Does Calvinism limit God?

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Originally posted by Z Man


Christ's sacrifice happened so that those whom God had elected to salvation could be justified, despite their sins. It wasn't in our interest that Christ was crucified; it was for God's interests - for His glory.

Even though we are vile and evil creatures who hate God with a passion, He took it upon Himself to pay for our punishment so we wouldn't have to. If He paid for everyone's sins, then no one would go to hell. Simple logic tells us that. If what you believe is true, Godrulz, then either;

a) Everyone is saved; Universalism

or

b) Christ's blood was spilt in vain for those who go to hell, and His sacrifice was a failure (since not all will be raised, as Christ said He would do in John 6:39, 44)



a) Universalism is not true (we concur). This is the problem I have with the Commercial Transaction Theory (literal 'payment') of the atonement (1/4 major views on the atonement). A literal payment would lead to universalism with the price paid for all, regardless of man's receiving or rejecting it. I subscribe to the Moral Government of God theory (public vs retributive justice).

Under either view, some, but not all are saved. Calvinism attributes this to God's unsearchable will and right to do what He wants (1/2 true, but God lives up to a moral law based on truth and righteousness). Other views rightly attribute the 'failure' to man (and Satan) and His evil choice to break the heart of God. Man, not God, is culpable and responsible for a life and eternity separate from His glory. We are created for fellowship. While we were yet sinners, He died for us. He died for me, I will live for Him.
Others say: who cares...I will do it 'my way' (Frank Sinatra song) and suffer the avoidable consequence.

Christians say: "THY (God) will be done"

Unbelievers say: My will be done. God says to them: "thy (man) will be done" (with the result of eternal ruin that He never intended for them and died for them to prevent this tragedy).

b) Christ will raise up all those who will believe in Him (His sheep)to the end (as promised). He will not raise up those who reject Him (He never said He would, it they hate Him). The atonement is efficacious for all provisionally in the same way an antidote will be effective against poison for those who take it. The problem is not with the antidote, if a person refuses to take it. The problem is not with the atonement or its effectiveness (efficacious) or scope (unlimited, for all). The blood was not spilt in vain, nor was the sacrifice a failure (in a sense it was for those who continue to rebel to the end...but this is not God's fault).

You have created a false dichotomy assuming there are only 2 conclusions (and assuming a particular view of the atonement and Calvinism).

c) A third option is that the atonement was INTENDED for all (not just the arbitrary 'elect') and is efficacious (effective) based on the GROUNDS of salvation (reason for which/by which we are saved)= grace and the death/resurrection of Christ.

The other factor is the CONDITIONS (not without which) of salvation evidenced in revelation: genuine repentance, faith (which involves love, trust, obedience, submission, knowledge, mental assent), and continuance/perseverance to the end.

You are correct that God saves us despite being sinners, but it is expected that we will be transformed (rather than remain in a sinful state perpetually...unless we take up the cross, we cannot be His disciples with a hope of eternal life).

- Unless you repent, you will perish (Lk.)

- Belief vs unbelief (Jn. 3; I Jn.); Jn. 1:12 Those who receive Him will be children of God; those who reject Him will perish and are children of wrath.

- Warnings of the possibility of apostasy... Rev. 2;3; Hebrews

Calvinistic assumptions confuse, not clarify the issue (TULIP).

The biblical picture is that God created everything 'very good', but free moral agents messed it up (possibility necessary for there to be genuine freedom, love, relationship). God implemented a plan of redemption that saves many (cf. ark/Flood), but not all. The plan is powerful and brilliant, yet many reject it. Jesus wept over Jerusalem. God is grieved and heart-broken and seeks to save the one lost sheep, causing rejoicing in heaven over one sinner that repents.

God's will to redeem 'whomsoever' is thwarted by some individuals with the consequence of separation from God. This is a higher good and loving as opposed to making us robots that must conform to His dictatorship. Hell comes out of the love and holiness of God. It is a place for selfish people who do not want to be with God anyway.

Salvation is primarily a love relationship (2 parties, not unilateral) that must be freely entered into and maintained. It is not a mere metaphysical change in our being. It is not just a decree of a Sovereign Dictator who unjustly saves some while condemning others with no consideration of their moral choices (love God or live for Self). God's moral law of love, justice, and holiness are based on truth/reality, not His mysterious, arbitrary will.

Yes, He does not have to save anyone, but it is more glorious that He loves us all impartially and wants everyone (not just the elect) to come to repentance, because He is not willing that any should perish (2 Peter 3:9). The Passion of the Christ shows God's great love for sinful man, the awefulness of sin, and the hope for all who will surrender their swords of rebellion against the Almighty and say 'Lord have mercy on me a sinner'. A theology that says God cannot or will not save all who come in humility and brokenness is not worthy of the God of Scripture as revealed in Jesus.

The other problem is a Calvinistic view that sees life as a fatalistic cosmic blueprint meticulously controlled by God's will (good and evil).

The Scriptural view is a warfare model where there is a battle for the souls of men. God is responsive and creative, not all-controlling. Moral agents are a factor in the universe, as is genuine free will. The victory was assured at Calvary and will be achieved at the end of the age. In between, there will be casualities and Satan will kill and destroy souls that God wanted to redeem. cf. WW II D-Day and VE-Day.
 

Z Man

New member
Originally posted by godrulz

b) Christ will raise up all those who will believe in Him (His sheep)to the end (as promised). He will not raise up those who reject Him (He never said He would, it they hate Him).
Exactly. Christ said that those whom the Father gives Him will never perish, and that He would raise them up at the last day. Your notion that all men are drawn by God's grace is false, since Christ said ALL that the Father gives Him, He will raise up on the last day (John 6:39, 44). You don't believe in universalism, thus you must agree that Christ only died for those whom the Father gave to Him; His sheep. That's what Jesus said.

That's why for you to state that Christ died for all, yet some still go to hell, is to call Jesus a liar. He said that ALL whom God has given Him will never perish.
c) A third option is that the atonement was INTENDED for all (not just the arbitrary 'elect') and is efficacious (effective) based on the GROUNDS of salvation (reason for which/by which we are saved)= grace and the death/resurrection of Christ.

The other factor is the CONDITIONS (not without which) of salvation evidenced in revelation: genuine repentance, faith (which involves love, trust, obedience, submission, knowledge, mental assent), and continuance/perseverance to the end.
In other words, our salvation depends upon our good works; if we meet the GROUNDS and CONDITIONS of it, then we shall receive it as a "reward" for our obediance. So untrue...

Take man out of the equation, and you will be correct. Salvation is 100% God, 0% man.
God's will to redeem 'whomsoever' is thwarted by some individuals with the consequence of separation from God.
No man can ever thwart the purposes/will of God.

Job 42:1-2
Then Job answered the Lord: "I know that thou can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted."

Is 14:24,27
The Lord of Hosts has sworn: "As I have planned, so shall it be, and as I have purposed, so shall it stand....For the Lord of Hosts has purposed, and who will make it void? His hand is stretched out, and who will turn it back?"

Daniel 4:35
All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing; and He does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay His hand or say to Him, "What are you doing?"
This is a higher good and loving as opposed to making us robots that must conform to His dictatorship. Hell comes out of the love and holiness of God. It is a place for selfish people who do not want to be with God anyway.
Hell's not for the "specially sinful" people; it's for every man. You are no better than any other man. You are just as selfish and rebellious. Had God not granted you repentance, you'd be heading for hell just as blind as everyone else. You're no more special than they are.
A theology that says God cannot or will not save all who come in humility and brokenness is not worthy of the God of Scripture as revealed in Jesus.
If you're referring to Calvinism, then you are greatly ignorant of it's claims. Those who go to God in humilty and brokeness are the very ones whom God has saved! You don't love God to be saved; to love God IS to be saved!

To state that calvinists believe that God turns away those who come to him with true humility, seeking salvation, is a lie. First of all, we believe no man can do this without the help of God intervening and taking away their sinful depravity of their carnal mind. And if God does this to someone, granting them repentance, why in the world would He turn them away? Hogwash! That makes no common sense whatsoever!

Ignorant observation on your part. Just goes to show who is really building the "strawmen" around here...
Moral agents are a factor in the universe, as is genuine free will.
We are accounted as nothing (Daniel 4:35). And no man has freewill until God saves them. Only believers have the option of serving God, and to make the willful choice to actually sin. Non-believers do not have that "luxury", or option, or freewill.
between, there will be casualities and Satan will kill and destroy souls that God wanted to redeem.
Than Satan is more powerful than God, if he is able to destroy what God had purposed to redeem.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Salvation is not based on works. The work of God is to believe on the one He sent. Repentance and faith are not works, but are clearly conditions of salvation. Genuine faith (vs mental assent) will lead to works, but is not the grounds for salvation (nor a condition).

Salvation is relationship. It is not a passive process that only involves God. He initiates reconciliation, but we respond with His enablement.

I believe Calvinism has some dogmatic assumptions and circular reasoning that are not defensible.
 

Z Man

New member
Originally posted by godrulz

Salvation is not based on works. The work of God is to believe on the one He sent. Repentance and faith are not works, but are clearly conditions of salvation. Genuine faith (vs mental assent) will lead to works, but is not the grounds for salvation (nor a condition).

Salvation is relationship. It is not a passive process that only involves God. He initiates reconciliation, but we respond with His enablement.

I believe Calvinism has some dogmatic assumptions and circular reasoning that are not defensible.
You don't know what you really believe, because you always coward when questioned. You never give a full response back, letting the person you are debating with wondering if you are either lazy, or just uncertain.

I've tried having a thorough, deep discussion with you before, but you coward away from it, stating you don't have enough time. Yet you come in every now and then with random replies, like a "drive-by" of thoughts. No one here is interested in how you "feel" towards a certain idea; we want to know scripturally why you believe what you believe to be true is true. When confronted scripturally with a rational and thought out reply, don't coward from a more ful-filling response. Otherwise, people will believe that you aren't concerned with truth, but rather concerned that people just know and understand your ideas and theology the way you deem to be correct.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Thank you for your personal opinion. A forum is not a full-time scholastic job. It would take hours and years to flesh out everything we believe and why (volumes have been written on our current discussion). I feel you have presuppositions that are not defensible. My endless comments seem to have little impact, so I try to be a steward of time. Interpretations on any given verse can be found from different perspectives with some research.

Not every thread or post or word in a post will be of interest. This does not make a person lazy or ignorant. Some of us do not want to be argumentative on every point by every person. I would not take this personally or put people down who are not playing by your narrow, dogmatic rules.

e.g. Salvation is primarily a love relationship with God. Do you really need chapter and verse to prove the obvious? A Christianity without relationship at its heart is a mere ritualistic religion. I should not have to exhaustively defend this point with a fellow believer.

We are both in the Protestant tradition. I do not appreciate you saying I believe in salvation by works. This just shows your misunderstanding of my views (since you are trying to put me in a box based on a fraction of my ideas and support).
 

geralduk

New member
Originally posted by smaller

Ah, godrulz....you just don't get it....

ALL THINGS serve God.

He Himself is BOUND BY NO THING.

Your little imaginary scenario can only be PROVEN TRUE if you KNEW EVERYTHING that GOD KNOWS...

So really you are JUST GUESSING...

He is 'BOUND' to His WORD.
and His WORD is 'bound' to Him.
 

smaller

BANNED
Banned
2 Timothy 2:9
-the word of God is not bound.

Calvinists say GOD WILL NOT...even though God WILLS.

God has a good will, an acceptable will, and a perfect will. He also has an evil will. Remarkably these wills are in perpetual conflict.

God wills ALL MEN to be saved and even IS The Saviour of All men, yet HE WILL NOT save them.

Not only that but God made these certain men specifically for eternal damnation.

So using this understanding ALL becomes SOME and The Saviour of All becomes the ETERNAL TORTURER of MOST...

and the elect are merely along for the ride...giving their applause when prompted to do so...
 

LightSon

New member
Originally posted by smaller

2 Timothy 2:9
-the word of God is not bound.
Lol. Good one smaller. You like the WORD when it suits your purposes. But if the WORD cuts across your theory, you either ignore it, apply it to Satan, or attack the presenter as a hateful burner of God's children.

Again, until you deal with the WORD honestly & thoroughly, your theory is unsubstantiated.

Incidentally the verse you quoted was adeptly ripped out of context. geralduk is right. God is true to His WORD. He can be trusted to speak truth, all the time. He will not just set His WORD aside to suit His fancy.
 

Z Man

New member
Originally posted by godrulz

e.g. Salvation is primarily a love relationship with God. Do you really need chapter and verse to prove the obvious? A Christianity without relationship at its heart is a mere ritualistic religion. I should not have to exhaustively defend this point with a fellow believer.
Your assumption that Calvinists do not believe in salvation as a love relationship is false. "We love God, because He FIRST loved us" (1 John 4:19).
We are both in the Protestant tradition. I do not appreciate you saying I believe in salvation by works. This just shows your misunderstanding of my views (since you are trying to put me in a box based on a fraction of my ideas and support).
Look, I know that personally, you nor anyone else who hold your views to be true, believe in salvation by works. However, your beliefs state that, no matter how you try to get around it. If our salvation is even .01% dependant upon us, then we have something to boast in. We can truely say, "well, I wouldn't be saved if I didn't do that one thing...". If our salvation depends upon us meeting certain grounds/conditions/actions, then it is of our works - even if it's a small percentage - and we have something to boast in. Declare God fully 100% responsible for our salvation, and He gets all the glory. See how it works?
 

helmet84

New member
If our salvation is even .01% dependant upon us, then we have something to boast in. We can truely say, "well, I wouldn't be saved if I didn't do that one thing...". If our salvation depends upon us meeting certain grounds/conditions/actions, then it is of our works - even if it's a small percentage - and we have something to boast in. Declare God fully 100% responsible for our salvation, and He gets all the glory. See how it works?

That indeed is the heart of the matter. Well said.
-- helmet84
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
"Unless YOU REPENT, YOU will perish"

This is a condition of salvation. God does not repent for you. You must be willing to turn from sin and turn to Him in obedience and surrender. This is not a work. He initiates with love, drawing, and conviction. We respond by surrendering our will to love and follow Him by His grace and truth.

If salvation was all of God, then all would be saved, since He loves all men impartially.

The Calvinist concludes that God must only elect some and thus the atonement is limited.

The alternate view is that God desires all men to be saved (He is loving, just, impartial), but not everyone responds to His loving overtures. This grieves and breaks the heart of God. Jesus would have gathered Jerusalem, but THEY (not God) were not willing. Relationship involves 2 parties in reconciliation. Hence, salvation is not unilateral or coercive.
 

geralduk

New member
Originally posted by smaller

2 Timothy 2:9
-the word of God is not bound.

Calvinists say GOD WILL NOT...even though God WILLS.

God has a good will, an acceptable will, and a perfect will. He also has an evil will. Remarkably these wills are in perpetual conflict.

God wills ALL MEN to be saved and even IS The Saviour of All men, yet HE WILL NOT save them.

Not only that but God made these certain men specifically for eternal damnation.

So using this understanding ALL becomes SOME and The Saviour of All becomes the ETERNAL TORTURER of MOST...

and the elect are merely along for the ride...giving their applause when prompted to do so...

Here then is the utter folly in trusting to our own understanding and not upon HIM.

'He (GOD) has an evil will'

It is NOT God who is NOT willing to save"is His hand short that He cannot save"?
But MEN who "love darkness rather than light" and so do not COME TO THE LIGHT.
Neither "comprehend it not"
for is it not written that "GOD is NOT willing that any should perish but that ALL(men) SHOULD COME TO A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH"?
Therefore to justyfy yourself you call God evil.
To sugest that God is in perpetual conflict is also folly for how then is He the "Prince of PEACE"!
and HOW if having NO peace could He give US PEACE "not like the worlds peace"
For you cannot give that which you do not have.

You also deny your own words for before you have said MEN are not sent to hell.
But here you say men ARE and at Gods WILL.

wHICH IS IT?

But not as you supose in either case.

For you twist the scriptures and call God a liar.
and do that which you say God has and although HE IS NOT you are what you say you are.

For How can God beign GOOD(is it denied?)bring forth that which is evil?
How can a sweet waters bring forth bitter?
It is YOUR concepts of God which is at fault and thus your 'reasoning' unsound and your 'doctrins' not of God.
The ONLY way to understand the scriptures and get a RIGHT understanding of the truth is if you are willing to be LED "into all truth" by HIM who is the SPIRIT of TRUTH.
By the WORD.
For HE ALONE knows "the mind of God"
and so can reveal it to the minds of men.


Oh and you misquote CALVIN ALSO.
Even as you do the scriptures.
 

smaller

BANNED
Banned
geralduk, do I really have to respond to your nonsense?
Here then is the utter folly in trusting to our own understanding and not upon HIM.

'He (GOD) has an evil will'

It is NOT God who is NOT willing to save"is His hand short that He cannot save"?
But MEN who "love darkness rather than light" and so do not COME TO THE LIGHT.
Neither "comprehend it not"
for is it not written that "GOD is NOT willing that any should perish but that ALL(men) SHOULD COME TO A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH"?
Therefore to justyfy yourself you call God evil.

Do you understand the difference between God using EVIL and being EVIL?

Let's do the logic once again. ALL THINGS serve God who is GREATER.

God is ABLE to both create and use EVIL and make GOOD of it.

get it? or do you have a problem with this simplicity.

I do not buy the fact that MEN defeat GOD. Sorry. It is a laughable position to hold for a so called believer.
To sugest that God is in perpetual conflict is also folly for how then is He the "Prince of PEACE"!

Did you bother to notice I was refuting the multi-will in conflict CALVIN god? Or do you prefer to be MANipulated by the false accuser???
and HOW if having NO peace could He give US PEACE "not like the worlds peace"
For you cannot give that which you do not have.

Never said He doesn't. Did you lose your peace somewhere along the way?
You also deny your own words for before you have said MEN are not sent to hell.
But here you say men ARE and at Gods WILL.

wHICH IS IT?

Perhaps a reading comprehension course is in order for you G.
But not as you supose in either case.

For you twist the scriptures and call God a liar.
and do that which you say God has and although HE IS NOT you are what you say you are.

Can you spell rambling false accuser?
For How can God beign GOOD(is it denied?)bring forth that which is evil?

You can either accept Isaiah 45:7 or deny it. If you deny it there is an abundance of other text to confirm it. God created EVIL.

Satan did not create himself either. Who gives anything their abilities? Your supposed "freewill" seems to conjure up more than it is capable of.
How can a sweet waters bring forth bitter?

You do this continually. God can do whatever He wants.
It is YOUR concepts of God which is at fault and thus your 'reasoning' unsound and your 'doctrins' not of God.

Yeah right. My concept of God is this. LOOK, it's HIS DEAL. All of it. I just happen to be part of the play.
The ONLY way to understand the scriptures and get a RIGHT understanding of the truth is if you are willing to be LED "into all truth" by HIM who is the SPIRIT of TRUTH.

Oh God, spare me the ordeal of listening to how geralduk saved himself and atoned for himself. This I earnestly pray.
By the WORD.
For HE ALONE knows "the mind of God"
and so can reveal it to the minds of men.


Oh and you misquote CALVIN ALSO.
Even as you do the scriptures.
.

Look you little false accuser. If you have specifics bring 'em. Otherwise you join the list of the marked liars. I gave what I see as a synopsis of Calvin's view. Nowhere did I "quote" Calvin so DID I MISQUOTE CALVIN??? And NOWHERE did I misquote SCRIPTURES. Blind little slave.

smaller
 

Z Man

New member
Originally posted by godrulz

"Unless YOU REPENT, YOU will perish"

This is a condition of salvation. God does not repent for you. You must be willing to turn from sin and turn to Him in obedience and surrender. This is not a work. He initiates with love, drawing, and conviction. We respond by surrendering our will to love and follow Him by His grace and truth.
All those whom the Father saves will repent.

"You don't love God to be saved; to love God IS to be saved. It is a gift, not an achievment. You can make yourself religious, you can make yourself moral, but you can't make yourself love. "We love God", John says, "because He first loved us (1 John 4:19)."
- Fredrick Buechnar

According to you, God does not save us. He only initiates...

"He initiates with love, drawing, and conviction. We respond by surrendering our will to love and follow Him by His grace and truth."

In order to be saved, according to you, a person MUST "surrender their will to love and follow Him by His grace and truth." Salvation is of us, not God. It rests in our hands, according to your claims. Thus, salvation becomes a work. It's something we have to achieve of our own accomplishments.
If salvation was all of God, then all would be saved, since He loves all men impartially.
I've never read that before. Are you suggesting that God is obligated to save everyman and destine them to Heaven, if He has the ability?
The Calvinist concludes that God must only elect some and thus the atonement is limited.
Since some go to hell, it must be concluded that Christ did not die for them. If one claims such a false statement, they are literally saying that His sacrifice for that damned individual was a failure, and Christ died in vain.

He only died for those that believe. That's common sense.
The alternate view is that God desires all men to be saved (He is loving, just, impartial), but not everyone responds to His loving overtures. This grieves and breaks the heart of God. Jesus would have gathered Jerusalem, but THEY (not God) were not willing. Relationship involves 2 parties in reconciliation. Hence, salvation is not unilateral or coercive.
This religious dogma sickens me. In this "alternate view" of yours, it makes Christians out to be the "good" people, who were obediant and loving towards God by repenting and believing in Him, while the rest of the scum on earth harden their hearts and reject the gospel because of pride. It's saying that Christians are better than everyone else. And I say that is a lie.

Where is the humility? What happened to "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"? And the scripture that says, "the carnal mind is enmity against God. Indeed, it CANNOT please Him"? Do the christians not have a carnal mind before they were saved? Do you somehow manage to be some sort of special exception to this "condemnation" of our sins and carnal mind? Are you able to somehow free yourself from your own sinful state, and repent to God of your own enslaved will? There is so much boasting and glory that can be given to man in this false view of yours!

That's why I hate it. It takes the glory that is rightfully God's and hands it to men.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Ultimately, God gets the glory for anyone's salvation. God and His Gospel are efficacious and powerful. Jesus also taught about the differing types of soil/hearts that receive the Word.

God is there, and He is not silent (Schaeffer).

If we draw near to God, He will draw near to us.

He looks for men who hunger for truth and meets them where they are at.

It is a remarkable thing that He has given us the ability to love or live selfishly. He wants those who will voluntarily love and worship Him. He is not looking for an army of robots who were coerced into the Kingdom.

We have all sinned and cannot boast. He did it all, but we must trust Him. Belief and unbelief are acts of the will. We are responsible and accountable for what we do with the light we have.

The Gospel is preached to persuade all men. It is not an illusion intended only for the elect.

Calvinism has many assumptions. I would not assume that it has clarity in every detail of its conclusions.
 

John Reformed

New member
Originally posted by godrulz

"Unless YOU REPENT, YOU will perish"

This is a condition of salvation. God does not repent for you. You must be willing to turn from sin and turn to Him in obedience and surrender. This is not a work. He initiates with love, drawing, and conviction. We respond by surrendering our will to love and follow Him by His grace and truth.

You are right..."God does not repent for you"; What He does do is grant repentance to those whom He has chosen. Acts 11:18 "When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

2 Timothy 2:25 "...correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,".

You state that the unregenerate (natural) man must be willing. From where does this willingness spring? The heart? The mind? If so, does that not lead us to conclude that only those who are more decent than the rest (having a spiritual sensitivity toward the gospel message) will be saved? BUT WAIT! The Bible says that the natural man cannot understand the things of God: 1 Cor 2:14 “ The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.”


Originally posted by godrulz If salvation was all of God, then all would be saved, since He loves all men impartially.

The problem with this statement is that it contradicts Scripture. As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” (Rom 9: 13)

Looking forward to your reply,
John Reformed
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Romans 9-11 is about the corporate election of Israel and should not be extrapolated to individual salvation. The sovereign election of the nation of Israel did not mean every individual in the nation was in right relationship with God. The soul that sins is the one that will die (not the one that God decides will live or die without moral choices to produce virtue or vice).
 

Z Man

New member
Originally posted by godrulz

Romans 9-11 is about the corporate election of Israel and should not be extrapolated to individual salvation. The sovereign election of the nation of Israel did not mean every individual in the nation was in right relationship with God. The soul that sins is the one that will die (not the one that God decides will live or die without moral choices to produce virtue or vice).
The blatant denial of truth in scriptures is evident in the way Open Theist coward away from the TRUTH and rewrite it to fit their theological way of thinking.

First of all, your "assumption" that Paul is talking about the coporate election of the nation of Israel is totally false. Notice what Paul says:

Romans 9:1-4, 6-7
I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites...

But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham...


So your wrong there. Let me also point out that Paul is not just referring to a "corporate" election here. He makes it pretty obvious that God hardens and has mercy on a personal, individualistic basis. His first example was in what God said concerning Jacob and Esau:

"Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."

Paul stated that the reason God loved one and hated the other even though they hadn't even been born yet was so:

that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls.

That's pretty personal if you ask me. Has nothing to do with corporate election, but rather the opposite. Paul continues to explain that it is God who hardens hearts and shows mercy to whomever He pleases; it's not man that deceides if he will recieve the mercies of God or not. It's totally in God's hands:

Romans 9:14-16
What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

Notice Paul says "him" and not "them". He's making the point that God elects on on individual basis, not corporately. He affirms this by continuing to give an example through the life of Pharaoh, and how God stated that He made him specifically to show His glory through his hard-heartedness. Knowing people would reject the idea that God is sovereignly control, like you and many other religious people do, Paul responds by asking the question he knew would come:

Romans 9:17-20
For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God?

As you can see, if we read God's Word truthfully, one cannot help but identify that God is an absolute sovereign God who hardens and has mercy on whomever He wills. Pharaoh didn't let the Israelites go because God hardened his heart. Esau was hated by God, although he wasn't even born yet, because God's purpose according to election must stand so that it does not become of our works, but of His will. This passage has nothing to do with the corporate election of the nation of Israel. Paul discredited that false idea from the very beginning by stating that not everyone of Israel was really a part of Israel to begin with!

Scripture rejects the false doctrine of Open Theism.
 

John Reformed

New member
Originally posted by godrulz

Romans 9-11 is about the corporate election of Israel and should not be extrapolated to individual salvation. The sovereign election of the nation of Israel did not mean every individual in the nation was in right relationship with God. The soul that sins is the one that will die (not the one that God decides will live or die without moral choices to produce virtue or vice).

Dear Godrulz,

Thank you for your reply:angel: ,

Let us reason together. Even if I were to subscribe to your pre-supposition regarding Rom 9-11, the end result would still remain;That is that it is incorrect and without scriptural support to state that God loves all mankind unconditionally. In fact your view of nations rather than individuals would lead one to conclude that that God loved one nation and hated another.

Nations are composed of individuals, are they not? Then it must be that God hated one group of individuals (the Edomites).

What am I missing here?

John
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
This difficult passage would take a book to exegete.

The character and attributes of God revealed in Scripture would support the idea that God is impartial. Deuteronomy shows that He rewards obedience/virtue (blessing) and punishes disobedience/vice (curse). The moral law of God is consistent with love, holiness, truth, justice, mercy, etc. An extreme emphasis on sovereignty (not necessarily properly understood i.e. meticulous/mystery control vs providential ) makes God culpable of things (evil; arbitrariness) that are contrary to His nature and revelation in the Word.

He chose a nation to bring forth the Messiah and accomplish His redemptive plan. The nation is composed of individuals. If the election of Israel and the Church is corporate in nature, God's sovereign plan is fulfilled. It is not necessary to go beyond the revelation to argue that the individuals were elected and predestined directly from eternity past in addition to the general corporate people (see Ephesians etc. from a corporate understanding).

i.e. Only those who repent, trust, and obey become part of the people of God. God's grace and drawing is involved. Those who freely respond in humility are added to those who are elect. Relationship and reconciliation, by definition, are not unilateral. This is where I again make the distinction between the grounds <reason for which> of salvation (grace, death/resurrection) and the conditions < not without which >of salvation (repentance, faith, continuance).

A narrow, unmerited interpretation of Rom. 9-11 to apply primarily to individual salvation leads to contradictions of other explicit passages that show that God is not willing that anyone should perish and that the atonement was efficacious and unlimited for those who repent and obey with God's enablement. We need to interpret the original meaning and then make modern application by way of principle. Those who persist in rebellion, despite God's perfect sacrifice and loving overtures, will have the consequence of not fulfilling God's intended destiny for them...to rule and reign as the redeemed. It is not God's fault or desire that Satan (thief) has the victory by robbing, killing, destroying God's creation potential for abundant and eternal life.

An attempt to support a preconceived TULIP theology will shade the interpretation of relevant passages (I am cognizant of the same danger for Arminians and Open Theists).

In other words, there are many subtle layers of issues and assumptions that will not allow for a simplistic discussion of proof texts.

I agree with your heart that our theology must be theocentric (God-centered). Calvinism seems to be more so, but the alternate views (properly understood) really are not humanistic. They simply affirm God's ultimate sovereignty while recognizing the glorious gift of genuine freedom He has given moral agents (even at the expense of absolute control of every moral and mundane detail in the universe). I also affirm that we are saved by grace, though faith, and not by works, lest we should boast. This does not negate the need to freely enter into and maintain a love relationship with Father God (who is not a coercive dictator, but a responsive Sovereign).
 
Top