Does Calvinism Make God Unjust?

[Rosenritter]

But rosenritter, Jesus doesn't say to know Christ is to truly know God. He says.

To know YOU the only true God and Jesus Christ whom YOU have sent

But you are right, to know Christ is to know God. Because God was in Jesus and he was seen fully through him because Jesus had the full strength of his spirit. It says in Hebrews 1 that Jesus was in the express image of God, meaning he isn't God but is in the image of God's person!

And how can it be blasphemy not to believe that Jesus is God? It doesn't say anywhere in the Bible that I have to believe that, but that I have to believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God, and I do!

Who is Alpha and Omega?

Revelation 21:6-7 KJV
(6) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
(7) He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

 

[Rosenritter]

The Bible gives the green light for killing heretics. It's splashed through the entire whole of the Bible, and why Christianity practiced it up until the end of the Late Ages. Jesus never said a single thing about it either, nor the apostles- even though killing heretics was pretty routine.

Basically you are appealing to modern bias, and nothing more. When you actually want to go to history and the scriptures, let us know :wave:

Are you possessed? Insane? Or just plain wicked?

Luke 6:27 KJV
(27) But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,

Matthew 26:52 KJV
(52) Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

John 18:36 KJV
(36) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

I am baffled at the near blasphemous idiocy of your claim.

Mark 9:38-41 KJV
(38) And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
(39) But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
(40) For he that is not against us is on our part.
(41) For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.

I don't see Jesus telling his disciples to kill the other man as a heretic.

Matthew 13:28-30 KJV
(28) He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
(29) But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
(30) Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

I don't see Jesus telling the servants to separate the wheat from the tares until the harvest. And besides that, the servants in this parable are the holy angels. You aren't an angel. And you sure aren't acting like wheat.

 

[beloved57]

And when the Jews wanted to stone him for as they saw it was making himself God, he corrected them by saying doesn't it say in your law that ye are god's to whom the spirit of God has come up on, but now say I blaspheme, because I say I am the son of God

Jesus doesn't plainly tell them that he is God, he plainly tells then that he is the son of God!

Jesus didn't say he was God, but the son of God.

It doesn't say believe that I am, but believe that I am he meaning believing that he is the son of the living God, that he is the Christ.

After he says that, he says this

Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.

Where does Jesus tell them he is God? He doesn't, he tells then that he is the son of God.

Here's verse 26 of John, 8

I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him

It's clear in this verse that Jesus was sent, he was sent by God and that he speaks those things that God gives him to speak. Because God is his God.

Verse 28

When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. And he that sent meis with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. As he spake these words, many believed on him

Here is the scripture word for word regarding the pharasees wanting to stone Jesus in John 10

John 10

The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

They will die in their sins not because they don't believe that he is God, but because they don't believe in Jesus and that he is the son of God and because of the hardness of their hearts he can't save them!

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that we have to believe that Jesus is God, but we are to believe that Jesus is the son of God, and that he is the Christ!

Is there a scripture that says Jesus is not God ?

 

[Rosenritter]

And when the Jews wanted to stone him for as they saw it was making himself God, he corrected them by saying doesn't it say in your law that ye are god's to whom the spirit of God has come up on, but now say I blaspheme, because I say I am the son of God

Jesus doesn't plainly tell them that he is God, he plainly tells then that he is the son of God!

Jesus didn't say he was God, but the son of God.

It doesn't say believe that I am, but believe that I am he meaning believing that he is the son of the living God, that he is the Christ.

After he says that, he says this

Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.

Where does Jesus tell them he is God? He doesn't, he tells then that he is the son of God.

Here's verse 26 of John, 8

I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him

It's clear in this verse that Jesus was sent, he was sent by God and that he speaks those things that God gives him to speak. Because God is his God.

Verse 28

When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. And he that sent meis with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. As he spake these words, many believed on him

Here is the scripture word for word regarding the pharasees wanting to stone Jesus in John 10

John 10

The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

They will die in their sins not because they don't believe that he is God, but because they don't believe in Jesus and that he is the son of God and because of the hardness of their hearts he can't save them!

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that we have to believe that Jesus is God, but we are to believe that Jesus is the son of God, and that he is the Christ!

Marhig, the very passages you just quoted to supposedly say that Jesus wasn't God actually demonstrate that he is our very God. If you would just slow down and read them through...

Do you know what it means to be the "Son of God?" Paul tells us what the term means. Without beginning or end of days, he says, among a few other descriptions that leave no other options.

Did you read the Psalm that Jesus was quoting when he said, "Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?" As he applied it to them, the context defines Jesus as the LORD God who will judge them (the Pharisees) in the end.

I can walk you through them if you promise to answer questions in short form as we go through. Or I could do the multiple choice thing. I believe you are honest enough to stick by your given answers, the problem is that you seem to avoid answering when it starts to seem sticky...

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

The Bible gives the green light for killing heretics. It's splashed through the entire whole of the Bible,

If what you say is so, then, offer up some Scripture verses that prove your point? Ah, come on, give it a shot? Even if it's just one vague reference? I'll wager you can't find even one. you're just trying to be a "low-level Provocateur."

 

[Rosenritter]

Is there a scripture that says Jesus is not God ?

You would expect that Jesus would say something like that, given the amount of times he indirectly made himself God, given that he was worshiped and called the Lord God, and that he calls himself by the names of God of which it is said that God will not give that glory to another...

 

[Crucible]

Your "Wit" is in the non-existent area and your ability to answer a simple question is not to be found within the confines of this dimension. :chuckle:

It's a question that I don't need to answer, because if you don't know it than you shouldn't report to have ever opened a Bible in your life

There is no verse that says 'heretics will be put to death' and there doesn't need to be one because that is what happens from Genesis to Revelation you imbecile :doh:

But those as yourself are so absurd that you'll hinge on that to deny it.

 

[Crucible]

The modern man deeming their ancestors wicked because they had to do things in a world ruled by religion that the vain, new age of society doesn't.

The modern man- who pays taxes which support abortion and the death penalty, is indifferent about the homeless, and thinks their mere moral views stack up more than knee high to an ant- is going to sit there and act self-righteous..

..as long as your life is good, right?

Once you see how the 3rd World is, it's plain to see how people are in this culture. I'll put it this way- when a terrorist attack happens, it doesn't bother me one bit because this culture is being judged and it's so called Christians within it are too blind to acknowledge it.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

The modern man deeming their ancestors wicked because they had to do things in a world ruled by religion that the vain, new age of society doesn't.

The modern man- who pays taxes which support abortion and the death penalty, is indifferent about the homeless, and thinks their mere moral views stack up more than knee high to an ant- is going to sit there and act self-righteous..

..as long as your life is good, right?

Once you see how the 3rd World is, it's plain to see how people are in this culture. I'll put it this way- when a terrorist attack happens, it doesn't bother me one bit because this culture is being judged and it's so called Christians within it are too blind to acknowledge it.

:chuckle:

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

It's a question that I don't need to answer, because if you don't know it than you shouldn't report to have ever opened a Bible in your life

There is no verse that says 'heretics will be put to death' and there doesn't need to be one because that is what happens from Genesis to Revelation you imbecile :doh:

But those as yourself are so absurd that you'll hinge on that to deny it.

:chuckle:

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Sigh, I've already told you, He most certainly told them He was God when He called Himself the name of God given to Moses, you may not like that, but its fact.

Indeed.

View attachment 24829

AMR

 

[marhig]

Marhig, the very passages you just quoted to supposedly say that Jesus wasn't God actually demonstrate that he is our very God. If you would just slow down and read them through...

Do you know what it means to be the "Son of God?" Paul tells us what the term means. Without beginning or end of days, he says, among a few other descriptions that leave no other options.

Did you read the Psalm that Jesus was quoting when he said, "Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?" As he applied it to them, the context defines Jesus as the LORD God who will judge them (the Pharisees) in the end.

I can walk you through them if you promise to answer questions in short form as we go through. Or I could do the multiple choice thing. I believe you are honest enough to stick by your given answers, the problem is that you seem to avoid answering when it starts to seem sticky...

No, you don't have to do that, my beliefs are what they are because I truly in my heart believe that Jesus is the son of God and not God the son. There are other sons of God, but they are not God. Jesus is the Christ, the son of God begotten of the father and and that's all I need to know according to the Bible, as I have said the evidence is overwhelming to me that he's not God. I see that God was in Christ Jesus and that every word he spoke was from God. Not that he is God, I can write verse after verse to prove it too, but that's not getting us anywhere.

The thing I can't understand is how some judge others as heretics and not belonging God because they don't believe in the trinity or that Jesus is God. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that we are to do this to belong to God or to be saved. Yet people judge so harshly because of the trinity and I am still waiting to see one verse to say that I am to believe this way to belong God or to be saved? I can see venom in some of their posts, real hardness, yet i don't feel like that about anyone, my hope is for everyone to get to heaven.

Also, my husband reminded me this morning, that when Jesus asked his disciples who do you say that I am. Peter replied, "you are the Christ the son of the living God" no God the son, not that he was God. But the son of the living God and the Christ. And that's how I see Jesus. That's what God has revealed me. If it was supposed to be anything different than that, then God would have told Peter differently, but he didn't. And Jesus told Peter that this revelation came from his father in heaven.

And I believe him, I believe that Jesus is the Christ and the he's the son of the living God. And according to Jesus, that's all I need to believe!

 

[marhig]

:yawn:

Heretics were put to death by God's own command, and through all Judaic and Christian history, a refusal to repent from heresy meant the death penalty.

People today reduce it all down to love and passivity, which is why Christianity is slowly dying- whenever this happens, people swear that the End Time is near. It has been repeated many times over in history, and then the Spirit descends unto man and man picks back up the reins.

You all need serious history lessons lain:

Christianity is not all roses and butterflies- quite frankly, I get tired of hearing notions straight out of fantasy- it's easy to sit there and act like a saint when the definition of a saint is refusing to do what is necessary and condemning those who do

Ok, tell me where in the Bible that i am to believe in the trinity or that Jesus is God, And that if i don't I'm a heretic and should be put to death? Where is it in the scriptures?

 

[Lazy afternoon]

But rosenritter, Jesus doesn't say to know Christ is to truly know God. He says.

To know YOU the only true God and Jesus Christ whom YOU have sent

But you are right, to know Christ is to know God. Because God was in Jesus and he was seen fully through him because Jesus had the full strength of his spirit. It says in Hebrews 1 that Jesus was in the express image of God, meaning he isn't God but is in the image of God's person!

And how can it be blasphemy not to believe that Jesus is God? It doesn't say anywhere in the Bible that I have to believe that, but that I have to believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God, and I do!

Stay with that Marhig,

God is greater than Jesus Christ, there is no wrath in Jesus Christ.

LA

 

[popsthebuilder]

It's a question that I don't need to answer, because if you don't know it than you shouldn't report to have ever opened a Bible in your life

There is no verse that says 'heretics will be put to death' and there doesn't need to be one because that is what happens from Genesis to Revelation you imbecile :doh:

But those as yourself are so absurd that you'll hinge on that to deny it.

You seem to equate the erroneous actions of man with the will of GOD.



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[TulipBee]

No, but you are defending a man who killed many, Calvin was wrong to kill Michael Servetus. It wasn't good before God to kill the "heretic", and you haven't said it was the wrong thing to do either? It was a sin before the Almighty God and it was a wicked act. And Calvin was listening to Satan when he went about his murderous deeds plotting to have people put to death.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that we have believe in the trinity to belong to God, it's a false teaching!

Calvin didn't kill servetus. Your answers are in the Bible. God says about Himself: I'am He
Jesus says about Himself: I'am He

Jesus describes Himself with the same term that God used to describe Himself!

Isaiah 43:10-13 “You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD,“and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that (((I AM HE.))) Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me. I, I am the LORD, 11 and besides me there is no savior. I declared and saved and proclaimed, 12 when there was no strange god among you; and you are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “AND I AM GOD. Also henceforth (((I AM HE)) 13 there is none who can deliver from my hand; I work, and who can turn it back?”

John 8:23-24 23 He said to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that (((I AM HE))) you will die in your sins.”

 

[TulipBee]

John 8:23-24New International Version (NIV)

23*But he continued,*“You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.*24*I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that ---------------------> I am he <-----------------,*you will indeed DIE in your sins.”

 

[Clete]

Yet the Christ can still be the Alpha (first born) and the Omega( the final judge of all) without being considered the coeternal utter fullness of GOD and man.

The Holy Spirit that filled the Christ, Jesus was the first creation and all other creation was of that spirit which is GOD. GOD also appointed the Christ as the final judge and that same spirit is the Omega.

Is that nonsense or deemed heretical by the orthodox Christian?

Peace

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Isaiah tells us that God Himself created the universe. He did not use an agent and Jesus was NOT created, He is the Creator. To deny this is simply to deny the word of God and to worship the wrong Jesus. You don't get to make up your own religion and still call yourself a Christian. You might as well go join the Mormons or Jehova Witnesses.

 

[Clete]

Rev.chs 4 and 5 prove you wrong.

as does Heb.ch s 1 and 2.

You are reading something into the text which is not there.

LA

Saying it doesn't make it so, LA.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Isaiah tells us that God Himself created the universe. He did not use an agent and Jesus was NOT created, He is the Creator. To deny this is simply to deny the word of God and to worship the wrong Jesus. You don't get to make up your own religion and still call yourself a Christian. You might as well go join the Mormons or Jehova Witnesses.

I'm sorry; what?

So to you the word begotten isn't synonymous with formed or created or at very least; not eternal in the fullness of the term?

To you, does the word begat really mean something other than to conceive, or form, or make, or create?

Your accusing tone isn't needed or helpful. Even if you perceive me to be your enemy, if you are what a Christian is then you are to guide without condemnation. Rebuke and chastise isn't synonymous with assume and accuse from your own opinion.

I have to work.

Peace



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