BRXII Battle talk

[Servo]

Why don't you suspend your views for a moment and consider the implication of the word destruction in the below Scripture?



1Co 5:5 -
deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

It would have to be assumed that we are talking about a future event here. In context we can see that it is Paul talking about a member in the church and how to handle them when they lead an immoral life.

1 Corinthians 5

1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Follow the bouncing ball, C.M.

"That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one, all things in Christ...and you, chosen (singled out) beforehand in accordance with the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will."

"He has made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. And you too, who in Him were made heirs, having been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him whose might carries out in everything the design of His own will."

Ta panta= the all things. The all things in the heavens, the all things in the earth, and you who once were dead in trespasses and sins.That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one, the ta pavnte en Christ.

Ta pavnte = in the absolute sense of the whole of creation, the universe. Of everything in heaven and earth that is in need of uniting and redeeming.

Did John the Baptist really baptise all the people on earth in one day? We are still waiting for your answer Zadok. A simple, direct answer of yes or no is all the question requires.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Dont you think that with something this crucial you'd be crystal clear one way or another? What do you think it means when it says that 'death and hell' are thrown in there? How can that be literal? If the last enemy to be destroyed is death then how can there be people suffering the "second death" if that translates as being eternally tormented?

No reason to be crystal clear. Revelations is full of symbolism and it can be very difficult to tell the diference betweem allegory and literal.

That having been said, there is a hell right now that is not the lake of fire. It is the hell of the old testament. That hell and physical death will be cast into the fire meaning that there will be no more use for either. The second death is never refered to as being cast into the lake. In fact the lake of fire is refered to as the second death from which there is no return. Whatever the lake turns out to be, real or literal, there is a place reserved by God for people who reject Him. He will honour their wishes and let them spend eternity without Him.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Why don't you suspend your views for a moment and consider the implication of the word destruction in the below Scripture?

1Co 5:5 -
deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Have you ever seen somebody who has been strung out on meth for a while. Their teeth are rotted out of their head, their bodies are shriveled and week and their eyes either haunted or crazy?

Have you ever seen somebody hooked on alcahol? Their faces have a constant red tint to them because of the damaged vlood vessels. Their livers are glogged with fat.

Have you ever seen the HBO special where they interviewed the street walkers? They are beat up by their tricks and pimps. Their bodies bear the scars of a hard hard life.

In all these cases, the damage to the body is physical, its real, and it lasts the rest of their life. Their bodies are destroyed to the point where many die. Some see what their life has become and turn to God and their spirit is saved, even if their body never recovers.

The point Paul is trying to make is that people who choose to live for the pleasures of the body frequently find their body destroyed by the very pleasures they sought. If they see the error of their ways their spirit can be saved.

Destroyed in this sense is similar to when we say Denver destroyed Arizona in Sunday's game. Did Denver destroy Arizona? No, Denver won by a wide margin. Paul is not saying that the body is destroyed as in nothing left. On the other hand, the meth addict will never have their teeth back, the alcholic may have to try to get a new liver and the prostitue may die of aids.

Turn people over to their lusts and in the ruin of their depravity they discover their need for Jesus.

 

[Aimiel]

when examined in light of other scriptures God being the saviour of all men especially believers makes perfect common sense...

Yes, it does, as do all Scriptures, when examined in the light. God is The Savior of All Men, though not all men are saved. What makes you think that all men will be saved? That's what doesn't make any sense. If all are (eventually) saved, what would the point of Jesus dying be? To show off? God sent His Son to die because there was no other way that men might be saved. Jesus, Himself, prayed earnestly that He might not have to die. Was it truly pointless for Him to die, or did He die because the wages of sin is death, and Jesus had to literally take the punishment for sin (even though we know that He never committed any)?

...what doesnt make sense is people being hideously tortured for endless years for no purpose - no good - and no constructive reason....

That's your opinion. God doesn't have to meet with your approval or understanding to do a thing, and if He did, that would make you God, and not Him. He prepared hell for Satan and the other fallen angels. Adam brought death upon all men by his sin (being the father of all). That death is the 'marker' if you will to delineate a man's life. What he does from the time he's 'accountable' for his actions (Adam was created accountable, since God said, "But of the tree...") and all men who achieve that accountability are held responsible for their actions. Being as men disobey God, without excuse (there is no excuse for sin) their punishment (as far as I'm concerned) is certainly less than what they deserve. I believe that death, then eternal punishment is good, compared to being 'snuffed' out of existence.

I simply can't justify Jesus' description of the rich man in hell with discipline, nor do I believe for one minute that casting body and soul into a lake of fire would be required to simply 'snuff' someone out of existence or put them into some imagined 'eternal separation' from God. One is separated from God only by their own choice. If we want, we can be just as close to God as we desire; but being separate from Him is merely the consequence of our sin (selfish desire). I believe Scripture, but only in the full light of day provided by the rest of Scripture, and that light doesn't show God as forgiving sin without Jesus' Blood being applied; and the decision to apply That Blood to one's life must come in this life, not after death. After one dies, there is no more repentance.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Have you ever seen somebody hooked on alcahol? Their faces have a constant red tint to them because of the damaged vlood vessels. Their livers are glogged with fat.

Just look at any recent picture of BillyBob for example.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

The point Paul is trying to make is that people who choose to live for the pleasures of the body frequently find their body destroyed by the very pleasures they sought. If they see the error of their ways their spirit can be saved.

:thumb:

 

[Nineveh]

It's hardly awesome.....that whole "psycho chef" segment is a total misconception of what universalism encompasses, it totally misses the mark on many levels, universalism doesnt say that God "forces" people to live with him against their will, it declares that once men have a knowledge of the truth they would do so willingly...

And Paul says, "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen."

comparing this to a chef who makes muffins that people may or may not want to eat doesnt make any sense, for a start people might not be hungry so it wouldnt matter what type of gourmet delicacy was in front of them then would it...?

I'll have to stop replying to you here... your missing-the-forest-for-the-trees bit got old a long time ago. Let me know when you get some new material.

 

[PKevman]

Yes, it does, as do all Scriptures, when examined in the light. God is The Savior of All Men, though not all men are saved. What makes you think that all men will be saved? That's what doesn't make any sense. If all are (eventually) saved, what would the point of Jesus dying be? To show off? God sent His Son to die because there was no other way that men might be saved. Jesus, Himself, prayed earnestly that He might not have to die. Was it truly pointless for Him to die, or did He die because the wages of sin is death, and Jesus had to literally take the punishment for sin (even though we know that He never committed any)?That's your opinion. God doesn't have to meet with your approval or understanding to do a thing, and if He did, that would make you God, and not Him. He prepared hell for Satan and the other fallen angels. Adam brought death upon all men by his sin (being the father of all). That death is the 'marker' if you will to delineate a man's life. What he does from the time he's 'accountable' for his actions (Adam was created accountable, since God said, "But of the tree...") and all men who achieve that accountability are held responsible for their actions. Being as men disobey God, without excuse (there is no excuse for sin) their punishment (as far as I'm concerned) is certainly less than what they deserve. I believe that death, then eternal punishment is good, compared to being 'snuffed' out of existence.

I simply can't justify Jesus' description of the rich man in hell with discipline, nor do I believe for one minute that casting body and soul into a lake of fire would be required to simply 'snuff' someone out of existence or put them into some imagined 'eternal separation' from God. One is separated from God only by their own choice. If we want, we can be just as close to God as we desire; but being separate from Him is merely the consequence of our sin (selfish desire). I believe Scripture, but only in the full light of day provided by the rest of Scripture, and that light doesn't show God as forgiving sin without Jesus' Blood being applied; and the decision to apply That Blood to one's life must come in this life, not after death. After one dies, there is no more repentance.

Well said! :up:

 

[xavier47]

Yes, it does, as do all Scriptures, when examined in the light. God is The Savior of All Men, though not all men are saved. What makes you think that all men will be saved? .

Excuse me, I need to address this one...

That He is the Saviour of all men - as you just stated! Talk about obfuscation...

 

[Nineveh]

Excuse me, I need to address this one...

That He is the Saviour of all men - as you just stated! Talk about obfuscation...

Except: “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. ..."

It seems God is big enough to allow for those who really just don't want to be with Him not to be with Him.

 

[xavier47]

Big enough? Again, the only view that supports eternal torment is the open view... I don't believe one can believe unto salvation - I believe Jesus was referring to all of mankind being born into unbelief... It's the Sacrifice that saves, not our belief... It's a shame that more people are apt to defend eternal torment rather than believing that God is 'big enough' to save the whole of mankind...

 

[xavier47]

Actually, even the open view does not justify the endless torture of billions of souls...

 

[Nineveh]

Big enough? Again, the only view that supports eternal torment is the open view...

Well... and God... unless you don't believe forever and ever means forever and ever that is.

I don't believe one can believe unto salvation - I believe Jesus was referring to all of mankind being born into unbelief... It's the Sacrifice that saves, not our belief...

Except..."if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." So I guess John and Paul got it wrong. Good thing you happened along, huh?

It's a shame that more people are apt to defend eternal torment rather than believing that God is 'big enough' to save the whole of mankind...

I'm of the firm belief the work has been done to cover everyone, but also of the firm belief not everyone wants saved. God isn't a kidnapper with an unhealthy view of love.

 

[Nineveh]

Actually, even the open view does not justify the endless torture of billions of souls...

You are right. As far as I know, no OVer tries to "justify endless torture". Or were you just getting sloppy with your terms?

 

[xavier47]

Well... and God... unless you don't believe forever and ever means forever and ever that is.



Except..."if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." So I guess John and Paul got it wrong. Good thing you happened along, huh?



I'm of the firm belief the work has been done to cover everyone, but also of the firm belief not everyone wants saved. God isn't a kidnapper with an unhealthy view of love.

Great job of defending your doctrine... Aionos means 'forever and ever' ad nauseam, blah, blah, blah... This debate has been going on for centuries - thank God YOU came along and set things straight, eh? And tell me what Paul means when He says Christ is the Saviour of the world, ESPECIALLY those who believe...

 

[xavier47]

"A kidnapper with an unhealthy view of love..."

Hmm, by WHOSE standards?

 

[bigbang123]

this bears repeating until it sinks in

Originally Posted by bigbang123

my opinion

PastorKevin's position - biblical and one of the biggest obstacles to faith in the bible being divinely authored. he fully embraces the despicable teaching of the bible on the subject.

Logos_X position - biblically based wishful grasping at hemeneutical straws. he unsuccessfully trys to explain why the supposedly misunderstood teaching of scriptures is
not as despicable as it appears.

they are both victims of trying to derive a coherent, gracious and righteous theology from the largely noble but flawed work of men (THE BIBLE).

and before any christian responds to this - read post #380 first.

 

[CabinetMaker]

this bears repeating until it sinks in

Originally Posted by bigbang123

my opinion

PastorKevin's position - biblical and one of the biggest obstacles to faith in the bible being divinely authored. he fully embraces the despicable teaching of the bible on the subject.

Logos_X position - biblically based wishful grasping at hemeneutical straws. he unsuccessfully trys to explain why the supposedly misunderstood teaching of scriptures is
not as despicable as it appears.

and before any christian responds to this - read post #380 first.

What, pray tell, are you hoping sinks in? The fact that you hav rejected Jesus and His father? The fact that you do not believe the Bible holds any truth?

 

[bigbang123]

What, pray tell, are you hoping sinks in? The fact that you hav rejected Jesus and His father? The fact that you do not believe the Bible holds any truth?

not true - is contains some truth, some error, some myth, some fact

there are 31,273 verses in the whole bible - i don't disagree with all of it

verses i especially agree with

Matthew 5:44-46
44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?

Proverbs 15
1 A gentle answer turns away wrath,
but a harsh word stirs up anger.

1 Cor 13

Psalm 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.

etc