don't see it in the Bible. No idea if they're the only disps that believe in U.S. but they're the only ones I know of.

 

[Arthur Brain]

At least he and I share that in common.

I know you do. I think however, that were you to be faced with some unknown human being in abject agony you'd feel compassion for them and want to stop their pain right?

 

[Arthur Brain]

So far as Universalism goes, Christ paid the price for ALL the sins of humanity, however, not ALL will enter eternal life.

Is unbelief a sin?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Although I can't prove it Scripturally, I don't believe that a child below a certain age will be sent into eternal damnation. In order to be saved, one must hear the Gospel and place their faith in Christ as their Savior. A baby cannot do this. The character of God is merciful and I don't believe any baby that dies will ever go into eternal damnation.

 

[Arthur Brain]

There's a small segment within dispensationalism (LADs, or Late Acts Disps, or Acts 28) who believe the opposite: universal salvation. I'd like to believe it -- who wouldn't? -- but I just don't see it in the Bible. No idea if they're the only disps that believe in U.S. but they're the only ones I know of.

Well, what about the verses that 'popsthebuilder' recently posted? There's plenty to suggest that an omnipotent God can restore every last vestige of His own apparent creation. In fact any doctrine that suggests otherwise actually limits what God is capable of doesn't it?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Is unbelief a sin?

If one hears the Gospel and rejects it until their final breath, they will be judged by God for their works and be cast into the Lake of Fire. Read the few last chapters of Revelation.

 

[musterion]

Well, what about the verses that 'popsthebuilder' recently posted? There's plenty to suggest that an omnipotent God can restore every last vestige of His own apparent creation. In fact any doctrine that suggests otherwise actually limits what God is capable of doesn't it?

I have nothing to discuss with you on these matters.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Although I can't prove it Scripturally, I don't believe that a child below a certain age will be sent into eternal damnation. In order to be saved, one must hear the Gospel and place their faith in Christ as their Savior. A baby cannot do this. The character of God is merciful and I don't believe any baby that dies will ever go into eternal damnation.

What's 'merciful' about keeping people, babies or otherwise in a state of perpetual suffering? Any despot who's ever ruled and committed the most barbaric of atrocities in the history of this planet couldn't hold a candle to that GM...

 

[Arthur Brain]

I have nothing to discuss with you on these matters.

Apart from that apparently...

lain:

 

[Arthur Brain]

If one hears the Gospel and rejects it until their final breath, they will be judged by God for their works and be cast into the Lake of Fire. Read the few last chapters of Revelation.

And just how much metaphor and symbolism is that particular chapter steeped in though GM? Death itself is cast into the lake along with Hades. Do you think it's literal fire?

 

[Arthur Brain]

If one hears the Gospel and rejects it until their final breath, they will be judged by God for their works and be cast into the Lake of Fire. Read the few last chapters of Revelation.

I know you answered this already but not actually the question. Is unbelief a sin?

 

[popsthebuilder]

If you have studied as recommended you would not be able to claim universalism and annihilationism have any Scriptural warrant. Carry on as you wish. I am not going to address these two topics any further with you.

AMR

I thought we had already established that?

Regardless, I'm not talking about universalism.

As far as I'm concerned; there is no reason to inquire about your view or respond to you seriously until you at least acknowledge your biases...to yourself, of course. I do hope we can resume profitable conversation some where down the line... GOD permitting... and willing.

Peace freind

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[popsthebuilder]

Just throwing this out there;

I wouldn't personally suggest that any look to rationalizations and explanations brought forth by others for the utter truth. Help in understanding...definitely, but most certainly not the last Word.

If you are a confessed believer...as in confessed to GOD, not man, then have faith that GOD guides all the faithful to what is right, these truths are generally undeniable. Truth isn't just known in spiritual cases but it is literally felt. The first step is to relinquish pride and greed, allowing room for the Holy Spirit, the selfless conscience, to shed light on the truths within, or rather, the deceit.

That's enough for now I suppose... No doubt will be called a heretic as it is.


Humbly, peace

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[popsthebuilder]

I would rather a man not claim to embrace TULIP while also embracing annihilationism and universalism. Such a man embracing these two errors is quite double-minded and confused by chasing every shiny object that comes their way.

AMR

What's shiny that I chase?

Back your haughty words or desist in making them.

Since you've already chosen not to do the former, I would hope you would be good enough to stop with the latter.

You do not know what I take as doctrine and I would appreciate it if you would stop pretending like you do.

If you won't conversate with me then please; don't spread things about me.. I've said nothing about you except for what you had displayed on your own. I understand you taking offence, but is that reason to continue in your own offence? Fight fire with fire? Even if so; we have established that we had stopped arguing, so that, necessarily means that it graduates to degrading remarks nearing back biting?

Again... I'm done... Evidently you are not... Please continue until you see fit.

Peace

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[Grosnick Marowbe]

I know you answered this already but not actually the question. Is unbelief a sin?

Unbelief, regarding what? I don't believe Hillary will make a good President. Is that a sin or just unbelief?

 

[Arthur Brain]

Unbelief, regarding what? I don't believe Hillary will make a good President. Is that a sin or just unbelief?

Did I really need to spell it out? Unbelief or a lack of belief in God. Atheism, agnosticism, belief in another 'God' aka Allah or whatever. It's not like you to be obtuse GM.

 

[patrick jane]

Did I really need to spell it out? Unbelief or a lack of belief in God. Atheism, agnosticism, belief in another 'God' aka Allah or whatever. It's not like you to be obtuse GM.

Reading the books of Romans through Philemon is the most important thing anyone can do if seeking salvation. When you read Ephesians for instance, (which may take an hour tops), you will believe and KNOW that you are saved and sealed by the Holy Spirit of God. It may take a week to read those books but it's well worth it. I can't believe that anybody that reads it seriously would still not believe in Jesus Christ as Savior -

 

[Nang]

Did I really need to spell it out? Unbelief or a lack of belief in God. Atheism, agnosticism, belief in another 'God' aka Allah or whatever. It's not like you to be obtuse GM.

Sin is not believing God's words . . .

 

[patrick jane]

Well, what about the verses that 'popsthebuilder' recently posted? There's plenty to suggest that an omnipotent God can restore every last vestige of His own apparent creation. In fact any doctrine that suggests otherwise actually limits what God is capable of doesn't it?

Yes