BATTLE TALK ~ BRX (rounds 1 thru 3)

[1Way]

Woe to those who mix good for evil. :cloud9: -- God

God controls/orders all evil to happen. :devil: -- Z Man

The foundation of God's throne is justice...
God condemns the perpetrator along with the conspirator in the same fashion. :cloud9: -- God

God is (somehow?) not held responsible even though it was by His control and ordination that all evil happens. :dunce: -- Z Man

Calvinism’s immutability of God and it’s naturally resultant doctrines (5 points of TULIP) are anti-biblical and ungodly. -- Obviously, that is, if you take God’s word seriously.

 

[elected4ever]

z-man

I don't believe we had a choice. Our salvation was God's choice.

I sure thought i had a decision to make at the time. It's like walking through a door. When you walk up to the door the sign says, "Enter and receive life eternal" so i walk through the door and then I see another sign in front of me that says, "Welcome elect of God. ." I turn around and there is no door that leads out of the room.

 

[drbrumley]

Why do you associate love with free will? Love doesn't require a choice.

Let's say that one day, Steve ventures into a bar and notices a guy named John who is really drunk. The drunkard stumbles to his feet from his stool, and proceeds to his car to drive home! But Steve realizes that this guy is on a path to his grave. So Steve wonders over and tries to take the keys from the drunk, but John refuses to let Steve near him. John pushes at Steve and yells for him to get out of his way. He even took a swing at Steve! But he lost his balance and fell hard to the floor, passing out and dropping the keys as he hit. Steve took the man's keys, and then dragged him to his car and took him home, putting him into his own bed safely. The next morning, John awoke to find himself safe and sound in his own bed! He was amazed, and yet, felt shame in what he had done the night previously. He asked around and finally found out who did this for him. He contacted Steve, and they became really good buddies. John loves Steve for what he did for him that night; he saved John's life!

Now consider what God has done for us. We were lost in our sins and wanted nothing to do with God, like John the drunkard wanted nothing to do with Steve. But despite our hatefulness towards God, He saved us anyways. It wasn't our will that sought God for salvation; it was His will that sought after us! He came to the 'bar' and rescued us from certain doom! That's love, and it had nothing to do with a choice on our part. Heck, we were slaves to sin; our choice was to reject God!

Can God not send people to hell? Cannot He create vessels of wrath, prepared for destruction, so that on the day of judgement, those who have been saved can truly see the magnificence and beauty in their salvation from His wrath?

Job 21:30
For the wicked are reserved for the day of doom; They shall be brought out on the day of wrath.

Proverbs 16:4
The Lord has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

Romans 9:21-23
Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory...

Do any of us deserve a chance? Does God owe us that favor?

In the Open View, what purpose does praying for the lost serve? What are you praying for God to do? It can't be to save people, because that would go against a person's right to choose, correct? So why pray for the lost if you believe that we need the free will to choose God?

It's a humbling thought, to believe that God's grace saved an old wretched boy such as myself. I didn't deserve it, and did nothing to earn it. God, out of the mercies of His grace and divine will and purpose, chose to save me. Not because of what I've done, but solely because He chose to; because of what He did. It was unconditional.

People who witness to other's play a big part in God's role to save the elect. As Paul stated:

Romans 10:14-15
How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, who bring glad tidings of good things!"

It is God's will that He use preaching as a means to 'awaken' the elect.

I don't believe we had a choice. Our salvation was God's choice.

No one believes that God 'forces' us to love Him. Just like the analogy of how John came to realize what Steve did for him, love followed naturally. When God saves us from sin, He opens our eyes to His truth. When we see God for who He really is, and what He has done for us on the cross, we can't help but fall in love with Him.

I will answer this post when I get back.

But I want to ask, read real close this post. You have contradicted yourself in the last two paragraphs. You say God doesn't force us to love Him, but yet knew we would, thereby sealing the deal. Do we have an option to not love Him based on your last two paragraghs? A yes or no will do.

BTW, I don't think you closed folks are NOT Christians. I think you guys are misguided here, but to say you are not Christians would be wrong.

 

[drbrumley]

z-manI sure thought i had a decision to make at the time. It's like walking through a door. When you walk up to the door the sign says, "Enter and receive life eternal" so i walk through the door and then I see another sign in front of me that says, "Welcome elect of God. ." I turn around and there is no door that leads out of the room.

Point is??? We are assured of our salvation? Yes, thats a non conditional promise. Thanks for asking.

 

[1Way]

drbrumley and Z Man and all interested.

(Responding to Z Man’s post 737 to drbrumley.)

Z Man practically brags about his illogical contradictions. He said.

Why do you associate love with free will? Love doesn't require a choice.

Let's say that one day, Steve ventures into a bar and notices a guy named John who is really drunk. The drunkard stumbles to his feet from his stool, and proceeds to his car to drive home! But (1) Steve realizes that this guy is on a path to his grave. So (2) Steve wonders over and tries to take the keys from the drunk, but John refuses to let Steve near him. John pushes at Steve and yells for him to get out of his way. He even took a swing at Steve! But he lost his balance and fell hard to the floor, passing out and dropping the keys as he hit. (3) Steve took the man's keys, and (4) then dragged him to his car and (5) took him home, (6) putting him into his own bed safely. The next morning, John awoke to find himself safe and sound in his own bed! He was amazed, and yet, felt shame in what he had done the night previously. He asked around and finally found out who did this for him. He contacted Steve, and they became really good buddies. John loves Steve for what he did for him that night; he saved John's life!

Right, as if Steve’s decisions to act as he did had NOTHING to do with his love for John. Z lists like a half dozen choices Steve makes in demonstrating his love for John, and at the same time, tries to put off as though choices are not involved.

Z Man is not in the least ashamed of making a mockery of Christianity and his own personal witness. Last I checked outright contradiction is about the last thing we should associate with godliness and the Christian faith.

It is this sort of illogic and subjectivism that turns me and many others off of common Christianity.
:nono:

 

[1Way]

Z Man, although I wish you were banned for your abuse of scripture and God's reputation, I'm glad everyone can learn just how wrong and damaging your views are.

 

[Z Man]

Clete and 1Way,

You two are good at attacking and ridiculing. But in light of what I've posted already, your posts do nothing to refute them. In other words, you're doing nothing but wasting valuable forum space. I don't care what you think about me or my beliefs. If you can't prove the Scriptures I've provided wrong, then don't take it out on me. Suck it up and swallow the hard truth.

Kill your egos.

 

[Clete]

Clete and 1Way,

You two are good at attacking and ridiculing. But in light of what I've posted already, your posts do nothing to refute them. In other words, you're doing nothing but wasting valuable forum space. I don't care what you think about me or my beliefs. If you can't prove the Scriptures I've provided wrong, then don't take it out on me. Suck it up and swallow the hard truth.

Kill your egos.

Hypocrite. :nono:

 

[Delmar]

... If God can change his mind then God cannot be trusted to keep His word. He can change His mine and through all of us in the dump. Is this the God you trusted? Is this the God that you have confidence in? The one that Paul referred too when he said," I know in whom I have believed and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day."

God, whether or not he changes his mind on some matters, can be trusted for one reason that all Christians agree upon whether Calvanist, Armienian, Open View . You will agree, Zman will agree and I agree that God can be trusted because his righteous character never changes!

 

[elected4ever]

God, whether or not he changes his mind on some matters, can be trusted for one reason that all Christians agree upon whether Calvanist, Armienian, Open View . You will agree, Zman will agree and I agree that God can be trusted because his righteous character never changes!

How can God be righteous if he keeps getting surprised and having to change his mine because he made a mistake?(your characterization of God not mine)

 

[Delmar]

How can God be righteous if he keeps getting surprised and having to change his mine because he made a mistake?(your characterization of God not mine)

E4E never have I implied God makes mistakes, you infered it! It is not my characterization of God that he is fallible.

 

[RightIdea]

How can God be righteous if he keeps getting surprised and having to change his mine because he made a mistake?(your characterization of God not mine)

E4E, you have this terribly backward. You're the one who calls God a repeated liar, and yet you tell us we're the ones who think God makes mistakes???

God does not make mistakes! MAN makes mistakes, and God responds to that righteously! (And without sinning, I might add.... contrary to what you claim of God.) I will not worship a liar. You ask how we can have hope in the God we describe? And yet you worship a liar. How do YOU have hope in a chronic liar, E4E? Indeed, how can you believe anything He says? How can you believe any as-yet unfulfilled (still future) prophecy? How can you believe Revelation will be fulfilled? How can you be assured of your eternal security? The judgment of the wicked, etc.? How can you be assured of anything at all, when all you have is the word of a chronic liar?

 

[elected4ever]

E4E, you have this terribly backward. You're the one who calls God a repeated liar, and yet you tell us we're the ones who think God makes mistakes???

God does not make mistakes! MAN makes mistakes, and God responds to that righteously! (And without sinning, I might add.... contrary to what you claim of God.) I will not worship a liar. You ask how we can have hope in the God we describe? And yet you worship a liar. How do YOU have hope in a chronic liar, E4E? Indeed, how can you believe anything He says? How can you believe any as-yet unfulfilled (still future) prophecy? How can you believe Revelation will be fulfilled? How can you be assured of your eternal security? The judgment of the wicked, etc.? How can you be assured of anything at all, when all you have is the word of a chronic liar?

Did I prove my case on that subject or not? you never bothered to answer even when scripture was stirring you right in the face.

 

[RightIdea]

Never bothered to answer? What on earth are you talking about, man? I've answered everything you've given. What, the "lying spirit" passage you gave in which God only tells the truth and some wicked spirit lies? That passage? LOL

The bottom line is you say that if the Open View is true, we can't trust God.

But the Open View explicitly holds to the immutability of God's character... something you apparently do not hold to.

The only ones here with a problem with trusting God are the CVers like yourself, who must believe that God is a chronic liar. In which case you are the ones who can't have any faith or hope in God's faithfulness, as I said above. You can't be sure of anything He has ever said or promised, because after all, it could be yet another example of God giving us what He emphatically knows to be blatantly false information... all to suit His purposes. How can anyone put faith in a continually deceitful God like that? It's beyond me...

 

[Delmar]

Did I prove my case on that subject or not?

No

 

[RightIdea]

No

Amen. He provided a passage that states the exact opposite of what he claims! And now he wants us to affirm that he proved his point? Laughable.

 

[Yorzhik]

God didn't want it but ordained it? Do you even realize what you are saying here?

I thought I explained myself pretty well on this matter?

Did Christ want to die on the cross? No. Was it ordained by God that He do it anyways? Yes. Did you really want to spank your child for misbehaving? No. But was it necessary for a better cause in the end? Yes.​

Have you ever chosen something that you didn't want? If you were able to record your thoughts and inventory all of the factors present when you made your decision, you would find something, perhaps several things, that worked together to move your decision (thanks Hilston).

Did Christ want to die on the cross? - Yes
Do I want to spank my child for misbehaving? Since the alternative is leaving them to a lifetime of misery, and answer is yes, not no.
Did God have an alternative other than having His son die on the cross? Yes He did! Unlike me and my misbehaving child, God created the initial conditions upon which all other events were built.

So, do you believe God was incapable of creating initially so that the results would have produced a world wherein the evil that God abhors was not present? Or is God not capable of that? If not... what scripture can you possibly get the idea from that God is not capable?

You are saying that God, Christianity, and the bible don't matter. Not to us anyway. The most this can mean is that God ordained that we would care about something that didn't matter to us in any way.

What?

You are saying that everything we do is already settled. The only reason it matters to us is because it was ordained that we would feel like it matters. There are things that may matter to God, but not to us. If we obey God, it doesn't matter; if we do nothing, it doesn't matter; if we disobey God, it doesn't matter.

As you say: "In all these instances, all the people disobeyed God in some form or fashion, as we all do everyday, and yet, all things have been predestined long ago to bring about one purpose; the glorification of God."

As you say: "God's will for them, and everyone for that matter, is that we glorify Him. And that's what He gets, whether it be now, or in the end."

As you say: "And I find it very, very selfish to believe that God was more interested, and would have been more pleased to see Judas repent, than to see him fulfill Scripture, and deliver Jesus into the hands of the Gentiles, so that the world may be saved."

As you say: "You may not believe it, or not even like the idea, but it doesn't matter, because there is Biblical proof to show individuals who were resonsible for the very things God ordained."

As you say: "In God's eyes, those who are not in Christ are just as sinful as Hitler."

And if all these quotes are too suble for you:

"You have no control over your life whatsoever."

" It's not about us; it's all about God. He's doing as He sees fit to bring about whatever it is He so desires."

So the obvious question is... what does "ordain" mean?

or·dain
tr.v. or·dained, or·dain·ing, or·dains

- To order by virtue of superior authority; decree or enact.
- To prearrange unalterably; predestine: by fate ordained.

Yes; quite; spot on.

Nothing matters (to us). Everthing matters to God... but we aren't God.

 

[Yorzhik]

Yikes... I'm busy and you guys make the thread explode!

 

[Shadowx]

Zman:

Steve could have done otherwise which is why it meant something to the drunk.
He could have beat the drunk to a pulp, stole his wallet, etc etc..
And the drunk could have hated Steve for interfering, but He later showed humility..and that is why It meant something to Steve. He was moved by Steve's consern,..knowing how often others mistreated Him and took advantage of Him. However Steve did not do this, even though he could have..

Would you rather have a woman choose you because she could do otherwise, or because she could not.? Would you rather choose yourself through her, with some remote control attached to her brain, or would you rather she have the true choice to reject you?

 

[Delmar]

Did Christ want to die on the cross? - Yes
Do I want to spank my child for misbehaving? Since the alternative is leaving them to a lifetime of misery, and answer is yes, not no.
Did God have an alternative other than having His son die on the cross? Yes He did! Unlike me and my misbehaving child, God created the initial conditions upon which all other events were built.

My response to this was nearly word for word what you just said! Still he chooses to re-post this nonsense