Does Calvinism limit God?

5Solas=Truth

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no, you are mistaken... read again the careful exegesis of the passage above...

Originally posted by godrulz

Open Theism is significantly different from the heresy of Process Theology. The few similarities do not compare with the differences.

Ephesians 1:11 is about the corporate, not individual, election of those who would believe. All believers will become part of the Church, which is chosen to be the people of God. God does not meticulously control the individual free moral choices of moral agents in regards to eternal destiny. This would be contrary to His creation mandate, moral law, and character. It would also negate human responsibility/accountability for virtue or vice.

It is not a foregone conclusion that Calvinism is the same as Biblical Christianity. It is a problematic theological system (TULIP) and should not be assumed to be true in every aspect.

also consider the following:

"There are two sentiments with which the mind of the apostle was thoroughly imbued. The one is, a sense of the absolute supremacy of God, and the other a corresponding sense of the dependence of man and the consequent conviction of the entirely gratuitous nature of all the benefits of redemption. To these sentiments he seldom fails to give expression on any fit occasion. In the present instance having said we have in Christ obtained a glorious inheritance, the question suggests itself, Why? His answer is: Having been predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will. It is neither by chance nor by our own desert or efforts, that we, and not others, have been thus highly favored. It has been brought about according to the purpose and by the efficiency of God. What has happened He predetermined should occur, and to his “working” the event is to be exclusively referred. We are said to be predestinated..... , according to the purpose of God. In verse 5 the same thing is expressed by saying: ‘We were predestinated according to the good pleasure of his will;’ and in Romans 8:28, by saying: ‘We are called according to his purpose.’ Two things are included in these forms of expression.
1. That what occurs was foreseen and foreordained. The plan of God embraced and ordered the events here referred to.
2. That the ground or reason of these occurrences is to be sought in God, in the determination of his will.
This however is not a singular case. The bringing certain persons to the enjoyment of the inheritance purchased by Christ, is not the only thing foreordained by God and brought about by his efficiency, and, therefore, the apostle generalizes the truth here expressed, by saying: ‘We are predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.’ Everything is comprehended in his purpose, and everything is ordered by his efficient control. That control, however, is exercised in accordance with the nature of his creatures, so that no violence is done to the constitution which he has given them. He is glorified, and his purposes are accomplished without any injustice or violence.
The counsel of his will...., means the counsel which has its origin in his will; neither suggested by others, nor determined by anything out of himself. It is therefore equivalent to his sovereign will.
(Hodge; Ephesians)

Consider these beautiful words, both on the passage, and election in general, from Wilhelmus a brakel (1635-1711):

"The decree of God is in all aspects volitional and noncompulsory. It is also not motivated in the least degree by any internal or external necessary causes. It is purely an expression of His sovereign good pleasure. “Having made known unto us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He hath purposed in Himself” (Eph. 1:9), “after the counsel of His own will” (verse 11). Compulsion and volition are mutually exclusive, but necessity and volition can very well coexist. God’s Being is of necessity volitional. The fact, however, that His will extends to matters which are extrinsic to His Being, that is, to create and govern them; to decree their manner of existence; to establish the course of events during their existence, that one will be rich and the other poor, that one will live in this locality and the other in that locality—all this is purely volitional. God could have decreed to create nothing; or if it were His will to create and govern, He could have created in a different fashion and have established a different course of events for His creatures. If a potter has power over clay to create a vessel purely by the free exercise of His will, if the head of a household has the prerogative to furnish his home as he pleases by placing one object here and another there, would then the sovereign Lord of all things not have the prerogative to deal with His clay and with His creatures according to His good pleasure? Would anyone be able to prevent Him, who is omnipotent, from doing so, thus having to adjust Himself to the whims of His creation? Would anyone be able to say, “Why hast Thou decreed it to be thus and not otherwise?” Would any creature be able to compel Him to establish a particular decree? This obviously cannot be so! His decree is the expression of His sovereign good pleasure, and it is for this reason that everything, transpiring as it does, is good because He wills it to be so. How blessed it is for the creature to acknowledge this, approve of it, and surrender His will to the will of God."

a Brakel, W. 1996, c1992. The Christian's reasonable service, Volumes 1 and 2 : In which Divine truths concerning the covenant of grace are expounded, defended against opposing parties, and their practice advocated as well as The administration of this covenant in the Old and New Testaments. Published in electronic form by Christian Classics Foundation, 1996. (electronic ed. of the first publication in the English language, based on the 3rd edition of the original Dutch work.). Soli Deo Gloria Publications: Morgan PA
 

LightSon

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Originally posted by 5Solas=Truth

Lightson, I am a soft determinist, an aherent of compatibilism. I think that this view best describes the reality of a sovereign God and the relationship that must obtain in lieu of his creation. Have you ever read much on the subject?

blessings
I have read some, but not extensively. You call yourself "5Solas." Could you delineate these for us? I infer one is "Sola scripturala". What else? Or does this handle refer to the TULIP ?
 

Z Man

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Originally posted by LightSon
Originally posted by godrulz
... God does not meticulously control the individual free moral choices of moral agents in regards to eternal destiny. This would be contrary to His creation mandate, moral law, and character. It would also negate human responsibility/accountability for virtue or vice.

I have heard this from my youth in one form or another. And it makes a certain amount of (human) sense. But it occurs to me that it just might be "specious". Might, I said. Do you, godrulze have any scripture to support the idea?
I've heard Calvinists arduously defend the idea that God "controls" all things, AND that man has "free will," and that there is no contradiction implied, but that somehow in God's eternal mind, these things work together, despite the fact that it boggles our puny little finite brains.
Looking forward to your perspective. I try to remain opened minded; just trying to stir the furnace a bit. :)
Just want to add my two cents worth...

I don't know if you read this earlier Lightson, but this quote from Patrick Mell does a great job of explaining why those such as godrulz would say what he said quoted above.

We are too much disposed to think of the eternal God as if He were just such a being as we are. Looking too exclusively upon our free agency and accountability, we lose sight of God's sovereignty and omniscience. Confining our observations only to the brief period which limits our existence on earth, we view Him as a mere contemporary with ourselves whose only jurisdiction is to reward us if we do well, to note our improper conduct if we act amiss, and to bring us into judgment hereafter. It does not enter into our conceptions that He existed from all eternity and, as our Creator, has supreme ownership of us -- that He was under no obligation to create us nor to destine us for one end rather than another. Our pride and self-love cause us to rebel at the declaration that God, in making and in disposing of us, consults His sovereign pleasure and His glory rather then our interests. And we are disposed to reply against God. As if He had not, in the beginning, in reference to us, the same right and the same power that the potter has out of clay to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor (Rom. 9:21).

- Patrick Mells

That's why godrulz and others say that what we (calvinists) believe goes against what they believe to be the nature and goodness of God.
 

helmet84

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Proverbs 16:18, 21:24, 29:23
Pride goes before destruction, And a haughty spirit before a fall.

A proud and haughty man--"Scoffer" is his name; He acts with arrogant pride.

A man's pride will bring him low, But the humble in spirit will retain honor.

I've read a lot of posts by this fellow who calls himself "1 way", and I must admit, sadly, that these verses describe him very well. But I shall go to the throneroom and ask the King, that if "1way" is indeed one of His sheep, to take away his pride and show him his sin, and that He will do to "1way" what He did to Lydia -- He opened her heart so that she would heed the things spoken by Paul.
-- helmet84
 

Z Man

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Originally posted by helmet84

I've read a lot of posts by this fellow who calls himself "1 way", and I must admit, sadly, that these verses describe him very well. But I shall go to the throneroom and ask the King, that if "1way" is indeed one of His sheep, to take away his pride and show him his sin, and that He will do to "1way" what He did to Lydia -- He opened her heart so that she would heed the things spoken by Paul.
-- helmet84
Amen. :)
 

LightSon

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Originally posted by Z Man
I don't know if you read this earlier Lightson, but this quote from Patrick Mell does a great job of explaining why those such as godrulz would say what he said quoted above.
Actually, I had read it Z, but just because you shared it with me specifically, I read it a second time.
Thanks.
 

godrulz

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Love seeks the highest good of God and others. God does have an interest in us and is not arbitrary. Open Theism does not denigrate the glory and majesty of God, but exalts it. You and Mells reject a 'straw man' caricature of the Open View wrongly assuming it blurs the distinction between Creator and creature. It is possible to hold to Calvinism, Arminianism, or Open Theism and recognize God's greatness. A responsive, providential God is more glorious than a stern, controlling Deity (and it is His revelation to us as evidenced in Jesus Christ). There is more than one legitimate way to understand God's sovereignty, man's free will, and His relationship to His creatures. What is the biblical model? This is our authority (not Augustinian theology influenced by pagan Greek philosophy).
 

smaller

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We are too much disposed to think of the eternal God as if He were just such a being as we are. Looking too exclusively upon our free agency and accountability, we lose sight of God's sovereignty and omniscience. Confining our observations only to the brief period which limits our existence on earth, we view Him as a mere contemporary with ourselves whose only jurisdiction is to reward us if we do well, to note our improper conduct if we act amiss, and to bring us into judgment hereafter.

Sadly a true enough statement.
It does not enter into our conceptions that He existed from all eternity and, as our Creator, has supreme ownership of us -- that He was under no obligation to create us nor to destine us for one end rather than another.

God surely has PURPOSES with Mankind. Adam was a SON OF GOD.

It would appear that God could desire A FAMILY. To be FRUITFUL and to MULTIPLY. I find fruitful multiplication a consistent presentation with God in His Word, and in His creation....
Our pride and self-love cause us to rebel at the declaration that God, in making and in disposing of us, consults His sovereign pleasure and His glory rather then our interests.

Psalm 8
3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;
4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

It is the Glory of God to conceal a thing, and the glory of Kings to seek them out...(Prov. 25)
And we are disposed to reply against God.

There was NO CHOICE in the matter. (Romans 11:32) God has PURPOSES in what ALL people are BOUND WITH.
As if He had not, in the beginning, in reference to us, the same right and the same power that the potter has out of clay to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor (Rom. 9:21).

God has formed out of ONE LUMP a vessel of honor and a vessel of destruction.

FEW see this as the position of EVERY person that God has made and mistake the vessel of honor for the vessel of destruction.
 

LightSon

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Originally posted by godrulz

Love seeks the highest good of God and others. God does have an interest in us and is not arbitrary. Open Theism does not denigrate the glory and majesty of God, but exalts it.
I appreciate you sharing your valuation of OV, godrulz.

As an official middle-of-the-road person on this issue, I make note of what each side says about their view and about competing views. I've heard Calvinists say that OV diminishes God's sovereignty etc. I've observed OVers, very recently, refer to "mindless" Calvinism.

Originally posted by godrulz
There is more than one legitimate way to understand God's sovereignty, man's free will, and His relationship to His creatures. What is the biblical model?
Good point, and good question!
I know many solid, Christ-honoring, engaging Christian men who are Calvinists. Incidentally, I've never had a face-to-face discussion with an OV person. Only on TOL have I seen so many OVers. It seems to be a contemporary doctrine and movement.

I think both sides are guilty of constructing strawmen, and throwing stones. That really troubles me. Both sides will run to the high ground of claiming THE proper Biblical hermeneutic. Yet I do allow that someone, someplace has a better approach to Biblical exegesis and logic. I keep looking for these, but in the meantime, a Christian attitude towards the brethren is indispensable.

Thanks for your even-handed treatment of this issue.
 

Z Man

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Originally posted by godrulz

Love seeks the highest good of God and others. God does have an interest in us and is not arbitrary.
God's only interest is in Himself and His glorification. He created us for His glory and interests, not ours. Everything He does is for self-exhaltation and to the glory of Himself; to suit His interests, not ours. Sometimes what God does is something we like; sometimes it isn't. But nevertheless, He does not seek to glorify man by succumbing to his interests, but rather, He seeks to glorify Himself, and He will do that no matter how much it conflicts with us and our interests. He never has to consult man to see if His will is acceptable. Never is He going to ask if He is allowed to save them, or if He is allowed to damn them. His decisions are always perfect, and are according to HIS will alone.
Open Theism does not denigrate the glory and majesty of God, but exalts it.
Open theists also claim that God must love mankind and seek to honor his interests. It states that men too must be glorified. Since Calvinism takes the equation of man out of the picture, OV'ers hate the doctrine. For some reason, it's important to you guys that man have some part in it all; that to put him aside is to declare a "lesser God"; as if, without us and the implication of our interests in the midst of God's counsel, God is nothing more than a cruel dictator of evil intentions.

Daniel 4:35
All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; He does according to His will in the army of heaven And among the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand Or say to Him, "What have You done?"

Man's interests do not matter. We are accounted as nothing, and God does according to HIS will, and His will alone. And no one can question His purposes.
 

LightSon

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Originally posted by Z Man

God's only interest is in Himself and His glorification. He created us for His glory and interests, not ours.
.......

Man's interests do not matter. We are accounted as nothing, and God does according to HIS will, and His will alone. And no one can question His purposes.
I think I understand where you are coming from Z man, but even within the context of God's self-interest, He has ordained the following:

Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore. Psalm 16:11

This is God's desire for us, which is a clear subset of His unqualified glory.

I think your presentation looses this fact, probably for the purpose of denigrating the Open View. We need to handle God's word in a fair manner.
 

Z Man

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Originally posted by LightSon

I think I understand where you are coming from Z man, but even within the context of God's self-interest, He has ordained the following:

Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore. Psalm 16:11

This is God's desire for us, which is a clear subset of His unqualified glory.

I think your presentation looses this fact, probably for the purpose of denigrating the Open View. We need to handle God's word in a fair manner.
In no way am I stating that God has no desires for us, for He does. What is the only thing that can grant men true happiness and peace? The glorification and worship of God. God's attempt and desires for us to be happy are, in the long run, His ultimate attempt for self-exaltation. For when God seeks self-exaltation through us, He is giving us the best gift ever and what truely makes us happy. As Piper once said:

God does all things for His own sake. "For My own sake, for My own sake, I do it... My glory I will not give to another." (Isa 48:11). This is love, because in pursuing the praise of His name in the hearts of His people, He commands the very thing that completes our joy. God is the one being in the universe for whom self-exaltation is the highest virtue and the most loving act.

The happiness of God in God is the foundation of our happiness in God. God's pursuit of praise from us and our pursuit of pleasure in Him are in perfect harmony. For God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in Him.
 
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godrulz

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Our theology must be theocentric, not humanistic.

God is the most valuable Being in the universe, and as such, seeks His good and glory above all things.

The Passion of the Christ (death and resurrection of the God-Man) demonstrates God's sacrificial love as one that also has our best interests at heart (unselfish love and grace, at His own expense), in addition to His own interests (not either/or, but both/and, with His glory supreme).
 
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Z Man

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Originally posted by godrulz

Our theology must be theocentric, not humanistic.

God is the most valuable Being in the universe, and as such, seeks His good and glory above all things.

The Passion of the Christ (death and resurrection of the God-Man) demonstrates God's sacrificial love as one that also has our best interests at heart (unselfish love and grace, at His own expense), in addition to His own interests (not either/or, but both/and, with His glory supreme).
Christ's sacrifice happened so that those whom God had elected to salvation could be justified in their sins. It wasn't in our interest that Christ was crucified; it was for God's interests - for His glory.
 

godrulz

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As you know, I do not believe in a limited atonement for the elect. The atonement was provisional (efficacious) for whomever would respond to His voice by repentance and faith. He died for all men, not just the elect. Not all men are saved, because some chose rebellion and selfishness over His awesome love and glory. This breaks the heart of God, but honors His moral law and the gift of freedom to love or ignore God.
 

LightSon

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Originally posted by Z Man

Christ's sacrifice happened so that those whom God had elected to salvation could be justified in their sins. ...
I am not comfortable with the notion of being "justified in [our] sins".

We are justified, but our justification is a function of having our sins cleansed. God does save us to leave us "in our sins," but to purge us from our sins. My objections may be just over the specific rhetoric. Do you, Z man, have any scripture that would support the notion of "justification in sin"?
 

godrulz

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A condition of salvation is repentance and a willingness to jettison our sinful choices. Sanctification is more than positional, and should flesh out in holy living (practical) as we love and obey Him. He saves us from our sins, not in our sins.

I suspect he believes this, but needs to edit his post.
 

Z Man

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Originally posted by LightSon

I am not comfortable with the notion of being "justified in [our] sins".

We are justified, but our justification is a function of having our sins cleansed. God does save us to leave us "in our sins," but to purge us from our sins. My objections may be just over the specific rhetoric. Do you, Z man, have any scripture that would support the notion of "justification in sin"?
I see where the confusion ties in. Sorry, didn't mean it like that. The way I worded it makes it sound like God is ok with our sins. That's not what I meant. Maybe it should of sounded more like this:

Christ's sacrifice happened so that those whom God had elected to salvation could be justified, despite their sins. It wasn't in our interest that Christ was crucified; it was for God's interests - for His glory.

Even though we are vile and evil creatures who hate God with a passion, He took it upon Himself to pay for our punishment so we wouldn't have to. If He paid for everyone's sins, then no one would go to hell. Simple logic tells us that. If what you believe is true, Godrulz, then either;

a) Everyone is saved; Universalism

or

b) Christ's blood was spilt in vain for those who go to hell, and His sacrifice was a failure (since not all will be raised, as Christ said He would do in John 6:39, 44)
 

Rolf Ernst

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Z man--I would add that His secondary purpose is the good of His people: "all things work together for good to them that love God
["We love Him because He first loved us...you have not chosen me, but I have chosen you"--what wondrous grace] to them who are the called according to..." According to what? According to something seen in us? According His foreseeing that He would give us the gifts of faith and repentance and that we would accordingly believe?
No. a thousand times, no! But according "HIS PURPOSE" Rom.8:28
"according to His own purpose and grace which was given us in christ Jesus before the world began." 2Tim.1:9 "...who has saved us and called (Rom.1:28--remember) us...not according to our works but according to His own purpose and grace which was given us in christ before the world began." I write this not to instruct YOU Zman, because I know you already hold these truths dear, but for those who are speaking to you.
 

Z Man

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Originally posted by Rolf Ernst

Z man--I would add that His secondary purpose is the good of His people: "all things work together for good to them that love God
["We love Him because He first loved us...you have not chosen me, but I have chosen you"--what wondrous grace] to them who are the called according to..." According to what? According to something seen in us? According His foreseeing that He would give us the gifts of faith and repentance and that we would accordingly believe?
No. a thousand times, no! But according "HIS PURPOSE" Rom.8:28
"according to His own purpose and grace which was given us in christ Jesus before the world began." 2Tim.1:9 "...who has saved us and called (Rom.1:28--remember) us...not according to our works but according to His own purpose and grace which was given us in christ before the world began." I write this not to instruct YOU Zman, because I know you already hold these truths dear, but for those who are speaking to you.
:thumb:
 
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