Does Calvinism limit God?

[Z Man]

1Way, read and understand:

We are too much disposed to think of the eternal God as if He were just such a being as we are. Looking too exclusively upon our free agency and accountability, we lose sight of God's sovereignty and omniscience. Confining our observations only to the brief period which limits our existence on earth, we view Him as a mere contemporary with ourselves whose only jurisdiction is to reward us if we do well, to note our improper conduct if we act amiss, and to bring us into judgment hereafter. It does not enter into our conceptions that He existed from all eternity and, as our Creator, has supreme ownership of us -- that He was under no obligation to create us nor to destine us for one end rather than another. Our pride and self-love cause us to rebel at the declaration that God, in making and in disposing of us, consults His sovereign pleasure and His glory rather then our interests. And we are disposed to reply against God. As if He had not, in the beginning, in reference to us, the same right and the same power that the potter has out of clay to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor (Rom. 9:21).

- Patrick Hues Mell

 

[godrulz]

Open Theism is significantly different from the heresy of Process Theology. The few similarities do not compare with the differences.

Ephesians 1:11 is about the corporate, not individual, election of those who would believe. All believers will become part of the Church, which is chosen to be the people of God. God does not meticulously control the individual free moral choices of moral agents in regards to eternal destiny. This would be contrary to His creation mandate, moral law, and character. It would also negate human responsibility/accountability for virtue or vice.

It is not a foregone conclusion that Calvinism is the same as Biblical Christianity. It is a problematic theological system (TULIP) and should not be assumed to be true in every aspect.

 

[smaller]

1Way: God can control every and any event if He wanted to, the open view does not contradict God’s abilities.

1Way: the everlasting God of the bible could NOT make Himself to have never existed

It would appear that you have found a limit to EVERY and ANY eh? He Himself is EXCLUDED FROM CONTROLLING Himself???

Perhaps you can SHOW GOD to us, to you know, PROVE that He exists, since you claim He cannot make Himself as if He never existed.

It may appear to me that this later position may be some of His Finest Work....

And your guesswork on God's RIGHTEOUS acts of MURDER, ADULTERY, LYING, AND CREATION OF EVIL are rather NOVEL to say the least.

Kinda funny to see your own stuff in ALL it's blatant contradictions eh 1Way????

You are pretty entertaining though.

 

[godrulz]

The uncreated Creator God cannot make himself to not exist. He is infinite and indestructible. It is illogical to say that God exists, but could then at some point go back and make it like He never existed. He is self-existent and cannot make Himself not exist at any point. This is not a limitation on God, but a logical absurdity or contradiction (based on the nature and attributes of the eternal God).

 

[1Way]

Smaller – You said

1Way: God can control every and any event if He wanted to, the open view does not contradict God’s abilities.

1Way: the everlasting God of the bible could NOT make Himself to have never existed

It would appear that you have found a limit to EVERY and ANY eh? He Himself is EXCLUDED FROM CONTROLLING Himself???

No smaller, by every and any event, I do not infer the impossible. If something can not be done, then such an event could not occur, thus the impossible represents a non-event, not an event. Now, sorry if I was typing that too fast for you to grasp it all, after all, those are two very different ideas, and boy are they complicated. So here’s a suggestion to help you understand them. Sit down with a dictionary or two, and maybe some encyclopedias, and also after doing some preliminary studies, round up some 6, 8, or 10 year olds for technical assistance, and then just immerse yourself for weeks on end as you try to understand these concepts until you can finally deal with then on a consistent basis without forgetting it all.

As for me, I’m not like you at all, I take a consistent objective non-subjective approach to life and reason and logic and God and truth, so try not to trip and stumble as you supposedly try to follow what I am saying.

You said

Perhaps you can SHOW GOD to us, to you know, PROVE that He exists, since you claim He cannot make Himself as if He never existed.

If anything exists, then an eternal creator exists, there is no other option. Everything that we know about this world tells us that it is winding down and wearing out. If the world lasts long enough, our sun will some day use up it’s available energy and burn out cold. Same with all available energy resources. Everytime you light a campfire with an armful of logs, you “know” that it will not burn for ever, it will only last a very predictable finite period of time. As one well known author once wrote, in the game of energy transfer, you can’t even break even. Point is that the world is not eternal, nor did it create itself, nonexistence precludes any such things from doing anything let alone create themselves from nothing.

So I offer you the most tested and verified scientific data available (the first and second laws of thermodynamics) as exceedingly good evidence that God exists and has existed from eternity past. If you want more evidence like this, perhaps you should check out the center ring of the last battle royal where Bob Enyart does a fabulous job presenting scientific evidence for the claim that God exists.

But really, smaller, if you are a bible believer, surely you don’t wish to put in doubt the eternal nature of God, DO YOU?

I’m entertaining to you, ,,, you do this to see if you can get a rise out of me that you might find enjoyable. Here’s my rise smaller, you’re a willful fool, you would deny that God exists eternally in order to defend your smallish God that may never had existed. You see, just as godrulz said, if you say right now that God exists, then you could never say that He never existed, unless you’re a liar and unless you didn’t exist and we didn’t exist and nothing existed because if God never existed, then nothing would ever exist, there would be nothing and no one, period. But I set this problem before you like months ago, and you still are trapped in it’s foolish snares.

 

[1Way]

5 solos – I can read commentaries, I have them even on electronic format so I don’t need you to post them in place of your responses. I already gave you God’s word for why you are wrong and I did so using your own passage. Are you willing to be so blind, or does it at least somewhat bother you that you contradict the entire context of the passage you ripped?

We have God and His word in one hand,

and you have famous men who created longstanding traditions on the other.

Folks like; Edwards, Calvin, Bishop Ambrose, and the Greek philosophers, etc. Sorry chum, but I’m standing on God’s word even if I dare oppose hundreds of so called brilliant men who contradict and violate God’s word (and are not here to defend themselves while you remain).

 

[1Way]

Z – I understand that you just quoted me a very flaky and philosophical view. And that to the extent that the writer used God’s word to substantiate his views, he was 100% wrong. As I have been demonstrating to you for weeks now :radar: , the potter and the clay was first taught in the OT where God repents from doing what He had previously said/thought He would do based upon the yet future uncertain responses of mankind.

I accept Rom 9 exactly as God laid it all out from OT reference after OT and how chapter 9 fits in perfectly with the next chapters all teaching that God is able to and ultimately did cut off corporate Israel and started a new no national preference plan with the world. Now I know that 99.8 percent of the Christians out there, due most largely to their biblical illiteracy and indoctrination to the closed view, would say that when they read Rom. 9, it seems like God has to know everything and predestines individuals to heaven and so on just like the closed view Calvinists say. In response, I say that such is the power of false preconceptions and the constant reinforcement of a herd mentality. :dunce: But bless God for the minority who do right and risk the consequences and follow after God by His word despite what basically everyone else is doing.

I can’t wait to meet Noah. Building a ship for a transport medium (flooding and rain) that was not before realized other than normal waterways represents unprecedented faith and a willingness to go against the odds. That would be like in this day and age, you making a “space ship” and not having a propulsion drive unit, while all the neighbors could see what you are doing for like a hundred years! Talk about a faith that went against the stream.

I’m with Noah, I don’t care if you can find a 1,000 bible violators who you have adopted to conform your faith to, I will continue to care to hold you personally accountable before God by the righteous standard of His word. So please stop relying on others to defend yourself when all you have to do is open your bible with a willing heart and answer some very basic questions, like, am you being taught to directly contradict specific scripture teachings and then to replace that specifically voided meaning with nothing specific at all?

God’s word is not so hard to understand. But for you, you have rendered yourself dumber than a 10 year old because most any 10 year old (who has not already been brain washed by neoPlatonism) could at least get close to the meaning of one half of one single verse by also reading those 7 verses just before it! But you, with all your education and maturing intellect, you can not do that much. And now you offer this substitute, which does not approach to replace the meaning of Jonah 3.10b (not that it specifically tried to) nor the Potter and the clay as God clearly teaches it. (even though it tried to)

Be courageous like Calvin and Luther and oppose false doctrine in favor of the bible in spite of longstanding tradition.

Or, ,,,

not. The choice if freely yours.

 

[smaller]

Greetings 1Way

No smaller, by every and any event, I do not infer the impossible.

You seem to have difficulty with the concept that YOU DO NOT KNOW EVERYTHING, therefore you cannot say what is or is not possible.

If something can not be done, then such an event could not occur, thus the impossible represents a non-event, not an event.

IF you knew EVERYthing about EVERY form of logic, existence, dimensionality etc. then you could say what can or cannot be done. I am willing to conceed the position of KNOWING ALL THINGS to The Maker of ALL THINGS and say that I cannot KNOW unless I was GOD HIMSELF.

You on the other hand represent ONLY A PETTY LIMITed view. So in effect I am not commenting upon God, but upon YOU.

Now, sorry if I was typing that too fast for you to grasp it all, after all, those are two very different ideas, and boy are they complicated. So here’s a suggestion to help you understand them. Sit down with a dictionary or two, and maybe some encyclopedias, and also after doing some preliminary studies, round up some 6, 8, or 10 year olds for technical assistance, and then just immerse yourself for weeks on end as you try to understand these concepts until you can finally deal with then on a consistent basis without forgetting it all.

You are a severe waste of space as well 1say. Let's put it this way...any PERSON such as yourself that says THIS IS WHAT GOD IS and THIS IS WHAT GOD CAN AND CANNOT DO will instantly raise my eyebrow.

My second instant observation is for YOU TO SHOW ME THAT YOU KNOW ALL THINGS and are therefore equipped to make such determinations.

Being FAR SHORT on count two, and bringing certain DESTRUCTIVE "spirits" with your commentary such as the expression of God's BURNING PEOPLE ALIVE IN TORTURE FOREVER, I must say that you perhaps are A BIT OVER YOUR HEAD.

As for me, I’m not like you at all, I take a consistent objective non-subjective approach to life and reason and logic and God and truth, so try not to trip and stumble as you supposedly try to follow what I am saying.

My simple points will be repeated to show your ignorance. You do not know everything, therefore you cannot say what God can and cannot do. This seems to be a real stretch for you.

I readily conceed that I cannot say. I do think that overall God has expressed Himself as the Ultimate Good and Perfection. What that is though should remain without LIMITS or BOUNDRIES.

You say God is logical. I say we do not and cannot define GOD'S LOGIC. You say God's "particulars" are expressed as a (whatever) logical sequence. I say your logical sequences are missing a few pieces of information that I can easily see and your conclusions are then PATENTLY FALSE.

smaller

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by 1Way

Z – I understand that you just quoted me a very flaky and philosophical view. And that to the extent that the writer used God’s word to substantiate his views, he was 100% wrong. As I have been demonstrating to you for weeks now :radar: , the potter and the clay was first taught in the OT where God repents from doing what He had previously said/thought He would do based upon the yet future uncertain responses of mankind.

I accept Rom 9 exactly as God laid it all out from OT reference after OT and how chapter 9 fits in perfectly with the next chapters all teaching that God is able to and ultimately did cut off corporate Israel and started a new no national preference plan with the world. Now I know that 99.8 percent of the Christians out there, due most largely to their biblical illiteracy and indoctrination to the closed view, would say that when they read Rom. 9, it seems like God has to know everything and predestines individuals to heaven and so on just like the closed view Calvinists say. In response, I say that such is the power of false preconceptions and the constant reinforcement of a herd mentality. :dunce: But bless God for the minority who do right and risk the consequences and follow after God by His word despite what basically everyone else is doing.

I can’t wait to meet Noah. Building a ship for a transport medium (flooding and rain) that was not before realized other than normal waterways represents unprecedented faith and a willingness to go against the odds. That would be like in this day and age, you making a “space ship” and not having a propulsion drive unit, while all the neighbors could see what you are doing for like a hundred years! Talk about a faith that went against the stream.

I’m with Noah, I don’t care if you can find a 1,000 bible violators who you have adopted to conform your faith to, I will continue to care to hold you personally accountable before God by the righteous standard of His word. So please stop relying on others to defend yourself when all you have to do is open your bible with a willing heart and answer some very basic questions, like, am you being taught to directly contradict specific scripture teachings and then to replace that specifically voided meaning with nothing specific at all?

God’s word is not so hard to understand. But for you, you have rendered yourself dumber than a 10 year old because most any 10 year old (who has not already been brain washed by neoPlatonism) could at least get close to the meaning of one half of one single verse by also reading those 7 verses just before it! But you, with all your education and maturing intellect, you can not do that much. And now you offer this substitute, which does not approach to replace the meaning of Jonah 3.10b (not that it specifically tried to) nor the Potter and the clay as God clearly teaches it. (even though it tried to)

Be courageous like Calvin and Luther and oppose false doctrine in favor of the bible in spite of longstanding tradition.

Or, ,,,

not. The choice if freely yours.

Your reply with it's name-calling and "bashing" of another Christian brother just goes to show how arrogant you are, and how true Patrick Mells quote really is. You don't like my beliefs because:

"it has never entered into your brain that God existed from all eternity and, as our Creator, has supreme ownership of us -- that He was under no obligation to create us nor to destine us for one end rather than another. Your pride and self-love cause you to REBEL at the declaration that God, in making and in disposing of us, consults His sovereign pleasure and His glory RATHER then your interests. Thus, you are disposed to reply against God."

And in turn, bash me at the same time, declaring I'm wrong and God is unrighteous, according to biblical truth. You believe man's will and interests hold a higher standard and value in God's eyes than His own.

Proverbs 16:18, 21:24, 29:23
Pride goes before destruction, And a haughty spirit before a fall.

A proud and haughty man--"Scoffer" is his name; He acts with arrogant pride.

A man's pride will bring him low, But the humble in spirit will retain honor.


You hold no honor in my eyes.

 

[smaller]

Greetings godrulz

The uncreated Creator God cannot make himself to not exist.

Since there is NO TERM or EXPRESSION that will ever define or capture GOD He will remain BEYOND your CAPTURE. This concept seems to continually evade you and Mr. 1Say.

Jesus Christ IS God's EXPRESSION that we CAN SEE AND UNDERSTAND (to some extent) and I accept JESUS CHRIST as God's Sole Expression IN TOTALITY to US.

This still keeps God (The Father) as an position BEYOND your horse corral. Even Jesus has portions of God's Position that cannot be LIMITED, for example Jesus has THE SPIRIT WITHOUT LIMIT.

get it? I doubt it.

He is infinite and indestructible.

Oh, but you see EVEN GOD, in His DIRECT EXPRESSION died eh? You gainsayers only want things YOUR WAY and 1SAY. I object and reject your personal and subjective limits. You and 1Say are IDOL MAKERS at best.

It is illogical to say that God exists, but could then at some point go back and make it like He never existed.

I say YOU cannot define, capture, or PROVE that He exists, therefore you should probably shut up for awhile. You and 1SAY could write for ETERNITY and still not DEFINE OR CAPTURE GOD and my observation will still remain TRUE, that being GOD IS BEYOND DEFINITIONS or anything that you can use TO CAPTURE His existence.

He is self-existent

Do you HONESTLY think that this PATHETIC statement IS what GOD IS????

and cannot make Himself not exist at any point.

You DO NOT KNOW what IS or DEFINES His existence so how can you say WHAT GOD CANNOT DO????

I prefer that God can do ALL THINGS rather than the things you restrict Him to. get it??? I doubt it....

This is not a limitation on God, but a logical absurdity or contradiction (based on the nature and attributes of the eternal God).

Listen you GOD BINDER. You cannot even HANDLE a simple CONTRADICTION in the text wherein GOD DIRECTS LIES and GOD DOES NOT LIE.

Clearly in this CONTRADICTION there remains some amount of SHORTAGE on YOUR PART to work your way through it.

I get sick of you and 1SAY's expressed LIMITATIONS. Neither of you appear to be able to even READ.

smaller

 

[godrulz]

God cannot make my unique person Satan, smaller, my wife, President Bush, Mozart, and God Himself etc. at the same time.

There are moral and physical laws in the universe established by God. Some things really are logical contradictions or absurdities and are not a limitation on God. Reality reflects truth. Truth is absolute, but it also conforms to reality. An apple cannot be a bananna at the same time (for us or God). A soul cannot end up in heaven and hell for eternity at the same time (I know, you do not believe in hell for people). God cannot make me to be a work and on Jupiter in my limited physical body at the same time.

It is specious to say that God can do anything. Omnipotence means that He can do anything doable. Some things simply are not doable, even for an infinite Being. Religious and secular philosophers would concur on these reasonable concepts that are consistent with God's revelation in His Word and creation.

 

[smaller]

Ah, godrulz....you just don't get it....

ALL THINGS serve God.

He Himself is BOUND BY NO THING.

Your little imaginary scenario can only be PROVEN TRUE if you KNEW EVERYTHING that GOD KNOWS...

So really you are JUST GUESSING...

 

[godrulz]

An atheist cannot say there is no God, because that would make the man all-knowing, and a god.

A theist has the mind of Christ and is able to reason from God's revelation and creation. We do not have to know everything God does to know that a pencil cannot be a finger at the same time. Design reflects the great intelligence of a Designer and is understandable and not absurd. It dishonors God to imply that He must be able to do false or absurd things to maintain His unlimited perfections.

 

[smaller]

Theists should begin by not making GOD AN IDOL out of their own heads....

In the forming of these IDOL limits upon God they show themselves as idol worshippers....not God worshippers

We have observed prior that your god is LOGIC...and men's logic at that.... I am sure if we dug a little deeper we would find it is only YOUR LOGIC that you "worship."

You have made a lying little premise that I have exposed publically.

That LIE is that God cannot USE EVIL to BRING ABOUT GOOD.

You say "this is not logical."

I say you are NOT GOD.

 

[godrulz]

God can creatively redeem a situation and use the undesirable evil to bring about some good. This does not mean He instigates evil or is responsible for it. He allows it, but does not cause it (contrary to His holiness).

God is the greatest intellect in the universe. We are made in His image and have moral, intellectual, emotional capacity (to a lesser degree). The laws of the universe reflect the mind and heart of God. There is no need to thing that our reality is an inaccurate illusion with no connection to God's reality. He is a God of order, not chaos and contradiction. Humanistic logic is not the same as godly, divine logic in every sense. 2+2= 4 for God and us, or communication/reality is a deception. God is truth in the spiritual and natural realm.

 

[smaller]

We have already been throught this exercise godrulz...

God CREATED evil. He USED evil. He even MURDERED His Own Son via ALLOWANCE...as if He were NOT able to stop it??? His Own Son even ASKED Him to let that cup pass...

but alas...

did this evil result in GOOD...???

I would have to say UNDOUBTEDLY...

You on the other hand are a Pollyanna IDOL worshipper who bows to some stuff hammered out in the fires of your own heart...

 

[godrulz]

The evil of the crucifixion was for the good of mankind. It was the plan and purpose of God to have the Lamb of God slain as an atonement. God did not hang Jesus on the cross. Men did this. I concur that the intended evil was planned by God and used for His glory and our good.

 

[smaller]

No godrulz...it was GOD'S WILL. Men were His Instruments OF HIS OWN SON'S MURDER...but as Jesus said...nevertheless not my will but YOURS...

So you conceed that EVIL was PLANNED by God...go figure...

Yet you will not conceed that GOD CREATED EVIL (Isaiah 45:7) go figure...

And you say God cannot LIE, but yet DIRECTED and COMMANDED lies to be told...go figure....

and we might as well throw in adultery and child murder etc....

ALL planned, directed, controlled by, or ALLOWED BY God...

You see there really is NO DIFFERENCE...God is IMPLICATED directly NO MATTER WHAT...

Yet HE is Great Enough to CONTROL THE OUTCOME OF ANY EVENT...

Your PREVIOUS conclusions then would appear to be RATHER SHORT of what God CAN do...

God IS The Saviour of THE WORLD....and of ALL MANKIND....

There is NONE that can WITHSTAND HIM...

 

[LightSon]

Originally posted by godrulz
... God does not meticulously control the individual free moral choices of moral agents in regards to eternal destiny. This would be contrary to His creation mandate, moral law, and character. It would also negate human responsibility/accountability for virtue or vice.

I have heard this from my youth in one form or another. And it makes a certain amount of (human) sense. But it occurs to me that it just might be "specious". Might, I said. Do you, godrulze have any scripture to support the idea?
I've heard Calvinists arduously defend the idea that God "controls" all things, AND that man has "free will," and that there is no contradiction implied, but that somehow in God's eternal mind, these things work together, despite the fact that it boggles our puny little finite brains.
Looking forward to your perspective. I try to remain opened minded; just trying to stir the furnace a bit.

 

[5Solas=Truth]

Lightson, I am a soft determinist, an aherent of compatibilism. I think that this view best describes the reality of a sovereign God and the relationship that must obtain in lieu of his creation. Have you ever read much on the subject?

blessings