So... help me out here....
Are you saying that my thoughts are not part of God's decree?
And would you then go so far as to state...
Therefore, God does not decree EVERYTHING.
ARGH!!! Calvinism makes me furious!!!
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
- Start date
Are you saying that my thoughts are not part of God's decree?
And would you then go so far as to state...
Therefore, God does not decree EVERYTHING.
Z Man
New member
Of course God commands us not to grieve the Holy Spirit! Why would God command us to do otherwise? As for #2, God directs the steps of men, despite whether their motive was good or not.
After I graduate from college, God willing, I hope to become a commissioned officer for the Air Force. When that day comes, I'll have to take an oath, to solemly swear that I'll protect the constitution of the United States and for what it stands for. I will also swear to protect this great nation and all those that dwell within her great lands. I will be commissioned and commanded by the Commander in Chief to uphold that oath.
However, oneday, some terriosts highjack an airplane and are on their way to create another '911' incident. They are not far from my base, and my orders are to hop into my F-22 and take that airliner out - American civilians and all. What should I do? I had sworn to protect the very people I am about to destroy. But all is not lost; I must 'grieve' my oath to protect and defend a greater cause; to spare the life of many more innoncent lives.
In the same way, all things that God does is to display His glory. He has created some for destruction, and other's for mercy. Those whom do evil are destroyed through the wrath and judgement of God, and everyone is made aware that He is the Lord of all who carries out His Justice. He does not delight in wickedness! Those whom He has saved display God's mercies and agape love and glory.
How can we know of love unless we've seen hate? Good unless we've seen evil? God's glory unless we've seen the destruction of wickedness?
Z Man
New member
I'm saying that we think what we want to think; we make plans to do whatever we please. But it's God who directs our steps. We can plan to go the lake with our families tomorrow to have a great afternoon of fun in the sun, but on the way, God may ordain that we all get in a car wreck and die. I may want to go into the Air Force after college, but God may have something else for me instead. Paul wanted to go north to preach the gospel into northern Asia, but God didn't let Him:
Acts 16:6-8
Now when they had gone through Phrygia and the region of Galatia, they were forbidden by the Holy Spirit to preach the word in Asia. After they had come to Mysia, they tried to go into Bithynia, but the Spirit did not permit them. So passing by Mysia, they came down to Troas.
Although I'm sure the sons of Eli did not want to die, they did not heed the warning from their father, because the Lord wanted them dead:
1 Samuel 2:22-25
Now Eli was very old; and he heard all that his sons were doing to all Israel, and how they lay with the women who served at the doorway of the tent of meeting. And he said to them, `Why do you do such things, the evil things that I hear from all these people? No, my sons; for the report is not good which I hear the Lord's people circulating. If one man sins against another, God will mediate for him; but if a man sins against the Lord, who can intercede for him?' But they would not listen to the voice of their father, for the Lord desired to put them to death.
The brothers of Joseph in Genesis meant to harm Joseph; thier intent and plans were evil against him. Yet, God meant it for good. He directed the steps of Josephs brothers, and ordained that Joseph be sold into slavery, yet it was all for a greater cause.
Genesis 50:20
But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive.
We plan our own ways and create our own thoughts, and they are all evil. Yet, the Lord does with us as He pleases. If He wants someone to do good and righteous things, to display His glory and mercy, He'll 'save' them and grant them blessings. And He'll work through them to produce 'righteousness':
Hebrews 13:20-21
Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, make you complete in every good work to do His will, working in you what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.
Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
He has indeed decreed everything. Nothing is out of His 'grasp', or control. He has created the wicked for Himself, just as He has created the 'righteous'. He uses both for His purpose and His glory. He has created everything and is in control of everything, working to bring about His purposes and glory in all the earth.
Just because we sin doesn't mean He sins. He is God; He can't sin. He can kill whoever He wishes, give diseases to whoever He wishes, save whoever He wishes, and He will always be right.
That's nice and all, and I thank you for your service to this country but again, this is not Calvinist doctrine.
Are you intentionally moving away from Calvinism or do you not see that what you are saying here is in conflict with the Calvinst system?
Resting in Him,
Clete
OK I am with ya so far....
But here is where yo lose me....
You seem to exclude our thoughts and our plans from the "eveything" that you claim God decreed.
Did God decree our thoughts and plans or not?
If He did.... then your first statement about us having our own thoughts is in error.
If He doesn't... then your second statement about God decreeing "everything" is in error.
Please help me out here.
karstkid
New member
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: AHHHHH calvinism makes me furious!!!
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: AHHHHH calvinism makes me furious!!!
Man's sin brought at first spiritual death. When God kicked man out of the Garden to the natural world outside, man became subject to physical death. It makes total sense that God would chase Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden to the outside-of-garden-natural-world that coexisted with the perfect Garden of Eden. Otherwise to what and where would God kick Adam and Eve out to? According to the timing of events in Scripture the imperfect natural world existed before the Garden of Eden was created. God didn't not create biting flies, mosquitoes, poisonous snakes, poison ivy, thorny plants, bears, lions, sharks, tornadoes, floods, earthquakes, volcanoes, etc. after the 6th day of creation. These irritating and dangerous natural creatures and phenomena existed before man's exit from the Garden. So, the death that Scripture refers to is man's own death not the death of other creatures outside of the Garden.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: AHHHHH calvinism makes me furious!!!
Man's sin brought at first spiritual death. When God kicked man out of the Garden to the natural world outside, man became subject to physical death. It makes total sense that God would chase Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden to the outside-of-garden-natural-world that coexisted with the perfect Garden of Eden. Otherwise to what and where would God kick Adam and Eve out to? According to the timing of events in Scripture the imperfect natural world existed before the Garden of Eden was created. God didn't not create biting flies, mosquitoes, poisonous snakes, poison ivy, thorny plants, bears, lions, sharks, tornadoes, floods, earthquakes, volcanoes, etc. after the 6th day of creation. These irritating and dangerous natural creatures and phenomena existed before man's exit from the Garden. So, the death that Scripture refers to is man's own death not the death of other creatures outside of the Garden.
God_Is_Truth
New member
or maybe you thought you believed in calvinism, but it was really something else..... :think:
Z Man
New member
Does God think for us? No. Does He control what we do? Yes. The thoughts you have in your head are not God's; He's not doing some sort of 'mind telepathy' thinking for you. Your thoughts are your own. You make plans for yourself. However, God decrees if those plans are carried out or not; He directs our steps. Sometimes, to keep us from doing what we want to do, or probably would have done, He hardens our hearts and ears so that we lack the ability to understand, as in the case with Eli's sons and Pharaoh. Other times, God may 'open' our eyes to His understanding, so that He may use us for His glory in other ways. Sometimes we plan to do things, yet God does not allow it, or, He'll make sure that it comes to pass. God knows the thoughts and hearts of every man for all time; He is working to bring about everything according to His purposes and His perfect will.
Just because God has foreknowledge does not eliminate our responsibility. As John Piper has said:
Z Man
New member
Maybe... :think:
I've always stated that I feel the same way about 'Calvinism' as Jonathan Edwards once said:
"I should not take it at all amiss, to be called a Calvinist, for distinction's sake: though I utterly disclaim a dependence on Calvin, or believing the doctrines which I hold, because he believed and taught them; and cannot justly be charged with believing in every thing just as he taught."
boogerhead
New member
Romans 3:5-7
5: But if our righteousness commendeth the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who visiteth with wrath? (I speak after the manner of men.)
6: God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
7: But if the truth of God through my lie abounded unto his glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner?
In this chapter Paul has shown that God's righteousness is shown forth in condemning the Jews for their unbelief. "But," says the Jew, "if our unrighteousness demonstrates God's faithfulness, when he condemns us for unbelief, is it right that we should be punished? Our sin gives occasion for God's holiness to be shown forth. Why, then, should we be punished for furnishing such an occasion? Speaking after the manner of men, is not God unrighteous, when he sends wrath on our nation for its unbelief?" to which Paul replies, "God forbid" or "Absolutely not."
Romans 3:8
and why not (as we are slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say), Let us do evil, that good may come? whose condemnation is just.
Here Paul is telling them that, though God's glory and righteousness are shown through the condemnation of our evil, this is not a crutch to do evil (as some slanderously chargeed Paul of saying). It does not say that the glory of God cannot show forth despite the evil of men. Evil does not produce good...But God can work all things for the good of those who love Him...
boogerhead
New member
p.s. i don't recall ever saying that evil produces good...but that from the mouth that comes good also come evil...
1Way
+OL remote satellite affiliate
BH - You don't have to say those exact words to give the same meaning. I was referring to your entire ideology that was not differentiating between the two. God consistently differentiates between good and evil.
As to Romans 3, I think it is not as complex and mixing of good and evil as you may have tried to state things. Try this. Read the passage and just say to yourself, that
it is always good to oppose evil/sin
and/or
it is always bad of oppose good/righteousness
So when I read that passage, I do not doubt what moral considerations go where and where they do not go.
So God is good and righteous to punish sinners, and evil never produces good, nor does good ever produce evil, as we read and know, they are mutually exclusive. So you cannot make congruent man's evil and God's good, not thatyou clearly did that, but your sort of theology you have been defending is famous for doing just that. What is congruent is God's good response against evil by punishing the wicked.
Good never produces evil.
Evil never produces good.
But by responding to the initial moral deed, you can change things for the better or for the worse, depending upon your response.
As to Romans 3, I think it is not as complex and mixing of good and evil as you may have tried to state things. Try this. Read the passage and just say to yourself, that
it is always good to oppose evil/sin
and/or
it is always bad of oppose good/righteousness
So when I read that passage, I do not doubt what moral considerations go where and where they do not go.
- Isa 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
So God is good and righteous to punish sinners, and evil never produces good, nor does good ever produce evil, as we read and know, they are mutually exclusive. So you cannot make congruent man's evil and God's good, not thatyou clearly did that, but your sort of theology you have been defending is famous for doing just that. What is congruent is God's good response against evil by punishing the wicked.
Good never produces evil.
Evil never produces good.
But by responding to the initial moral deed, you can change things for the better or for the worse, depending upon your response.
God_Is_Truth
New member
Z Man, do you understand what it means for God to decree everything?
Z Man
New member
Surely God does decree everything! Why do our thoughts have to be included to mean 'everything'?
God doesn't 'think' for us, or ordain our every little thought, but He does ordain and decree everything that happens around us. He may not 'think' for us, but He does influence our thoughts. He causes certain situations to happen all around us to cause us to think the way He desires. He hardens people's hearts, He blinds people's eyes, He shuts the mouths of those whom He does not want to speak; He does indeed decree everything! Everything that happens in this world was/is ordained by God. You can plan your ways, BUT the Lord directs our steps, whether they fit our plans or not.
1Way
+OL remote satellite affiliate
Z Man - So if I think I will do A
But God decress that I will do non-A
and I'm really certain and determined to do A
I will do non-A
Because God directs my steps but I plan my ways, and His directions trumps my plans no matter what.
So our thoughts are not causative nor necessarily congruent with our actions.
???
But God decress that I will do non-A
and I'm really certain and determined to do A
I will do non-A
Because God directs my steps but I plan my ways, and His directions trumps my plans no matter what.
So our thoughts are not causative nor necessarily congruent with our actions.
???
1Way
+OL remote satellite affiliate
The Lord directs our steps whether they fit our plans or not.
So you see the physical relationship here, that God is in control of what actually happens in life, but not the mental emotional feeling sensing part of life, just the physical.
Also
When you say that God decrees everything, why would our thoughts not be included in everything? You are talking one way and then saying it another way posts and posts latter, which makes discussion difficult.
Anyway, what is your bible reasoning for delimiting "everything is decreed" to not including our thoughts, just actions or physical things?
So you see the physical relationship here, that God is in control of what actually happens in life, but not the mental emotional feeling sensing part of life, just the physical.
Also
When you say that God decrees everything, why would our thoughts not be included in everything? You are talking one way and then saying it another way posts and posts latter, which makes discussion difficult.
Anyway, what is your bible reasoning for delimiting "everything is decreed" to not including our thoughts, just actions or physical things?
Z Man
New member
EXACTLY! His will is what is in control; not ours! We can plan what we wish all day, but God is the one who directs our steps; He gets His way, not vice versa. He frustrates our plans; we do not frustrate His.
Psalms 33:10-11
The Lord brings the counsel of the nations to nothing; He makes the plans of the peoples of no effect. The counsel of the Lord stands forever, The plans of His heart to all generations.
Job 5:12
[God] frustrates the devices of the crafty, So that their hands cannot carry out their plans.
Isaiah 44:24-25
Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, And He who formed you from the womb: "I am the Lord, who makes all things, Who stretches out the heavens all alone, Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself; Who frustrates the signs of the babblers, And drives diviners mad; Who turns wise men backward, And makes their knowledge foolishness;
Z Man
New member
I think you misunderstand me not because I do not explain my views well, but because you hold to a 'strawman' view of my beliefs. When I try and explain things to you all, you reference what I say according to your 'strawman', and thus the confusion...
If our thoughts were God's, we'd all be God.
Rolf Ernst
New member
Big Finn, Knight and others--
I don't spend much time on this forum, primarily because I don't have my own computer; secondarily because it has much stuff on it which is grievous to my spirit. I don't enjoy perusing so many gross distortions of Scripture, especially when I could never respond to all of them and when I do respond, it is passed over or misrepresented. Then when I am gone, as I frequently am, some of you leap to say, "What the matta you? You skeered? You runaway cause you no can answer?"
I have every answer you people need. Reformed doctrine is square with Scripture, and I can prove it is.
BIG FINN--As I suspected earlier, the straight thoughts you had on Scripture were loaded with conclusions you said nothing about at the time. So, as I said yesterday, my agreement with your statements in general did not in anyway bind me to agree with you on conclusions you might draw from them. Your idea of God being chargeable with selfishness as a consequence of some point of His decree is without basis. You charge God with the foolishness of selfishness. Your charge is false.
I recap your argument briefly so you can be sure that I am addressing your point--You argued that for God to decree something for His own glory which was harmful to someone else was selfishness on His part. Humor follows:La te da, Big Finn--
First, My post #515 on page 35 would have put much of this to rest if it had been considered and fully understood. I will go into greater detail, but before doing so, I want to apologise. I don't like to weary people with posts that are longer than one screen. In this case, it is necessary to use more space.
At times OVers and Arminians are very insistent on man's freewill--OVers especially. God's will, they think, must bend to theirs or else they have no free will. It is interestiing that they think THEIR freewill should have the right and power to preempt GOD'S will, authority and right to govern in accord with His decree--but that is a side issue right now that I will not go further into, except to agree with both Arminians and OVers that man DOES HAVE FREE WILL. Reformed people just believe the scripture concerning man's free will--that it, contrary to Arminian and OV presumptions, is without the power to over ride God's decree; which, by the way, is from everlasting and is, without fail, fulfilled by His all encompassing, absolute providential rule over heaven and earth; falling out at the precise time according to His eternal purpose--"For the Lord has purposed, and who can annul it? His hand is stretched out, and who can turn it back?"
Yet, for all their insistence on man's freewill, they can be very forgetful of it when God is pleased to leave them to their own devices, as He often does; as when Jesus said to Judas, "What you do, do quickly!" Or to the pharisees--"fill up then the measure of your father's wickedness." What a dreadful sentence that is. It announces an end of common grace toward them; an end to that grace which He at times shows to even the most wicked of men as He restrains the evil that is in their own natures.
Once He has removed that restraint upon them, they--of their own freewill and wicked nature--fall, no longer being restrained. Given "up to vile passions,"(Rom.1:26)they plummet--"in the lusts of their hearts" (Ro.1:24) headlong into iniquity.
Men often say of those upon whom God has pronounced that sentence, "If those people don't stop that, God will surely bring judgement upon them." Let the truth be known--their conduct testifies that God's judgment has ALREADY fallen upon them; as it fell upon the gentiles spoken of in Romans chapter one--"Therefore God gave them up..." (verse 24); "for this reason God gave them up..." (verse 26); "...God gave them over..." (verse 28)
God's common grace is His to dispense as He pleases. No man merits it. God would not be unjust--NOR SELFISH, BIG FINN--to leave all men in the misery of their own nature without His gracious restraint. Grace is a gift--an unmerited gift, and offences against the Spirit of grace come at a heavy cost--
As it did with those who disobeyed Him in Old Testament times: "But my people would not heed my voice, and Israel would none of me. So I gave them over to their own stubborn heart, to walk in their own counsels." (Ps. 81:10,11); then their sons dare react with anger when Stephen reminds them of God's JUST judgment against them: Acts 7--"our fathers would not obey, but rejected. And in their hearts they turned back to Egypt, saying to Aaron, 'make us gods to go before us; as for this Moses who brought us out of the land of Egypt, we know not what has become of him.' And they made a calf in those days, offered sacrifices to the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands. THEN GOD TURNED AND GAVE THEM UP to worship the host of heaven, as it is written in the book of the prophets: "Did you offer me slaughtered animals and sacrifices during forty years in the wilderness, O house of Israel? You also took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, images which you made to worship; AND I WILL CARRY YOU AWAY TO BABYLON...You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You do always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you...and they cast him out of the city and stoned him."
BIG FINN--from your objection, I gather that YOU think God has no right to execute judgement upon people by leaving them to their own devices; perhaps to rape a woman. Let me assure you, sir--God would be just to leave man absolutely and totally alone in the morass of his wickedness, with all its filth and consequences AND get glory to himself by demonstrating His just and holy wrath against them for every transgression of His holy law; but He is longsuffering and gracious. You have seen nothing, by comparison, of what this earth would be without His gracious restraining hand. And you, sir, as are all of us, a much more a decent man than what you would otherwise be without His restraint upon the nature within you--"the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked--who can know it?"
We cannot know it, we cannot realize it, because God graciously
restrains what we are in ourselves; but if you want a look at what we ALL are in ourselves as a consequence of the Adamic nature, which we all alike EQUALLY inherited from adam, just consider the catalog of sins which have, over time, erupted upon the earth--Hitler, Stalin, Idi Amin, Ted Bundy, Jim Jones, Jeffry Dahmer--enough of men's names--consider the long train of wickednesses detailed in Romans chapter one. We ALL alike inherited the fallen nature of Adam. Consider all these cataloged wickednesses and ask yourself, "am I, in myself, better than these? Or is it that God has, in His longsuffering and graciousness, been good to me and restrained me??
Remember this, you who think well of yourselves, it is God "who maketh thee to differ from another..."1Cor. 4:7 You (WE) have nothing to glory of in ourselves. As Paul said, "for I know that in me, that is in my flesh, there dwelleth no good thing." We are all alike the sons of Adam, and what has befallen any other could have befallen us also, were it not for His wondrous goodness and graciousness toward us, for "the hearts of the sons of men is full of evil and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that, they go to the dead."
The leper was not clean until he looked upon himself and found--realized-- that he was totally covered with rotten flesh; and you are not quit of your self-righteousness nor are you a truly grateful child of God until you realize that, just like the leper, you were before totally undone; in yourself, nothing but a sinner incapable of anything other than gross disobedience, subject at any moment to falling into any of the many sins cataloged, many of which disobediences the God of heaven and earth spared you from even as you went about with a heart of disbelief. It is God who has made you (US) differ all your life long by the measure of grace which He has graciously given. You have in yourself not been better than ANYONE--Hitler, Stalin, or Jeffry Dahmer.
Fancy yourself better than others, reject the testimony of god's word against you, think that you are well enough without Him, have no need of Him, nor have any reason to be grateful to Him for restraining the evil of your own nature, and the day will come when you will be cast off into eternity without Him, left to forever plummet into the vile vat of wretched wickedness, large as an ocean, to which you will never find either a bank or bottom. "The heart of man is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked--who can know it?"
And you dare think, Big Finn, that after God has dispensed so much unmerited favor, so much common grace to evil men, that He has no RIGHT TO AT TIMES ALLOW MEN UPON EARTH TO SUFFER THAT WHICH THEY TRULY DESERVE AND BE CONSUMED BY THE WICKEDNESS THAT ROILS WITHIN THEIR BREASTS SO THAT HE CAN EXERCISE JUDGEMENT UPON THEM BY LEAVING THEM UNDER THE WEIGHT OF THEIR OWN INIQUITY AND GET GLORY TO HIMSELF BY DEMONSTRATING HIS JUST WRATH AGAINST THEM ?
It is very fitting that when God's longsuffering is at an end that He exercise judgement against them by leaving them to their own devices which, in themselves, serve as judgement. As He said in one place, "your own backslidings will reprove you."
I must add to the previous thoughts that the fact that people may go through hard providences does not mean necessarily that those hard times come because of their sinfulness. Job was a righteous man, but God tried him by the afflictions and the Apostle Peter said, "though if need be we are in heaviness through manifold trials that the trying of your faith, being much more precious than gold, though it be tried by fire, may be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ."
Therefore, our purpose in trials should be to cling fast to Christ through all of them, and wait for Him.
I am gone for the day now. Enough of that.
I don't spend much time on this forum, primarily because I don't have my own computer; secondarily because it has much stuff on it which is grievous to my spirit. I don't enjoy perusing so many gross distortions of Scripture, especially when I could never respond to all of them and when I do respond, it is passed over or misrepresented. Then when I am gone, as I frequently am, some of you leap to say, "What the matta you? You skeered? You runaway cause you no can answer?"
I have every answer you people need. Reformed doctrine is square with Scripture, and I can prove it is.
BIG FINN--As I suspected earlier, the straight thoughts you had on Scripture were loaded with conclusions you said nothing about at the time. So, as I said yesterday, my agreement with your statements in general did not in anyway bind me to agree with you on conclusions you might draw from them. Your idea of God being chargeable with selfishness as a consequence of some point of His decree is without basis. You charge God with the foolishness of selfishness. Your charge is false.
I recap your argument briefly so you can be sure that I am addressing your point--You argued that for God to decree something for His own glory which was harmful to someone else was selfishness on His part. Humor follows:La te da, Big Finn--
First, My post #515 on page 35 would have put much of this to rest if it had been considered and fully understood. I will go into greater detail, but before doing so, I want to apologise. I don't like to weary people with posts that are longer than one screen. In this case, it is necessary to use more space.
At times OVers and Arminians are very insistent on man's freewill--OVers especially. God's will, they think, must bend to theirs or else they have no free will. It is interestiing that they think THEIR freewill should have the right and power to preempt GOD'S will, authority and right to govern in accord with His decree--but that is a side issue right now that I will not go further into, except to agree with both Arminians and OVers that man DOES HAVE FREE WILL. Reformed people just believe the scripture concerning man's free will--that it, contrary to Arminian and OV presumptions, is without the power to over ride God's decree; which, by the way, is from everlasting and is, without fail, fulfilled by His all encompassing, absolute providential rule over heaven and earth; falling out at the precise time according to His eternal purpose--"For the Lord has purposed, and who can annul it? His hand is stretched out, and who can turn it back?"
Yet, for all their insistence on man's freewill, they can be very forgetful of it when God is pleased to leave them to their own devices, as He often does; as when Jesus said to Judas, "What you do, do quickly!" Or to the pharisees--"fill up then the measure of your father's wickedness." What a dreadful sentence that is. It announces an end of common grace toward them; an end to that grace which He at times shows to even the most wicked of men as He restrains the evil that is in their own natures.
Once He has removed that restraint upon them, they--of their own freewill and wicked nature--fall, no longer being restrained. Given "up to vile passions,"(Rom.1:26)they plummet--"in the lusts of their hearts" (Ro.1:24) headlong into iniquity.
Men often say of those upon whom God has pronounced that sentence, "If those people don't stop that, God will surely bring judgement upon them." Let the truth be known--their conduct testifies that God's judgment has ALREADY fallen upon them; as it fell upon the gentiles spoken of in Romans chapter one--"Therefore God gave them up..." (verse 24); "for this reason God gave them up..." (verse 26); "...God gave them over..." (verse 28)
God's common grace is His to dispense as He pleases. No man merits it. God would not be unjust--NOR SELFISH, BIG FINN--to leave all men in the misery of their own nature without His gracious restraint. Grace is a gift--an unmerited gift, and offences against the Spirit of grace come at a heavy cost--
As it did with those who disobeyed Him in Old Testament times: "But my people would not heed my voice, and Israel would none of me. So I gave them over to their own stubborn heart, to walk in their own counsels." (Ps. 81:10,11); then their sons dare react with anger when Stephen reminds them of God's JUST judgment against them: Acts 7--"our fathers would not obey, but rejected. And in their hearts they turned back to Egypt, saying to Aaron, 'make us gods to go before us; as for this Moses who brought us out of the land of Egypt, we know not what has become of him.' And they made a calf in those days, offered sacrifices to the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands. THEN GOD TURNED AND GAVE THEM UP to worship the host of heaven, as it is written in the book of the prophets: "Did you offer me slaughtered animals and sacrifices during forty years in the wilderness, O house of Israel? You also took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, images which you made to worship; AND I WILL CARRY YOU AWAY TO BABYLON...You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You do always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you...and they cast him out of the city and stoned him."
BIG FINN--from your objection, I gather that YOU think God has no right to execute judgement upon people by leaving them to their own devices; perhaps to rape a woman. Let me assure you, sir--God would be just to leave man absolutely and totally alone in the morass of his wickedness, with all its filth and consequences AND get glory to himself by demonstrating His just and holy wrath against them for every transgression of His holy law; but He is longsuffering and gracious. You have seen nothing, by comparison, of what this earth would be without His gracious restraining hand. And you, sir, as are all of us, a much more a decent man than what you would otherwise be without His restraint upon the nature within you--"the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked--who can know it?"
We cannot know it, we cannot realize it, because God graciously
restrains what we are in ourselves; but if you want a look at what we ALL are in ourselves as a consequence of the Adamic nature, which we all alike EQUALLY inherited from adam, just consider the catalog of sins which have, over time, erupted upon the earth--Hitler, Stalin, Idi Amin, Ted Bundy, Jim Jones, Jeffry Dahmer--enough of men's names--consider the long train of wickednesses detailed in Romans chapter one. We ALL alike inherited the fallen nature of Adam. Consider all these cataloged wickednesses and ask yourself, "am I, in myself, better than these? Or is it that God has, in His longsuffering and graciousness, been good to me and restrained me??
Remember this, you who think well of yourselves, it is God "who maketh thee to differ from another..."1Cor. 4:7 You (WE) have nothing to glory of in ourselves. As Paul said, "for I know that in me, that is in my flesh, there dwelleth no good thing." We are all alike the sons of Adam, and what has befallen any other could have befallen us also, were it not for His wondrous goodness and graciousness toward us, for "the hearts of the sons of men is full of evil and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that, they go to the dead."
The leper was not clean until he looked upon himself and found--realized-- that he was totally covered with rotten flesh; and you are not quit of your self-righteousness nor are you a truly grateful child of God until you realize that, just like the leper, you were before totally undone; in yourself, nothing but a sinner incapable of anything other than gross disobedience, subject at any moment to falling into any of the many sins cataloged, many of which disobediences the God of heaven and earth spared you from even as you went about with a heart of disbelief. It is God who has made you (US) differ all your life long by the measure of grace which He has graciously given. You have in yourself not been better than ANYONE--Hitler, Stalin, or Jeffry Dahmer.
Fancy yourself better than others, reject the testimony of god's word against you, think that you are well enough without Him, have no need of Him, nor have any reason to be grateful to Him for restraining the evil of your own nature, and the day will come when you will be cast off into eternity without Him, left to forever plummet into the vile vat of wretched wickedness, large as an ocean, to which you will never find either a bank or bottom. "The heart of man is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked--who can know it?"
And you dare think, Big Finn, that after God has dispensed so much unmerited favor, so much common grace to evil men, that He has no RIGHT TO AT TIMES ALLOW MEN UPON EARTH TO SUFFER THAT WHICH THEY TRULY DESERVE AND BE CONSUMED BY THE WICKEDNESS THAT ROILS WITHIN THEIR BREASTS SO THAT HE CAN EXERCISE JUDGEMENT UPON THEM BY LEAVING THEM UNDER THE WEIGHT OF THEIR OWN INIQUITY AND GET GLORY TO HIMSELF BY DEMONSTRATING HIS JUST WRATH AGAINST THEM ?
It is very fitting that when God's longsuffering is at an end that He exercise judgement against them by leaving them to their own devices which, in themselves, serve as judgement. As He said in one place, "your own backslidings will reprove you."
I must add to the previous thoughts that the fact that people may go through hard providences does not mean necessarily that those hard times come because of their sinfulness. Job was a righteous man, but God tried him by the afflictions and the Apostle Peter said, "though if need be we are in heaviness through manifold trials that the trying of your faith, being much more precious than gold, though it be tried by fire, may be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ."
Therefore, our purpose in trials should be to cling fast to Christ through all of them, and wait for Him.
I am gone for the day now. Enough of that.
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