BRXII Battle talk
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Nineveh
Merely Christian
xavier47 said:
Rather, it's pretty simple to just cut and paste "my doctrine" from John and Paul... but hey...what can I say? Unlike some who need pages and pages to keep dodging a question, I can see where this might seem a little strange.
Sounds like what John said, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." Paul isn't saying anything different.
The One Who decreed kidnapping is punishable by death. "He who kidnaps a man and sells him, or if he is found in his hand, shall surely be put to death."
It contains much more than some. And not all of that truth is pleasent. Take the debate that this thread is based upon. The truth of the Bible is that there is a place that unbelievers go where God is not. It is described as a lake of fire which implies extreme discomfort. It is not a pleasant truth but it is true none the less.bigbang123 said:
The verses you quote are the pleasent and encouraging verses. They are important and have their place along side the other less appealing truths.
You frequently make the point that God is a monster for sending billions of people to this hell. The fact of the matter is you do not know if that is a true statement or not. The Bible is silent regarding people who have never heard the word God. If it says nothing about a subject, what can you know about it? Nothing. You can and do (and you are not the only one to do this) infer much based on what you want to believe. But you don't know. None of us know.
The Bible is not written to the unbeliever, it is written to the believer. For those of us who believe, the Bible contans wisdom and truth and comfort and encouragement. For those who reject God, the Bible means nothing. Their hearts are closed to the truth.
The modern day world has turned God into the Great Big Teddy Bear of Love. A teddy Bear who would never dream of doing anything that we might find offensive. We have made God over in our image. When we are confronted with the Biblical truth that God is God and His wrath exists next to His love, we rebell. God is not a teddy bear, God is God. Holy and just by nature and not knowable to men. Jesus personified the grace and nercy of God and gives us a standard of care to live upto. Revelations lets us know that Gods patience has a limit and when the end times come, so does Gods wrath.
It is truth. I may not understand it all and there are parts of it I may not like or agree with. But it is truth that never changes and that I can always count on.
No. Revelations talks of the end times and Gods wrath being poured out upon the world.xavier47 said:
Isaiah 53 - Young's Literal Translation:
1Who hath given credence to that which we heard? And the arm of Jehovah, On whom hath it been revealed?
2Yea, he cometh up as a tender plant before Him, And as a root out of a dry land, He hath no form, nor honour, when we observe him, Nor appearance, when we desire him.
3He is despised, and left of men, A man of pains, and acquainted with sickness, And as one hiding the face from us, He is despised, and we esteemed him not.
4Surely our sicknesses he hath borne, And our pains -- he hath carried them, And we -- we have esteemed him plagued, Smitten of God, and afflicted.
5And he is pierced for our transgressions, Bruised for our iniquities, The chastisement of our peace [is] on him, And by his bruise there is healing to us.
6All of us like sheep have wandered, Each to his own way we have turned, And Jehovah hath caused to meet on him, The punishment of us all.
7It hath been exacted, and he hath answered, And he openeth not his mouth, As a lamb to the slaughter he is brought, And as a sheep before its shearers is dumb, And he openeth not his mouth.
8By restraint and by judgment he hath been taken, And of his generation who doth meditate, That he hath been cut off from the land of the living? By the transgression of My people he is plagued,
9And it appointeth with the wicked his grave, And with the rich [are] his high places, Because he hath done no violence, Nor [is] deceit in his mouth.
10And Jehovah hath delighted to bruise him, He hath made him sick, If his soul doth make an offering for guilt, He seeth seed -- he prolongeth days, And the pleasure of Jehovah in his hand doth prosper.
11Of the labour of his soul he seeth -- he is satisfied, Through his knowledge give righteousness Doth the righteous one, My servant, to many, And their iniquities he doth bear.
12Therefore I give a portion to him among the many, And with the mighty he apportioneth spoil, Because that he exposed to death his soul, And with transgressors he was numbered, And he the sin of many hath borne, And for transgressors he intercedeth.
1Who hath given credence to that which we heard? And the arm of Jehovah, On whom hath it been revealed?
2Yea, he cometh up as a tender plant before Him, And as a root out of a dry land, He hath no form, nor honour, when we observe him, Nor appearance, when we desire him.
3He is despised, and left of men, A man of pains, and acquainted with sickness, And as one hiding the face from us, He is despised, and we esteemed him not.
4Surely our sicknesses he hath borne, And our pains -- he hath carried them, And we -- we have esteemed him plagued, Smitten of God, and afflicted.
5And he is pierced for our transgressions, Bruised for our iniquities, The chastisement of our peace [is] on him, And by his bruise there is healing to us.
6All of us like sheep have wandered, Each to his own way we have turned, And Jehovah hath caused to meet on him, The punishment of us all.
7It hath been exacted, and he hath answered, And he openeth not his mouth, As a lamb to the slaughter he is brought, And as a sheep before its shearers is dumb, And he openeth not his mouth.
8By restraint and by judgment he hath been taken, And of his generation who doth meditate, That he hath been cut off from the land of the living? By the transgression of My people he is plagued,
9And it appointeth with the wicked his grave, And with the rich [are] his high places, Because he hath done no violence, Nor [is] deceit in his mouth.
10And Jehovah hath delighted to bruise him, He hath made him sick, If his soul doth make an offering for guilt, He seeth seed -- he prolongeth days, And the pleasure of Jehovah in his hand doth prosper.
11Of the labour of his soul he seeth -- he is satisfied, Through his knowledge give righteousness Doth the righteous one, My servant, to many, And their iniquities he doth bear.
12Therefore I give a portion to him among the many, And with the mighty he apportioneth spoil, Because that he exposed to death his soul, And with transgressors he was numbered, And he the sin of many hath borne, And for transgressors he intercedeth.
Nineveh said:
There's no point in adding an 'ever' to forever, it seems that you just dont want to be open to aion not actually meaning what you infer it to
Except..."if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." So I guess John and Paul got it wrong. Good thing you happened along, huh?
Well everyone will bow their knee and every tongue will confess....
I'm of the firm belief the work has been done to cover everyone, but also of the firm belief not everyone wants saved. God isn't a kidnapper with an unhealthy view of love.[/QUOTE]
Why wouldnt everyone -once they have a knowledge of the truth- not want it??? I'm amazed at those who think it would somehow be possible to still reject God....you say that God isnt a kidnapper - he wouldnt have to be!! And the helathy view of love is to what........throw people into a pit of endless burning fire.....righto...... :doh:
Er....this is the weakest answer i've seen for the verse "God is the saviour of all men, especially of believers", you havent even attempted to address the verse itself! It sounds like God is the saviour of everyone - not just of believers but especially of believers, why would it or how could it mean anything different? If it meant only those who believe like the way you somehow seem to interpret it then the word 'especially' wouldnt be in there,
Have another go
Aimiel said:
Then you're another who cant address the verse, the reason I believe that all men will be saved is because its what it says in the word....
"God is the saviour of all men, especially of those who believe", it doesnt say "only"...its a thorn in the side of ET because noone so far has been able to address this verse without twisting the definition of 'especially' or trying to just get rid of the word altogether, even PK couldnt manage this, you havent either........
whats more Jesus said he died as a ransom for all to be testified in due time, what you are on about with Jesus showing off if all are reconciled is beyond me, and how the heck is it 'pointless' if all men are redeemed? Bizarre.....it would make Jesus 100% successful in his mission and his sacrifice would have been far from pointless......
As to your own opinions about what people deserve in the afterlife if they arent saved here is one of the more sickening aspects of this doctrine you hold to, you'll justify endless agony for other people after believeing yourself to be spared the agonies........ :nono:
The story of the rich man was a parable, you read it literally and it makes no sense, if the rich man was literally burning and on fire do you seriously think he would ask Lazarus to dip his finger in water to cool his tongue????!!!! Do you think he'd capable of coherent speech at all and ot just screaming "AAAARRRRGGGHHHHH"......?! Yet again the message of this story about how beingf selfish and not compassionate towards those who have less is lost amidst all the literal hellfire preach..........
If you believe that God is incapable of or unwilling to save each person then its your perogative, I believe that ALL things are possible with God, that in the fullness of time all people will be ransomed as the testimony predicts, god knew that left to man it would be impossible for him - hence his answer to the disciples when they asked about who could be saved, you both believe that God cant accomplish his own will and that all things are in fact not possible for God....
Aethril,
Mt 13:13
This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
Oh, it matters Aethril.
They spent their whole life with the burden of sin weighing them down. Not knowing the peace that passes understanding. Not having life and having it more abundantly. Not having the Spirit of God residing inside of them. Not having a relationship with the Father through His Son. And according to their judgment, they may very well NOT experience life in the Kingdom Age.
But apparently none of these things matter much to you. Could it be that Jesus is simply your “get out of hell free” card?
Mt 13:13
This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
Oh, it matters Aethril.
They spent their whole life with the burden of sin weighing them down. Not knowing the peace that passes understanding. Not having life and having it more abundantly. Not having the Spirit of God residing inside of them. Not having a relationship with the Father through His Son. And according to their judgment, they may very well NOT experience life in the Kingdom Age.
But apparently none of these things matter much to you. Could it be that Jesus is simply your “get out of hell free” card?
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