BRXII Battle talk

[Aimiel]

Is it not funny how the pendulum swings? In 30AD, the zealots were too hyped about the law, making it more than what God meant it to be, but missing the whole point: men are without hope, guilty of sin, convicted and ready to be sentenced. Today, they're too hyped about grace, making it more than what God has declared, through His Own Son, Who said, "Whosoever believeth in Me," and not, "Every soul that has ever lived." They miss the whole point of grace: peace with God is available, but must be acquired in this life. I guess I'm glad to be in the middle of the road, by sights clearly set upon The Lord, instead of riding the pendulum. . :freak:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

"You did not choose Me, I chose you!"

Sing it HERE

C.M. please lead the singing.

Do you have anything "on topic" to add?

 

[Aimiel]

absolutely, for eternal torment to be true then God's anger and wrath outweighs his love,
"love never fails"......either this is true or (eternal torment) is true and its false

Following your child-like logic, then, love already failed, big time, when Jesus died upon the cross, for He asked The Father: "...let this cup pass from Me..." when Paul prayed that the thorn be removed from his flesh, and all those times when I prayed for universalists: "Dear Lord, open their eyes to The Truth, so that they may know Your Word, and what It means." :think:

 

[Kimberlyann]

Originally Posted by CabinetMaker

To a tribe living deep in the Amazon with no outside contact, who have never heard the gospel, will the they be measured by the same standard? I don't know. The Bible is silent on this issue. Believing that God is just and Holy and knowing that God has written His law upon their hearts (they are a law unto themselves), I believe that God will judge them accordingly.

Again, I do not know, the Bible is silent. I tend to believe that my Amazon tribe is measured by a different standard than those who have heard the Gospel.

----------------------




yes, in terms of final punishment the bible does speaks of some getting many blows and some getting fewer blows - but if hell is forever, in real terms that means for some the eternal torment oven will be set on low and for some the eternal torment oven will be set on high.

"And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes,

but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more." Luke 12:47-48



Just what are we reading in these verses? Apparently the one who sins in ignorance gets less of a flogging than the one who knew his master's will and didn't do it. That suggest to me that whatever hell or the lake of fire is, it isn't permanent.

 

[bigbang123]

To a tribe living deep in the Amazon with no outside contact, who have never heard the gospel, will the they be measured by the same standard? I don't know. The Bible is silent on this issue. Believing that God is just and Holy and knowing that God has written His law upon their hearts (they are a law unto themselves), I believe that God will judge them accordingly....

...Again, I do not know, the Bible is silent. I tend to believe that my Amazon tribe is measured by a different standard than those who have heard the Gospel....

here is what the bible says about your noble savages along with everyone else


Isaiah 24

The LORD's Devastation of the Earth

1 See, the LORD is going to lay waste the earth
and devastate it;
he will ruin its face
and scatter its inhabitants-
2 it will be the same
for priest as for people,
for master as for servant,
for mistress as for maid,
for seller as for buyer,
for borrower as for lender,
for debtor as for creditor.

3 The earth will be completely laid waste
and totally plundered.
The LORD has spoken this word.

4 The earth dries up and withers,
the world languishes and withers,
the exalted of the earth languish.

5 The earth is defiled by its people;
they have disobeyed the laws,
violated the statutes
and broken the everlasting covenant.

6 Therefore a curse consumes the earth;
its people must bear their guilt.
Therefore earth's inhabitants are burned up,
and very few are left.

7 The new wine dries up and the vine withers;
all the merrymakers groan.

8 The gaiety of the tambourines is stilled,
the noise of the revelers has stopped,
the joyful harp is silent.

9 No longer do they drink wine with a song;
the beer is bitter to its drinkers.

10 The ruined city lies desolate;
the entrance to every house is barred.

11 In the streets they cry out for wine;
all joy turns to gloom,
all gaiety is banished from the earth.

12 The city is left in ruins,
its gate is battered to pieces.

13 So will it be on the earth
and among the nations,
as when an olive tree is beaten,
or as when gleanings are left after the grape harvest.

14 They raise their voices, they shout for joy;
from the west they acclaim the LORD's majesty.

15 Therefore in the east give glory to the LORD;
exalt the name of the LORD, the God of Israel,
in the islands of the sea.

16 From the ends of the earth we hear singing:
"Glory to the Righteous One."
But I said, "I waste away, I waste away!
Woe to me!
The treacherous betray!
With treachery the treacherous betray!"

17 Terror and pit and snare await you,
O people of the earth.

18 Whoever flees at the sound of terror
will fall into a pit;
whoever climbs out of the pit
will be caught in a snare.
The floodgates of the heavens are opened,
the foundations of the earth shake.

19 The earth is broken up,
the earth is split asunder,
the earth is thoroughly shaken.

20 The earth reels like a drunkard,
it sways like a hut in the wind;
so heavy upon it is the guilt of its rebellion
that it falls—never to rise again.

21 In that day the LORD will punish
the powers in the heavens above
and the kings on the earth below.

22 They will be herded together
like prisoners bound in a dungeon;
they will be shut up in prison
and be punished after many days.

23 The moon will be abashed, the sun ashamed;
for the LORD Almighty will reign
on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem,
and before its elders, gloriously.


romans 3

9What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;

10as it is written,
"THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
13"THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,"
"THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS";
14"WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS";
15"THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
16DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
17AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN."
18"THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES."


so, my contention is - the bible is not silent on the subject. it's just your sense of human decency will not allow you to hear what it is clearly saying. i understand your dilemna but it's only a dilemna for those who believe the bible is divinely authored.

 

[bigbang123]

"And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes,

but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more." Luke 12:47-48



Just what are we reading in these verses? Apparently the one who sins in ignorance gets less of a flogging than the one who knew his master's will and didn't do it. That suggest to me that whatever hell or the lake of fire is, it isn't permanent.

remember what i said before when referring to both PastorKevin and Logos_X

they are both victims of trying to derive a coherent, gracious and righteous theology from the largely noble but flawed work of men (THE BIBLE).

 

[red77]

Following your child-like logic, then, love already failed, big time, when Jesus died upon the cross, for He asked The Father: "...let this cup pass from Me..." when Paul prayed that the thorn be removed from his flesh, and all those times when I prayed for universalists: "Dear Lord, open their eyes to The Truth, so that they may know Your Word, and what It means." :think:

What?! you think logic needs to be in the realm of rocket science? It really is that simple, love never fails - do you believe that? Do you believe there is an end to God's love? As I said in reply to your earlier post - you dont believe that God is the saviour of all men especially those who believe but you cant rebut or refute the verse
You cant believe the verse that says that Jesus died as a ransom for ALL men to be testified to in due time because you think only a fraction will be ransomed,
You also dont believe that all things are possible for God because your doctrine dictates that not all will be saved or ransomed but rather that many will be pointlessly tortured for eternity - something which you in your own opinion think is deserved (for other people)
Yet God said in a direct answer to the disciples question about who could be saved
that "with man this is impossible but with God all things are possible
Perhaps it's you who needs to open your eyes....? :think:

 

[CabinetMaker]

here is what the bible says about your noble savages along with everyone else
10as it is written,
"THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
13"THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,"
"THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS";
14"WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS";
15"THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
16DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
17AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN."
18"THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES."


so, my contention is - the bible is not silent on the subject. it's just your sense of human decency will not allow you to hear what it is clearly saying. i understand your dilemna but it's only a dilemna for those who believe the bible is divinely authored.

I never said they were rightous, I said the Bible was silent on their fate. Consider what Paul says about the law. There is no sin apart from the law. So these peple who have never heard the law cannot sin under that law. Paul also says that the law is written upon their hearts, that they are a law unto themselves. So in a society where they all live for each other because that is the only way they can survive, they are doing what is good (in my opinion). They will not be judged under the law of Moses, they will be judged under the law written on their heart.

 

[bigbang123]

I never said they were rightous, I said the Bible was silent on their fate. Consider what Paul says about the law. There is no sin apart from the law. So these peple who have never heard the law cannot sin under that law. Paul also says that the law is written upon their hearts, that they are a law unto themselves. So in a society where they all live for each other because that is the only way they can survive, they are doing what is good (in my opinion). They will not be judged under the law of Moses, they will be judged under the law written on their heart.

according to the bible - their fate - the soul that sins will die - i don't believe any noble savages have lived sinless lives.

according to the bible - the second death is the fate of all whose name is not in the book of life

according to the bible - jesus is the only way (period)

acts 4:12
"And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

 

[Aimiel]

What?! you think logic needs to be in the realm of rocket science?

Actually, to be precise or predictive, it does. Obviously you've never studied it. I have several old college texts (from the early 1970's) if you'd like to have them.

It really is that simple, love never fails - do you believe that?

In the light of all the other Scriptures, and applying common sense (a rule I never leave my bed without) yes.

Do you believe there is an end to God's love?

Again, you're 'scripture-twisting,' and trying to apply the rules of logic without common sense or even giving the least bit of consideration to the rest of The Holy Bible. :duh:

As I said in reply to your earlier post - you dont believe that God is the saviour of all men especially those who believe but you cant rebut or refute the verse

I don't have to, since common sense always applies, and those who choose to shall remain clueless.

You cant believe the verse that says that Jesus died as a ransom for ALL men to be testified to in due time because you think only a fraction will be ransomed,

I believe The Words of The Lord, Who, Himself, said that many were called, but few were chosen. Why don't you?

Yet God said in a direct answer to the disciples question about who could be saved, that, "with man this is impossible but with God all things are possible..."

God won't violate His Own Word, even though you've decided (long, long ago) that you don't mind doing so.

 

[Redfin]

"Following your child-like logic..."

Matthew 18:3 - "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven."

Sounds like you've been complimented, Kim, although unintentionally! :think:

And you well deserve it! :thumb:

 

[Kimberlyann]

remember what i said before when referring to both PastorKevin and Logos_X

Yes....I remember.

Never doubt Love

 

[Kimberlyann]

Matthew 18:3 - "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven."

Sounds like you've been complimented, Kim, although unintentionally! :think:

And you well deserve it! :thumb:

Thanks.

 

[Aimiel]

Sounds like you've been complimented, Kim, although unintentionally! And you well deserve it!

I hesitated to say, "childish," because of all the whining and long-winded posts of meaningless drivel regarding satire, so I chose to say, "child-like," hoping the point wouldn't be lost, and that the courtesy might be appreciated, recognizing that I had a perfect opportunity to 'poke fun' to bring light to a perceived flaw without appearing judgemental (IMHO that is the reasoning behind satire) but alas, it seems even the clueless are more clueless than I would have liked to imagine. Well, maybe in time, repentance will spring forth. One can only hope.

 

[red77]

Actually, to be precise or predictive, it does. Obviously you've never studied it. I have several old college texts (from the early 1970's) if you'd like to have them.

No i havent studied it, i dont need to be a rocket scientist however to work out that 2 X 2 = 4.......

In the light of all the other Scriptures, and applying common sense (a rule I never leave my bed without) yes.

Then if love never fails and God being love then I find it more than common sense to presume he is capable of accomplishing his will of having all men come to the truth - in light of other scriptures such as God will not cast off forever, his being the ransom for all to be testified in due time, his being the saviour of all men especially of those who believe, his multitude of tender mercies etc etc,

Again, you're 'scripture-twisting,' and trying to apply the rules of logic without common sense or even giving the least bit of consideration to the rest of The Holy Bible. :duh:

what a ridiculous statement, there's been an abundance of verses from the rest of the Bible given but even if this was one verse alone it says all it needs to say, either the ransom will be testified to or it wont.......thats common sense.....

I don't have to, since common sense always applies, and those who choose to shall remain clueless.

Then its you who will remain clueless if you cant acknowledge this verse for what it plainly says, you cant refute it so you choose to ignore it because it undermines your doctrine along with an abundance of other passages, sticking ones head in the sand doesnt qualify as common sense

I believe The Words of The Lord, Who, Himself, said that many were called, but few were chosen. Why don't you?God won't violate His Own Word, even though you've decided (long, long ago) that you don't mind doing so.

You dont believe that Jesus's ransom will be testified to so why not? This passage you quote doesnt even remotely indicate ET and it certainly doesnt say that All things are not possible with God, you prefer to place doctrine over the power of God and you're saying that all things are not possible with God which goes against what Jesus said himself........
why do you not mind doing that?

 

[red77]

I hesitated to say, "childish," because of all the whining and long-winded posts of meaningless drivel regarding satire, so I chose to say, "child-like," hoping the point wouldn't be lost, and that the courtesy might be appreciated, recognizing that I had a perfect opportunity to 'poke fun' to bring light to a perceived flaw without appearing judgemental (IMHO that is the reasoning behind satire) but alas, it seems even the clueless are more clueless than I would have liked to imagine. Well, maybe in time, repentance will spring forth. One can only hope.

"there's none so blind as those who cannot see"....

 

[belboy87]

Ok... I believe that both sides have established that we BOTH have Biblical and scriptural verses to fall back on.

Let's place that aside for a moment, and suspend that "defensive net" of Bible cutting and pasting... I go to a verse in Tim, you go to one in Rev. And the circle continues.

Let's get down to basics.

Can you, who believe in Eternal Torment, claim that it is LOGICAL, that God would send 90% of humanity to burn eternal?

Can you claim that it meets the requirements of common sense, that He tells us to love our enemies, yet He burns His forever?

Can you justify, as a rational being, eternal torment for a short life-span of bad choices?

If you can say yes to these, then you are beyond any more persuance of rational debate....

 

[Zadok]

I never said they were rightous, I said the Bible was silent on their fate.

C.M. you must promise to keep this a secret, but the Scriptures are far from silent on the fate of the heathen.

"The whole earth, from end to end, will remember and come back to the Lord. Yes, the entire human family will worship in His Presence, for the Eternal reigns, Lord of all nations."

As I live, ALL THE EARTH WILL BE FILLED WITH THE GLORY OF THE LORD.

*** "I am the living Lord, whose glory must spread wide as the earth." Knox Translation

"ALL THE ENDS OF THE WORLD shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and ALL THE FAMILIES OF THE NATIONS shall worship before You and bow themselves before You.

*** "the entire human family will worship Him." Taylor

"...for the kingdom is the Lord's; for the Eternal reigns, Lord of all nations."

Before Him shall bow all that go down to the dust. And he that cannot keep his soul alive.

To Him alone shall bow down all who sleep in the earth; Before him shall bend all who go down into the dust.

"Yet, all who are dying shall acknowledge His supremacy."

"Dying peoples bow before him."

"Prosperous peoples sacrifice to him and worship."

"Let all the earth reverence Jehovah: Let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. The Lord brings the counsel of the nations to nothing, he brings to nothing what the nations plan. The counsel of the Lord stands for ever, the thoughts of his heart to the farthest age (what he plans will last from age to age)"

Pause a while and know that I am God. I will be exalted among the nations, exalted upon the earth." Psl. 46:10

"In the farthest corners of the earth the glorious acts of God shall startle everyone, You make the morning dawn and the evening sunset to shout for joy."

"You visit the earth...and greatly enrich it with the river of God, which is full of water (You have prepared the sacred river, filling it with water...the river of God shall not run dry!"

To You shall all flesh come (all mankind will approach You)...by terrible, dread deeds in righteousness You will answer us with deliverance, our delivering God; who are the hope of all the ends of the earth, and of them that are in the sea.

 

[red77]

Ok... I believe that both sides have established that we BOTH have Biblical and scriptural verses to fall back on.

Let's place that aside for a moment, and suspend that "defensive net" of Bible cutting and pasting... I go to a verse in Tim, you go to one in Rev. And the circle continues.

Let's get down to basics.

Can you, who believe in Eternal Torment, claim that it is LOGICAL, that God would send 90% of humanity to burn eternal?

Can you claim that it meets the requirements of common sense, that He tells us to love our enemies, yet He burns His forever?

Can you justify, as a rational being, eternal torment for a short life-span of bad choices?

If you can say yes to these, then you are beyond any more persuance of rational debate....

no, i couldnt answer yes to any of those and I totally see your point, I honestly think that the term 'eternal torment' doesnt actually sink in to people anyway, it just becomes this abstract notion which is incomprehendable.....I couldnt in all honesty see God torturing someone for 5 minutes without any purpose or intent behind it, its the most despairing/horrific/loveless and vile concept ever invented by man, the gospel is good news - not incredibly bad news for most and great for a few.......

 

[Aimiel]

No i havent studied (logic)...

And here I thought that I had made it obvious that I realized this. :nono:

what a ridiculous statement, there's been an abundance of verses from the rest of the Bible given but even if this was one verse alone it says all it needs to say, either the ransom will be testified to or it wont.......thats common sense.....

Gee; why didn't God consult you, He could've saved all that blood and bother, and just inspired that one single verse. :duh:

Then its you who will remain clueless if you cant acknowledge this verse for what it plainly says, you cant refute it so you choose to ignore it because it undermines your doctrine along with an abundance of other passages, sticking ones head in the sand doesnt qualify as common sense

You've just described universalist's, not those who hold to traditional orthodoxy. The verse is plain, but only to those who are in the light, examine it under the light of other scriptures and keep common sense in mind. Why can't you see that? Oh :doh: that's right, you're in the dark... I forgot.