drbrumley said:
Then there is no such thing as free will. God doesn't love us enough to create us with free will.
Why do you associate love with free will? Love doesn't require a choice.
Let's say that one day, Steve ventures into a bar and notices a guy named John who is really drunk. The drunkard stumbles to his feet from his stool, and proceeds to his car to drive home! But Steve realizes that this guy is on a path to his grave. So Steve wonders over and tries to take the keys from the drunk, but John refuses to let Steve near him. John pushes at Steve and yells for him to get out of his way. He even took a swing at Steve! But he lost his balance and fell hard to the floor, passing out and dropping the keys as he hit. Steve took the man's keys, and then dragged him to his car and took him home, putting him into his own bed safely. The next morning, John awoke to find himself safe and sound in his own bed! He was amazed, and yet, felt shame in what he had done the night previously. He asked around and finally found out who did this for him. He contacted Steve, and they became really good buddies. John loves Steve for what he did for him that night; he saved John's life!
Now consider what God has done for us. We were lost in our sins and wanted nothing to do with God, like John the drunkard wanted nothing to do with Steve. But despite our hatefulness towards God, He saved us anyways. It wasn't our will that sought God for salvation; it was His will that sought after us! He came to the 'bar' and rescued us from certain doom! That's love, and it had nothing to do with a choice on our part. Heck, we were slaves to sin; our choice was to reject God!
He has already in His mind already sent millions of folks to hell BEFORE they were even Born.
Can God not send people to hell? Cannot He create vessels of wrath, prepared for destruction, so that on the day of judgement, those who have been saved can truly see the magnificence and beauty in their salvation from His wrath?
Job 21:30
For the wicked are reserved for the day of doom; They shall be brought out on the day of wrath.
Proverbs 16:4
The Lord has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.
Romans 9:21-23
Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory...
He has already in His mind already sent millions of folks to hell BEFORE they were even Born. Never even given the chance.
Do any of us deserve a chance? Does God owe us that favor?
God knew He would send these folks to hell and there is nothing going to stop him. Not even prayer.
In the Open View, what purpose does praying for the lost serve? What are you praying for God to do? It can't be to save people, because that would go against a person's right to choose, correct? So why pray for the lost if you believe that we need the free will to choose God?
ZMan, I know you just love the fact that you, before you were even thought of, were bound for heaven.
It's a humbling thought, to believe that God's grace saved an old wretched boy such as myself. I didn't deserve it, and did nothing to earn it. God, out of the mercies of His grace and divine will and purpose, chose to save me. Not because of what I've done, but solely because He chose to; because of what He did. It was unconditional.
Nobody had to witness to you to become saved, unless of course, that was just manufactured to look like christians who witnessed to you were actually doing something with thier faith.
People who witness to other's play a big part in God's role to save the elect. As Paul stated:
Romans 10:14-15
How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, who bring glad tidings of good things!"
It is God's will that He use preaching as a means to 'awaken' the elect.
Yes, I know, you and E4E will say, but you had a choice to accept or not. But God knew your decision before you even made it. How sweet. Don't you just feel the love? How is that a choice? Please tell me ZMan and E4E, if God knows my decisions from the beginning and He has ordained it, how did I have a choice in the matter. He already predestined me to be saved and accept His son as my sin payment. Could I have said No? If I said no, and that was the answer ordained by God, then by all means , please explain how I even had a choice?
I don't believe we had a choice. Our salvation was God's choice.
God, RobotDaveBrumley reporting for duty sir. RobotZMan, reporting for duty sir. I don't really want to live my life for you and honor you cause I WANT TO. No sir, you force me. I don't love you God cause I WANT TO, but because you, before the world even came to be, knew that I was going to love you because you ordained it. You said it was going to happen regardless. You forced me to love you. I'm sorry, but that is not love and that is not honor. King David loved God more than any man alive or dead. God even said so. But obviouly that can't be true. God forced David's love more than any man alive or dead would be more correct. I thank you for ZMan and E4E, that thru them, you made revelation to me that I'm just a robot.
Robot
No one believes that God 'forces' us to love Him. Just like the analogy of how John came to realize what Steve did for him, love followed naturally. When God saves us from sin, He opens our eyes to His truth. When we see God for who He really is, and what He has done for us on the cross, we can't help but fall in love with Him.
