BRXII Battle talk

[belboy87]

Also, something else that I would like to point out...

Before you believed the truth of the Bible, what was your point of reference?

If I am an unsaved, never heard the gospel person, sitting on the sidewalk... and someone comes up to me and says "God loves you and wants to save you from hell." That would be my point of reference.

YOU HAVE TO HAVE A STARTING PLACE. And the starting place, because you DON'T YET KNOW THE BIBLE, is ALWAYS a logical starting point... a "hey! this makes sense!" starting point.

Universalism DOES NOT base itself off of emotion or logic. However, in order to introduce Universalism, one must have a POINT OF REFERENCE. If your theology does not make sense, then you have just found a good starting point.

The only reason that we appeal to the emotions and logic is not to prove Universalism to ourselves, but to show you that it FITS. And once you see that it fits, then you have just bought that pair of glasses that filters out the "menace" of the Bible, that you have accumulated over the years....

It's like being able to see only black and white, and we want to describe what it's like to see colors. We're not sentimental for OUR sake. We're describing these colors so that when you agree to the operation, it won't be so scary to see something new.

Change is always scary.

What I'm saying is this. You began believing the Bible by walking through logical steps. (God is Holy, God wrote the Bible, the Bible must be Holy.... ect...)

We are walking you through those SAME STEPS before you are ready to get the proper perspective to understand the above scripture.

It's just like an unbeliever.... he can't apreciate or understand the Bible until he's saved. You can't apreciate or understand verses like those above, until you get perspective.

I already have your perspective. It's the one that I was raised in.

 

[belboy87]

15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

Well then, you better be "in Christ". :duh:

Didn't know that you were "in Adam"

Was your mom gay?

:cloud9:

 

[Ecumenicist]

Logos_x (like all of Universalism) base their rejection of the gospel on their own personal feelings. They humanistically determine that hell cannot be real and eternal because they themselves don't think Hell is just. And to justify their rejection of the clear message of the Bible they pick at a word here or there. They say clear verses and chapters mean something other than what they say. They remind me of Calvinists or preterists distorting the clear, simple to understand gospel and they turn it into a complicated story that only they seem to be able to see or understand.

Notice these excerpts from BR XII posted by logos_x.....

"I simply do not believe that God wants an eternal Hell"

"...ask yourself: What GOOD is the doctrine of eternal torment?"

"Do you honestly think..."

"I should think."

"Seems to me..."

"I believe..."

"I don't think God is an idiot. But the dogma of eternal torment makes Him out to be."

"Well...I think that God is the smart one and the serpent is a liar."

"I believe the truth is that we die."

"See...I think that God is smart enough..."

"I believe, again, that God prevents man from eating of the tree of life..."

"I think that's pretty twisted!"

"I don't know."

"In my view, Christ came to destroy all the works of the adversary!"

"It is my contention that He didn't create one..."

"That has been my contention from the beginning of this Battle.."

"I believe..."

"I believe your view..."

"Now, I believe that the death of this divine Jesus was sufficient to take away the sins of the world..."​

Logos_x side of the debate reminds me of a song I once heard....
:singer:
Feelings, nothing more than feelings,
Feelings, wo-o-o feelings,
Wo-o-o, Feelings, nothing more than feelings.

pastorkevin, on the other hand, preached the gospel! He wrote his own material and he preached the gospel! Pastorkevin won the debate in round #2 and then crushed logos and universalism in round #3.

pastorkevein won the debate with the following paragraph...OK... Ok... so it was Jesus who really won the debate but He used Pastorkevin brilliantly to squelch Universalism for good except for the willingly ignorant.

I don't believe in eternal torment because "I think" that's they way God should have made things. Eternal torment awaits those that reject God because thats the way God says it will be, case closed!

Gee Knight, you rip him for using outside materials, and then you rip him for stating
his own views. And you don't credit him for the many Scriptural references he
did make supporting his argument.

I suspect, having been around as long as he has, Logos expected nothing more.
I for one think he made some brilliant arguments, and I for one think that "thinking"
is a good thing, something more TOL'ers should try for themselves some time.

 

[belboy87]

Universalism lost.

..... ROTFL

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Didn't know that you were "in Adam"

Was your mom gay?

:cloud9:

:wave2: See ya fagboy87. :flamer:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I for one think he made some brilliant arguments

How do you know?

How much did Logos_x even write??? :idunno:

 

[Kimberlyann]

And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, (Hebrews 9:27)

When God's judgments are in the earth the people will learn righteousness.

With my soul I have desired You in the night, Yes, by my spirit within me I will seek You early; For when Your judgments are in the earth, The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. (Isaiah 26:9)

End of story.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

End of story.

Oooops maybe not???

Maybe you should have kept reading?

Isaiah 26:9 With my soul I have desired You in the night, Yes, by my spirit within me I will seek You early; For when Your judgments are in the earth, The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. 10 Let grace be shown to the wicked, Yet he will not learn righteousness; In the land of uprightness he will deal unjustly, And will not behold the majesty of the LORD. 11 LORD, when Your hand is lifted up, they will not see. But they will see and be ashamed For their envy of people; Yes, the fire of Your enemies shall devour them. 12 LORD, You will establish peace for us, For You have also done all our works in us. 13 O LORD our God, masters besides You Have had dominion over us; But by You only we make mention of Your name. 14 They are dead, they will not live; They are deceased, they will not rise. Therefore You have punished and destroyed them, And made all their memory to perish.​

"They are dead, they will not live"

"They are deceased, they will not rise."

Ouch!

Kimberlyann, your nasty habit of ripping verses out of context comes back to bite you yet again.

 

[Kimberlyann]

Oooops maybe not???

Maybe you should have kept reading?

Isaiah 26:9 With my soul I have desired You in the night, Yes, by my spirit within me I will seek You early; For when Your judgments are in the earth, The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. 10 Let grace be shown to the wicked, Yet he will not learn righteousness; In the land of uprightness he will deal unjustly, And will not behold the majesty of the LORD. 11 LORD, when Your hand is lifted up, they will not see. But they will see and be ashamed For their envy of people; Yes, the fire of Your enemies shall devour them. 12 LORD, You will establish peace for us, For You have also done all our works in us. 13 O LORD our God, masters besides You Have had dominion over us; But by You only we make mention of Your name. 14 They are dead, they will not live; They are deceased, they will not rise. Therefore You have punished and destroyed them, And made all their memory to perish.​

"They are dead, they will not live"

"They are deceased, they will not rise."

Ouch!

Kimberlyann, your nasty habit of ripping verses out of context comes back to bite you yet again.

But we know the dead will rise again.
1 Corinthians 15:20-34
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For "He has put all things under His feet." F48 But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all. 29 Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? Why then are they baptized for the dead? 30 And why do we stand in jeopardy every hour? 31 I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. 32 If, in the manner of men, I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantage is it to me? If the dead do not rise, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!"


I guess we just interpret things differently.

 

[PKevman]

I would like to look at that in more detail. Can you tell me which post you addressed it in? (Sorry, but between Christmas and work I have had time only to scan the BR thread.)

Here it is: (It's in my 4th and final post brother)

A message of love:
God’s message is a message of love and hope. The sad thing is that Universalism calls God evil if the Bible is right about eternal punishment for unbelievers. This is the most wicked position of all! The sinful creature who rejected God and turned its back on Him is blaming HIM because of their spiritual condition? This is because Universalism clearly does not understand the utter hopelessness of man because of his sin. The emotion-driven question of: "Why would a loving God send helpless individuals for all eternity and torture them for no reason?" Is repeated OVER and OVER by Univeralists everywhere. (And Annihilationists for that matter). I have found so many times that the folks who are the most dogmatic about this are usually (not always, but usually) someone who has lost a close relative or friend that they were unsure of their salvation. This is one of the deceptive tricks of Universalism. It thrives on appealing to the emotions.

God told Adam in Genesis chapter 3 that it was BECAUSE of what HE HAD DONE that he was cursed. And that same curse passes to each one of us! Because of what I have done (as a sinner) I deserve to be judged and spend eternity in the Lake of Fire! Sinful wicked people have to get it out of their mind that they DESERVE anything. We don’t deserve Heaven! We don't DESERVE the death of the Holy and Perfect Son of God! If one person went to Heaven it would be to God’s praise and glory that He showed grace to that one. But the Bible says that all who believe will go! They are on the right path, they are in the right crowd, they are going through the right gate, and they will be in the right destination!

Romans 1 tells us even further why the objection of the Universalist that God is unfair is so wrong! The Universalist and the Annihlationist come along and say that God would not send someone to the Lake of Fire for all eternity who had not heard the name of Jesus Christ, that it wouldn’t be fair. The Bible says:

Romans 1:18-25

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

Close in on verse 20 there for just a moment, because it crystallizes this for us:

20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

They are without excuse. They have made their own decisions! We are not God. God doesn't force Himself on anyone!

Jeremiah 49:13
13 And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart.


One of my favorite quotes from John Macarthur is this:

“Now if men...and I want you to understand this, if men will accept the light they have, affirm that light, believe that light then I believe God will give them more light to bring them to the knowledge of Christ. And it’s important at this juncture to say this; nobody is ever saved short of faith in Jesus Christ. No one can be saved apart from Christ. “Neither is there salvation in (what?) any other.” Only in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore we must reach people with the name of Christ. You say, well what about those people who are off in some remote place? If they live up to the light they have I believe God will allow them to hear the message to be saved.”

Well put indeed brother John! If a person who has never heard the name of Jesus Christ will truly humble himself before God and seek God, God will make Himself known to that person! There are missionaries going all over the world right now and doing this work, and people are getting saved in remote places all over the world.

Praise God! He is not to be demeaned or talked badly about just because a group of PEOPLE decided they didn’t like something that was in His Word and wanted to change it! And make no mistake. That is exactly what has happened. The Universalist dogmatically asserts that the words in the Bible are translated wrongly. They will only accept verses that are translated in a way that agrees with their doctrine of Universal Salvation.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

But we know the dead will rise again.
1 Corinthians 15:20-34

The dead "in Christ".

It's right there in the verse for ya, but I can understand why you would want to ignore it because it obliterates Universalism.

 

[PKevman]

But we know the dead will rise again.
1 Corinthians 15:20-34
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For "He has put all things under His feet." F48 But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all. 29 Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? Why then are they baptized for the dead? 30 And why do we stand in jeopardy every hour? 31 I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. 32 If, in the manner of men, I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantage is it to me? If the dead do not rise, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!"


I guess we just interpret things differently.

It's far more than an interpretation difference Kimberly. Did you read my exposition of this text in the Battle Royale? It's pretty exciting stuff!

 

[Kimberlyann]

The dead "in Christ".

It's right there in the verse for ya, but I can understand why you would want to ignore it because it obliterates Universalism.

"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment. -Jesus (John 5:28-29 NASB)

We will all rise. Some to life some to judgment. I just don't believe judgment is permanent. I believe it is remedial. But you are welcome to believe what you want. I am only defending my own views. I could be wrong, but I sincerely hope I'm not.

God bless

 

[Kimberlyann]

It's far more than an interpretation difference Kimberly. Did you read my exposition of this text in the Battle Royale? It's pretty exciting stuff!

Sorry PK....I just can't get excited about the doctrine of eternal hell. Something about it just turns my stomach.

If I actually believed eternal fire awaited most of mankind I would not be able to see God as a kind and loving Father. And I would be a very sad girl.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Sorry PK....I just can't get excited about the doctrine of eternal hell. Something about it just turns my stomach.

If I actually believed eternal fire awaited most of mankind I would not be able to see God as a kind and loving Father. And I would be a very sad girl.

That is the perfect example of what I am talking about, Universalists reject the clear teaching in the Bible because they "feel" they know better than God. They "think" God should have done things otherwise. They "believe" they know better.

Universalism is feelings based.

 

[ChasClean]

15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

Well then, you better be "in Christ".

We are in Christ in the same way we are in Adam. Without our permission. Whether we know it or not. Because God wants it that way, whether you do or not.

 

[ChasClean]

One day everyone will know and believe they were in Adam. Whether they knew it in this age or not.

One day everone will know and believe they are in Christ. Whether they know it in this age or not.

 

[Kimberlyann]

That is the perfect example of what I am talking about, Universalists reject the clear teaching in the Bible because they "feel" they know better than God. They "think" God should have done things otherwise. They "believe" they know better.

Universalism is feelings based.

What are the two greatest commandments according to Jesus?

"'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." - Jesus (Matthew 22:37-39 NKJ)

How can God require me to love my neighbor and be OK with Him toasting them in the end. If you love someone you can't stand the thought of any harm coming to them. How can I be OK with that? I'm not, and if I'm wrong I will answer to God for it. But so be it. That's how I feel and I can't hide it from Him.

 

[ChasClean]

Universalism is feelings based.
Universalism is feelings based.
Universalism is feelings based.
Universalism is feelings based.
Universalism is feelings based.

Repeat a lie often enough...

 

[xavier47]

OK, lets get something straight O' Universalists, you are wearing on my patience to an all-time high.

I have had to warn you (as a group) several times for various reasons (i.e., spamming the board with dozens of identical threads, spamming the forum with links to universalist websites etc.) and the latest trend is the most disturbing. You cannot... I repeat... CANNOT use other peoples material and claim it as your own. This behavior is STRICTLY prohibited!

Logos_x completely ripped off other peoples material throughout the entire battle (especially in round #3) and we gave him a "pass" (against my own better judgment). And now I find folks here in the battle talk thread ripping off other people's writings as if it was their own. :nono: Is this the best you guys can do? Can't you write your own material? You guys are as pathetic as your crappy, wacked out, unbiblical theology you promote!

Let me tell you all.... if you are going to rip off pre-written material you will be banned without warning. End of story.

The above message was composed by me. :knight:

Man, what a vile, wicked thing we Ultimate Reconciliationists have been doing... SURELY deserving of being banned from this forum... You my friend are an idiot... PLEASE ban me...