BATTLE TALK ~ BRX (rounds 1 thru 3)

[Z Man]

Zman:

Steve could have done otherwise which is why it meant something to the drunk.
He could have beat the drunk to a pulp, stole his wallet, etc etc..
And the drunk could have hated Steve for interfering, but He later showed humility..and that is why It meant something to Steve. He was moved by Steve's consern,..knowing how often others mistreated Him and took advantage of Him. However Steve did not do this, even though he could have..

Would you rather have a woman choose you because she could do otherwise, or because she could not.? Would you rather choose yourself through her, with some remote control attached to her brain, or would you rather she have the true choice to reject you?

You do understand that in my analogy, Steve represents God, and we represent John, don't you? Yes, Steve/God does have a choice. He can leave us drunk, to drive off into the night where we would certainly die in a car crash. Or, in our cause, He can choose to save us. John/Us, on the otherhand, didn't have a choice. Well, we do, but our choice is to reject God. We don't want anything to do with him, just like John wanted nothing to do with Steve UNTIL Steve saved him. So it is with us. We don't choose to love God; He chooses to love us first. Then, we respond.

 

[Shadowx]

Zman..I already know about Calvinism.


God already chose all men, in that he has written the law into their conscience and has taken away any excuse. Men simply need to humble themselves to Him. Whether that means to be physically circumcised...or believe on Jesus Christ...

Romans 1 says God is working on everyone's heart already. Men simply refuse to submit to him, because Steve allows them to. Remember when Paul said men are without excuse because God has revealed IN them..? Calvinism gives them the ultimate excuse to reject God, God himself.

Romans 2 also declares:

Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Acts:

Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Act 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

Note here that according to Zman, God IS worshiped with men's hands, because God makes all happen.

Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

God created men in general to seek him. We don't need to be Christians before we seek him.

Calvinism says no such thing, God didn't really create all men to seek him out, that is his revealed will..God doesn't really call all men everywhere to repent either, another illusion..

Once again: "Would you rather have a woman choose you because she could do otherwise, or because she could not.? Would you rather choose yourself through her, with some remote control attached to her brain, or would you rather she have the true choice to reject you?"

 

[Z Man]

Zman..I already know about Calvinism.

Ummm... obviously, you don't...

God already chose all men, in that he has written the law into their conscience and has taken away any excuse. Men simply need to humble themselves to Him. Whether that means to be physically circumcised...or believe on Jesus Christ...

Romans 1 says God is working on everyone's heart already. Men simply refuse to submit to him, because Steve allows them to. Remember when Paul said men are without excuse because God has revealed IN them..? Calvinism gives them the ultimate excuse to reject God, God himself.

Calvinism or any other belief that I'm aware of, does not teach that God makes men reject Him. That's ludicris! Calvinism, and what I believe, teach that the Bible tells us that sin enslaves us. According to Paul:

Romans 8:7-8
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

While we are in the flesh, we will always use our choice to reject God. Always.

You state that: "Romans 1 says God is working on everyone's heart already. Men simply refuse to submit to him". Does that include you? Are you some sort of special case in which you are better than everyone else, cause you chose to submit to God of your own will?

Romans 2 also declares:

Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Your point?

Acts:

Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Act 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

Note here that according to Zman, God IS worshiped with men's hands, because God makes all happen.

False accusation. How in the world can you relate what I've said earlier to you in any of my posts with the idea that I contradict Acts 17:25? I've never even mentioned such a thing.

Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

God created men in general to seek him. We don't need to be Christians before we seek him.

I agree that all men seek that which can only be found in God. But no man, as seen in Romans 8:7-8 and plenty more Scriptures, will ever seek God while in their flesh. They may seek other alternatives, such as sex, drugs, or whatever, but they will never think of actually going to God. Until God saves us, we will always reject Him.

P.S. Funny you should post Acts 17:26. I wonder how the Open Theists twist this verse to make it more comfortable for them to live with? :chuckle:

Calvinism says no such thing, God didn't really create all men to seek him out, that is his revealed will..God doesn't really call all men everywhere to repent either, another illusion..

More false accusations. I thought you said you knew about Calvinism? You need to do a little more research pal.

Once again: "Would you rather have a woman choose you because she could do otherwise, or because she could not.? Would you rather choose yourself through her, with some remote control attached to her brain, or would you rather she have the true choice to reject you?"

The problem with this analogy is that you falsly associate love with a choice.

Let's say there is this girl you like who obviously doesn't like you back. No matter what you do for her, i.e., give her flowers, show her the art you've created, and other things, she still hates your guts. She doesn't realize it, but she is suffering from a severe kidney disease that if not treated, she will surely die. The doctors tell her that she needs to have someone donate a kidney to her. Willing to take the offer, you oblige and save her life. Needless to say, she sees your worth and how much you truly love her, and realizes that you saved her life. She willingly flees to your open arms and you two love each other forever more.

Horrible analogy, but I'm trying to make a point here. God doesn't force us to love Him. I don't know how many times I have to say it before you or anyone else on this website finally understands. He simply removes our rebellious will and opens our eyes to His marvelous and wonderful truth. When we finally see God for who He is, we run to Him with our arms wide open! We finally see and find what we've been looking for all our lives.

 

[Shadowx]

Once again: "Would you rather have a woman choose you because she could do otherwise, or because she could not.? Would you rather choose yourself through her, with some remote control attached to her brain, or would you rather she have the true choice to reject you?"

Zman, when you answer this question I'll respond to the rest of your post in full. I still don't see an answer to this question..really..

Just a story about some guy who was trying to get a girl to love him by spending time, money and a kidney on her..and it finally paid off ..Sounds like Isaiah Chapter 5..somewhat..except..all the effort God spent didn't achieve his desired ends..at least not at that moment..

My point is they both could have rejected one another..which made the choosing mean something to each of them..And if he had to of hardwired her brain to respond to him in love, you think that would make him happy?

Do you want your future wife with the ability to reject you?
Or do you want her preprogrammed to accept you?

 

[Leonard A]

Too strong a statement.

Response:
1. Context is important. I was talking about the nature and attributes of God. The is critical. If you do not have a right understanding/belief in God, you are worshiping another God. Please re-read.

Paul warns a number of times of about people.

Ro 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. Is this too strong?

1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme. Is this too strong?

2Ti 2:17,18 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. Is this too strong?

I could go on. However, if you read the Rom 16.17 passage true believers are to observe and mark those who are contrary. Stop and consider.

You apparently don't know the OV position.

Response:
I am addressing the particular positon of the OV that God changes as stated in the debate. This is the focus of my comments. .

No. Because God is all-powerful, He makes the future certain. That is not to say that He 'looks into the future.' God declares the end from the beginning. God does not 'see' or 'create' the end from the beginning.
I delared on Sunday that I would drive to Denver on Monday. On Monday, I used my power to actually drive to Denver. Did I see the future?

Response:
ALL - In reference to God, this means that He is complete. If anything is added to God (e.g., learning future events), God is not complete. Be very careful. Stop and consider.

Secondly, We are talking about serious and eternal issues. You must reconsider such an expamle you are using. Read Ps 50:21 below. Stop and consider.

Ps 50:21 These [things] hast thou done, and I kept silence; thou thoughtest that I was altogether [such an one] as thyself: [but] I will reprove thee, and set [them] in order before thine eyes.

Yes, stop and consider. God's cousel shall stand, and He "will do," when the time comes, all His pleasure.

Response:
When the "time comes." This phrase has put a limit on God. You have constrained Him by time which is His creation. According to your words He is not complete.

Stop and consider that no one said God doesn't have complete power.

Response:
Whatever area that touchs on the attributes of God He govens it completely. There cannot be any external constraints. This would violate the nature of God.

Da 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth [are] reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and [among] the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

To put the last statement in the context of this post. "What doest thou? Remember, there are eternal repercussions. As I said in my first post. This is not a mere academic argument.

Leonard A.

 

[GuySmiley]

Paul warns a number of times of about people.

Ro 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. Is this too strong?

Paul is warning us against Calvanism in this verse (just kidding) Consider and stop.

1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme. Is this too strong?

Do you believe anyone who is not Calvanist is not a Christian? Consider then stop, then go a little, stop again, and consider.

I could go on. However, if you read the Rom 16.17 passage true believers are to observe and mark those who are contrary. Stop and consider.

Contrary to what baseline? What made Calvanism the baseline? Stop, then move forward a tiny bit, then consider, then eat a sandwhich, then consider some more, then stop again, repeat if necessary.

Response:
ALL - In reference to God, this means that He is complete. If anything is added to God (e.g., learning future events), God is not complete. Be very careful. Stop and consider.

The future, since it hasn't happened yet, is not knowable. For instance, God doesn't know the color of the Easter Bunny's eyes, since the Easter Bunny doesn't exist. Does that limit God? Carefully consider, then even more carefully stop, move to the right, then consider some more, throw salt over your shoulder, and stop again.

Secondly, We are talking about serious and eternal issues. You must reconsider such an expamle you are using. Read Ps 50:21 below. Stop and consider.

What is serious is your idea that if people aren't Calvanist, then they aren't Christian. Only consider this one, no stopping needed.

Response:
When the "time comes." This phrase has put a limit on God. You have constrained Him by time which is His creation. According to your words He is not complete.

Revelation 8:1
1 When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. NKJV

Hmmm . . . a half an hour in heaven? God is constrained by time?

Hebrews 10:13
13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. NKJV

God is waiting for something?

Tell me where in the Bible did God create time? Time isn't a thing.

This time consider, then stop, then tilt your head to the left, consider some more, move a little forward, stop agian, consider, then run foward really fast, come to a sudden stop, and consider.

 

[Vaquero45]

Response:
When the "time comes." This phrase has put a limit on God. You have constrained Him by time which is His creation. According to your words He is not complete.
Leonard A.

"time which is His creation"

Verse please?

(hint, there isn't one)

 

[RightIdea]

The idea that God created time is silly and self-contradictory on its face. I'm never short of amazed how consistently atemporalists describe God in temporal terms.

For God to "create" time, then from God's perspective, there was no time, and then there was time. Before and after. How can God have existed "before time?" How can He "create time" if He cannot commit any action at all? To commit an action denotes a change. Change denotes before-and-after, and chronology, all of which absolutely require time. God by logical necessity has always experienced time. It is a characteristic of existence. The atemporal God is an impotent and deist God, necessarily. An atemporal God cannot do anything because to do something would denote change, before-and-after, chronology... time!

 

[GuySmiley]

"time which is His creation"

Verse please?

(hint, there isn't one)

Come On Vaquero45!! If only you would stop and consider.

 

[RightIdea]

Even Lamerson has affirmed multiple times that He believes God is temporal. Which I think is pretty awesome. :thumb:

 

[Army of One]

Paul is warning us against Calvanism in this verse (just kidding) Consider and stop.


Do you believe anyone who is not Calvanist is not a Christian? Consider then stop, then go a little, stop again, and consider.


Contrary to what baseline? What made Calvanism the baseline? Stop, then move forward a tiny bit, then consider, then eat a sandwhich, then consider some more, then stop again, repeat if necessary.


The future, since it hasn't happened yet, is not knowable. For instance, God doesn't know the color of the Easter Bunny's eyes, since the Easter Bunny doesn't exist. Does that limit God? Carefully consider, then even more carefully stop, move to the right, then consider some more, throw salt over your shoulder, and stop again.


What is serious is your idea that if people aren't Calvanist, then they aren't Christian. Only consider this one, no stopping needed.


Revelation 8:1
1 When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. NKJV

Hmmm . . . a half an hour in heaven? God is constrained by time?

Hebrews 10:13
13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. NKJV

God is waiting for something?

Tell me where in the Bible did God create time? Time isn't a thing.

This time consider, then stop, then tilt your head to the left, consider some more, move a little forward, stop agian, consider, then run foward really fast, come to a sudden stop, and consider.

:rotfl:

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to GuySmiley again.

 

[Leonard A]

Opness Theology

Opness Theology

Greetings All,

Excerpt from My Original Post:

It should be clear to all individuals that the nature and attributes of the Godhead are being addressed.

In this debate, there is no middle ground.

Either you believe that God does not change or that He does. Whoever is on the wrong side is not a Christian.

_______________________________________________________________
Originally Posted by Clete

That's facinating. Now open theists are not Christians.
________________________________________________________________

The answer is NO. Read on. Stop and Consider

I would like to address Clete's statement. To do this, we must go back to when a person is regenerated and believes the gospel. How much does this individual know. I would say very little. We see by Peter and Paul's statements, that there is progress after regeneration.

2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and [in] the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him [be] glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ:

This brings us to the walk of the true believer. Can they temporarily wander off the road.
Yes. For a good exercise, read Galatians and note the strong words Paul has for them to return to the right path.

However, there is a dark aspect as the true beliver walks this life. It is this. FALSE BRETHREN, HOLDERS OF FALSE DOCTRINE. See below.

Ga 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

Ro 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
Ro 16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

We find them and "mark them." A great task indeed.

Finally, there is a class of these individuals that we must particularly note. Those who have initially accepted the truth, then reject it, and finally fight against it.

Lu 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

2Co 11:13 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2Ti 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

The greatest example of this is Judas. Up to the very time of the Lord’s last passover when he told His disciples that one would betray Him they were all a quandary as to who was the betrayer because they had not seen at that point any signs of evil one of the disciple as opposed to another

Especially marking these individuals is a great task, indeed.

In conclusion, if an individual has known and truly understood/embraced the truth and afterward, rejects it, and fights against it, that person is not a true believer. That person will never be a believer.

This is what the Lord says of them.
Ps 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Stop and Consider.

Leonard A.

 

[Shalom]

:darwinsm: :darwinsm: :darwinsm: :darwinsm: :darwinsm: :darwinsm: :darwinsm: :darwinsm: :darwinsm: :darwinsm: :darwinsm: :darwinsm: Reps for GuySmilie!!!!!

Paul is warning us against Calvanism in this verse (just kidding) Consider and stop.


Do you believe anyone who is not Calvanist is not a Christian? Consider then stop, then go a little, stop again, and consider.


Contrary to what baseline? What made Calvanism the baseline? Stop, then move forward a tiny bit, then consider, then eat a sandwhich, then consider some more, then stop again, repeat if necessary.


The future, since it hasn't happened yet, is not knowable. For instance, God doesn't know the color of the Easter Bunny's eyes, since the Easter Bunny doesn't exist. Does that limit God? Carefully consider, then even more carefully stop, move to the right, then consider some more, throw salt over your shoulder, and stop again.


What is serious is your idea that if people aren't Calvanist, then they aren't Christian. Only consider this one, no stopping needed.


Revelation 8:1
1 When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. NKJV

Hmmm . . . a half an hour in heaven? God is constrained by time?

Hebrews 10:13
13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. NKJV

God is waiting for something?

Tell me where in the Bible did God create time? Time isn't a thing.

This time consider, then stop, then tilt your head to the left, consider some more, move a little forward, stop agian, consider, then run foward really fast, come to a sudden stop, and consider.

 

[GuySmiley]

In conclusion, if an individual has known and truly understood/embraced the truth and afterward, rejects it, and fights against it, that person is not a true believer. That person will never be a believer.

This is what the Lord says of them.
Ps 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Stop and Consider.

Leonard A.

Ok, in all seriousness now. Where do you get that the tuth being accepted, then rejected here is the "truth" concerning Open view vs. Calvanism? (EDITED out a sentence here)

 

[RightIdea]

Greetings All,

Excerpt from My Original Post:

It should be clear to all individuals that the nature and attributes of the Godhead are being addressed.

In this debate, there is no middle ground.

Either you believe that God does not change or that He does. Whoever is on the wrong side is not a Christian.

Leonard A.

Leonard, you're now guilty of preaching a false gospel of works.

A person is saved (and eternally secure, I might add) if they confess Jesus as Lord, and believe He rose from the dead. We all here affirm His deity, and the resurrection; there's no arguments on those matters. This is a secondary issue, not a salvational issue, and Lamerson himself agrees on that point, certainly.

But, you are bandying about this false gospel of works, now. You're saying that beyond the above requirements, a person must have __% amount of other doctrine correct in order to be saved. Must a person believe in your specific eschatological view to be saved? Must they agree with you on the matter of angelology, or ecclesiology, or missiology? You are adding unbiblical requirements to the gospel of salvation which is through justification by faith alone. And I rebuke that. There are few worse things a Christian can do than to preach a false gospel.

 

[Leonard A]

Come On Vaquero45!! If only you would stop and consider.

Here's one.

Ge 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

NOTE: This is day one. It is a cardinal number. The following days are ordinal (e.g., second not two, third not three, etc.) Do the research.

As I said the Word of God is knowable. However, the Bible is not a lazy man's book.

Stop and Consider

Leonard A.

 

[RightIdea]

Oy vay. Leo, what is the context of Genesis one? Just a guess, but I believe it is Creation!

God is referring to "Day 1" of ... what? Creation!

That really isn't hard to understand...

 

[GuySmiley]

NOTE: This is day one. It is a cardinal number. The following days are ordinal (e.g., second not two, third not three, etc.) Do the research.

As I said the Word of God is knowable. However, the Bible is not a lazy man's book.

How does this prove that God created time? It would be better for your case if the 'first' day was an ordinal number, then you could point to something that almost references time starting somewhere. But even you can't avoid explaining the days in an ordinal manner, time progressing by your use of the word following. I should stop longer, or maybe I should consider longer, but I dont see your point.

 

[Leonard A]

You are preaching the "gospel of works" by have the faith of the individual as the foundation of their acceptance. You are using the work of the Holy Spirit in the true believer as the foundation of their acceptance. Your are confusing the Second and Third Persons' work. Are you Catholic?

The basis of the true believer's acceptance is nothing less and nothing more than the person and work of Christ.

Ro 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
Ro 5:1 ¶ Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:


Ro 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Ro 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Ro 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

These individuals that I referred to never truly believed. Look at my reference to Judas. Unless you believe in Universal Reconciliation were even Satan's comes into the fold of God.

BRIEF NOTE: There is the work of the Holy Spirit that takes place in all true believers. This is another topic.

Stop and Consider.

Leonard A.

 

[Leonard A]

How does this prove that God created time? It would be better for your case if the 'first' day was an ordinal number, then you could point to something that almost references time starting somewhere. But even you can't avoid explaining the days in an ordinal manner, time progressing by your use of the word following. I should stop longer, or maybe I should consider longer, but I dont see your point.

Please do some more research and reply.

Stop and Consider.

Leonard A.