BATTLE TALK ~ BRX (rounds 1 thru 3)
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elected4ever
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Personally I don't think that unbelievers are capable of faith. Therefore faith must be received from God. Be that as it may it is a topic for a different tread. Lets stay on subject and try not to chase rabbits.elected4ever said:
elected4ever
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Pardon me while I read mr. Enyarts latest.
elected4ever
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That's fine but it is not a discussion for this forum.RightIdea said:
RightIdea said:
RI: you crack me up! -Bob
Faith - God's gift
Faith - God's gift
Greetings,
Please read all my post. I always try to be as concise as possible.
However, look at the verse I submitted in the post. I've done some of the leg work for you.
Php 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
Strong's numbering for given 5483 ~carizomai~ charizomai
middle voice from 5485; TDNT-9:372,1298; v
AV-forgive 11, give 6, freely give 2, deliver 2, grant 1,
frankly forgive 1; 23
1) to do something pleasant or agreeable (to one), to do a favour to,
gratify
1a) to show one's self gracious, kind, benevolent
1b) to grant forgiveness, to pardon
1c) to give graciously, give freely, bestow
1c1) to forgive
1c2) graciously to restore one to another
1c3) to preserve for one a person in peril
This definition is taken from the Online Bible.
We are talking about issues that have eternal consequences.
Stop and consider. Take more that 2 minutes to frame a response.
Leonard A.
Faith - God's gift
RightIdea said:
Greetings,
Please read all my post. I always try to be as concise as possible.
However, look at the verse I submitted in the post. I've done some of the leg work for you.
Php 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
Strong's numbering for given 5483 ~carizomai~ charizomai
middle voice from 5485; TDNT-9:372,1298; v
AV-forgive 11, give 6, freely give 2, deliver 2, grant 1,
frankly forgive 1; 23
1) to do something pleasant or agreeable (to one), to do a favour to,
gratify
1a) to show one's self gracious, kind, benevolent
1b) to grant forgiveness, to pardon
1c) to give graciously, give freely, bestow
1c1) to forgive
1c2) graciously to restore one to another
1c3) to preserve for one a person in peril
This definition is taken from the Online Bible.
We are talking about issues that have eternal consequences.
Stop and consider. Take more that 2 minutes to frame a response.
Leonard A.
elected4ever
New member
No, It only affirms what is.deardelmar said:
deardelmar,
You'll never get coherent answers to those questions from Calvinists.
I'm sure I won't be telling you anything you don't already know but for the sake of conversation let me just point out that Z Man and others here are not lying when they say that they do not believe that God makes people reject Him. It's very true that they believe that people reject God on their own. However, it is also very true that they believe that everything that happens anywhere in reality, whether physical or spiritual, happens by the decree of God and that if it has not been decreed to happen, it will not happen.
Now, we in the open view camp see the logical contradiction and acknowledge that it indicates an error somewhere; that both positions cannot be true at the same time because they are mutually exclusive. But the point here is that the Calvinist DOES NOT ACKNOWLEDGE THIS. What the Calvinist does is accept both positions as equally true in spite of what they call "the apparent" contradiction. They do this constantly with much of their theology. So much so, in fact, that they created a whole category of beliefs and conjured up the theological term "antinomy" so things that fall into this category can have a name.
Calvinists love antinomy. They literally believe that it requires a higher degree of spirituality; a greater spiritual maturity to accept antinomy in one's theology. They believe that if one rejects antinomy as irrational it is proof of fleshliness and spiritual childishness. In fact, it is so prevalent that it surprises me that Dr. Lamerson hasn't already brought this up in BR X and I will be shocked beyond words if it doesn't come up at all (I haven't read all of Bob's latest post so I'm assuming that Bob hasn't brought it up himself yet).
At any rate, the Calvinist affinity for logical contradiction... uh, I mean antinomy, leads them to endless self-contradiction and confusion. This is the primary reason that we in the open view camp get accused of lying and of attacking straw men all the time. It's because we logically analyze one position, say their understanding of sovereignty for example, and attack that idea based on what logical conclusion would be dictated based on that premise (i.e. that God is responsible for sin). The discussion breaks down because we forget that they too reject that logical conclusion while clinging tightly to the premise in spite of the demands of what they call "man's logic". That’s antinomy in action.
In short they have circled the wagons round about them and created a very tight circle of reasoning that cannot be falsified in the mind of the ardent Calvinist.
Oh! How I wish that simply pointing out the fact that their theology is unfalsifiable (which militates against Biblical principle) was sufficient to convince them to reject it but unfortunately that too is simply another antinomy that presents itself only via "man's logic". In most cases, it truly is a lost cause. There are, of course, exceptions though, and that's what keeps these discussions worth having. Perhaps one or two here and there will read these pages and be convinced.
Resting in Him,
Clete
You'll never get coherent answers to those questions from Calvinists.
I'm sure I won't be telling you anything you don't already know but for the sake of conversation let me just point out that Z Man and others here are not lying when they say that they do not believe that God makes people reject Him. It's very true that they believe that people reject God on their own. However, it is also very true that they believe that everything that happens anywhere in reality, whether physical or spiritual, happens by the decree of God and that if it has not been decreed to happen, it will not happen.
Now, we in the open view camp see the logical contradiction and acknowledge that it indicates an error somewhere; that both positions cannot be true at the same time because they are mutually exclusive. But the point here is that the Calvinist DOES NOT ACKNOWLEDGE THIS. What the Calvinist does is accept both positions as equally true in spite of what they call "the apparent" contradiction. They do this constantly with much of their theology. So much so, in fact, that they created a whole category of beliefs and conjured up the theological term "antinomy" so things that fall into this category can have a name.
Calvinists love antinomy. They literally believe that it requires a higher degree of spirituality; a greater spiritual maturity to accept antinomy in one's theology. They believe that if one rejects antinomy as irrational it is proof of fleshliness and spiritual childishness. In fact, it is so prevalent that it surprises me that Dr. Lamerson hasn't already brought this up in BR X and I will be shocked beyond words if it doesn't come up at all (I haven't read all of Bob's latest post so I'm assuming that Bob hasn't brought it up himself yet).
At any rate, the Calvinist affinity for logical contradiction... uh, I mean antinomy, leads them to endless self-contradiction and confusion. This is the primary reason that we in the open view camp get accused of lying and of attacking straw men all the time. It's because we logically analyze one position, say their understanding of sovereignty for example, and attack that idea based on what logical conclusion would be dictated based on that premise (i.e. that God is responsible for sin). The discussion breaks down because we forget that they too reject that logical conclusion while clinging tightly to the premise in spite of the demands of what they call "man's logic". That’s antinomy in action.
In short they have circled the wagons round about them and created a very tight circle of reasoning that cannot be falsified in the mind of the ardent Calvinist.
Oh! How I wish that simply pointing out the fact that their theology is unfalsifiable (which militates against Biblical principle) was sufficient to convince them to reject it but unfortunately that too is simply another antinomy that presents itself only via "man's logic". In most cases, it truly is a lost cause. There are, of course, exceptions though, and that's what keeps these discussions worth having. Perhaps one or two here and there will read these pages and be convinced.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Last edited:
an·tin·o·my Pronunciation (n-tn-m)
n. pl. an·tin·o·mies
1. Contradiction or opposition, especially between two laws or rules.
2. A contradiction between principles or conclusions that seem equally necessary and reasonable; a paradox.
I had to look it up.
n. pl. an·tin·o·mies
1. Contradiction or opposition, especially between two laws or rules.
2. A contradiction between principles or conclusions that seem equally necessary and reasonable; a paradox.
I had to look it up.
GuySmiley said:
Read the parable of the sower and the seed. This should answer your question.
In this case, it is the individuals that have held and fully understood Calvinism, and then rejected it and now fight against it. It is those I am referring to.
Stop and Consider.
Leonard A.
elected4ever
New member
Romans 9:22 *What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:Leonard A said:
23 *And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 *Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 *¶As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 *And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 *Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 *For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
elected4ever
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I gave you a clear and coherent answer. It is not my fault you don't accept it.Clete said:
Are you saying that the Bible contradicts itself and is therefore unreliable. You therefore reserve the right to "correct" it because of your superior logic
Right. we reject your willingness to change the truth into a lie because of your supposedly superior logic.
That is right. we give difference to the Word. It is not the scriptures that are contradictory, it is just that our understanding of them that is faulty. We trust God to give understanding in due course.But not you! You would prefer to tell God that he made a mistake and that His logic is faulty.
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