ARGH!!! Calvinism makes me furious!!!
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
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boogerhead
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Lamentations 3:37
Who [is] He [that] saith, and it cometh to pass, [when] the Lord commandeth [it] not?
hmmm...let's think...if God doesn't command it then the "who" that were looking for here is NO ONE...nothing is done without God's providence.
Lamentations 3:38
Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
that is, adversity and prosperity.
Amos 3:6
Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
now these verses show us that as Christians we will endure hardships, adversity, etc....we will be disciplined by our Father...
Hebrews 12:3-13
3: For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
4: Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
5: And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6: For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7: If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8: But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9: Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10: For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11: Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
12: Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
13: And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
Do you ever read these in context?????
These are not very good proof texts for you....
Lamentations 3:33 For He does not afflict willingly, Nor grieve the children of men. 34 To crush under one’s feet All the prisoners of the earth, 35 To turn aside the justice due a man Before the face of the Most High, 36 Or subvert a man in his cause — The Lord does not approve. 37 Who is he who speaks and it comes to pass, When the Lord has not commanded it? 38 Is it not from the mouth of the Most High That woe and well-being proceed? 39 Why should a living man complain, A man for the punishment of his sins? 40 Let us search out and examine our ways, And turn back to the LORD;
In other words.....
Do good and God will bless you, do bad and God will not bless you and you have no reason to complain since God has fully made the consequences clear.
God_Is_Truth
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**Warning, Warning**
Becoming a calvinist can be hazardous to your sense of logic, reasoning and common sense.
boogerhead
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i read this whole chapter...let's back up even more...this whole book contains bold complaints against God and cries for mercy...God's rightousness is never questioned but the writer pours out his grief and discouragement freely, having gone through great adversity...
Lamentations 3:15-20
15:He hath filled me with bitterness, he hath sated me with wormwood.
16: He hath also broken my teeth with gravel stones; he hath covered me with ashes.
17: And thou hast removed my soul far off from peace; I forgat prosperity.
18: And I said, My strength is perished, and mine expectation from Jehovah.
19: Remember mine affliction and my misery, the wormwood and the gall.
20: My soul hath them still in remembrance, and is bowed down within me.
but in the agony of adversity he confesses God's love saying, "Because of the Lord's great love we are not consumed, for his compassions never fail. They are new every morning; great is your faithfulness..." (3:22-23)
Lamentations 3:21-31
21: This I recall to my mind; therefore have I hope.
22: [It is of] Jehovah's lovingkindnesses that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.
23: They are new every morning; great is thy faithfulness.
24: Jehovah is my portion, saith my soul; therefore will I hope in him.
25: Jehovah is good unto them that wait for him, to the soul that seeketh him.
26: It is good that a man should hope and quietly wait for the salvation of Jehovah.
27: It is good for a man that he bear the yoke in his youth.
28: Let him sit alone and keep silence, because he hath laid it upon him.
29: Let him put his mouth in the dust, if so be there may be hope.
30: Let him give his cheek to him that smiteth him; let him be filled full with reproach.
31: For the Lord will not cast off for ever.
we see that God doesn't take pleasure in afflicting, but does it of necessity for our amendment...
Lamentations 3:32
32: For though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses.
33: For he doth not afflict willingly, nor grieve the children of men.
34: To crush under foot all the prisoners of the earth,
35: To turn aside the right of a man before the face of the Most High,
36: To subvert a man in his cause, the Lord approveth not.
now you can't leave this next part out...and of course sinners have no reason to complain...but neither do the saints...that's why i included scripture in which the saints are persecuted and afflicted as a means for God to discipline them...
and these scriptures were in response to your comment:
here we see from the same mouth that comes good also comes evil...
Lamentations 3:37-39
37: Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not?
38: Out of the mouth of the Most High cometh there not evil and good?
39: Wherefore doth a living man complain, a man for the punishment of his sins?
God seeks from us not nice words or just "good" actions but an intimate relationship, even and especially when that relationship is being refined by adversity...
Lamentations 3:40-42
40: Let us search and try our ways, and turn again to Jehovah.
41: Let us lift up our heart with our hands unto God in the heavens.
"doing good" doesn't equate God's blessing as you so elementarily put it...don't overlook the passages i included from Hebrews in an earlier post where "good" people are served adversity by God...
1Way
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BH - You are stating nothing new, and Knight already addressed this too. 39 explains the sort of adversity God had in mind, God chastizes those whom He loves. It is always
But you pervert this issue from being a righteous act against sin and evil. There are two stages to this scene. First is the sin being done, that is moral evil, the second is God punishing people for sinning, that is righteous punishment. Evil and righteousness are antonyms, not synonyms. But you do not make such a distinction, you are happy to mix and match them depending on how you want to look at it. Thus you say
But God's word is only morally clear, we are refined by the righteous chastising, not the evil that we do or experience. For you, since it seems you have no problem saying that God is in control of everything, you have no problem accepting that God uses evil or sin to His glory, and that implies that if we are godly, then when we do evil and sin, that is part of the "all things" that work together for good, so we are being refined or chastened by God because of the evil that God uses to bring about His glory. But God's word does not say that, it says that God (righteously) "punishes the wicked", the implication is that sin is bad and destructive, but God's chastening is good because of punishing against sin. So the only "adversity" that is benefiting the person is when God is righteously opposing sin.
God does not work all things without exception for good. Evil exists, and evil never produces good, never.
- GOOD
- BAD
But you pervert this issue from being a righteous act against sin and evil. There are two stages to this scene. First is the sin being done, that is moral evil, the second is God punishing people for sinning, that is righteous punishment. Evil and righteousness are antonyms, not synonyms. But you do not make such a distinction, you are happy to mix and match them depending on how you want to look at it. Thus you say
- God seeks from us not nice words or just "good" actions but an intimate relationship, even and especially when that relationship is being refined by adversity...
But God's word is only morally clear, we are refined by the righteous chastising, not the evil that we do or experience. For you, since it seems you have no problem saying that God is in control of everything, you have no problem accepting that God uses evil or sin to His glory, and that implies that if we are godly, then when we do evil and sin, that is part of the "all things" that work together for good, so we are being refined or chastened by God because of the evil that God uses to bring about His glory. But God's word does not say that, it says that God (righteously) "punishes the wicked", the implication is that sin is bad and destructive, but God's chastening is good because of punishing against sin. So the only "adversity" that is benefiting the person is when God is righteously opposing sin.
God does not work all things without exception for good. Evil exists, and evil never produces good, never.
- Ro 3:8 And [why] not [say], "Let us do evil that good may come"? ——as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just.
Can't you see the blazing contradiction in your logic when you make statements like this????
You say God decrees that we sin.
THEN...
You say "God doesn't take pleasure in afflicting".
So basically you are saying.... God doesn't take pleasure in the things He decrees. :hammer:
How can you justify this contradiction of logic?
Rolf Ernst
New member
Knight--please calm down. All Boogerhead said was that God does not take pleasure in afflicting, but He does it for our correction.
Then you threw a fit. Does that mean that you haven't corrected your children? Or does it mean that when you did, you took pleasure in it?
Haven't you ever done something necessary for your children which you wish had not been necessary?
It only means that God's correction is not given with a spiteful or vicious heart.
Furthermore, God does NOT decree sin. His decree is according to His immutable purpose which is always holy, just, and good and ALWAYS COMES TO PASS. Sin issues from the heart of men whose motivations, even when they are acting in accord with what God has purposed, are contrary to God's motive in those events.
There are numerous instances in Scripture wherein men perform exactly that which God has purposed, but since they acted with wicked intent, God therefore judges and punishes them for their wicked motives.
It is not merely the ACT that counts, but the motive. That is why we read in Scripture that God "weighs" the hearts of men.
Then you threw a fit. Does that mean that you haven't corrected your children? Or does it mean that when you did, you took pleasure in it?
Haven't you ever done something necessary for your children which you wish had not been necessary?
It only means that God's correction is not given with a spiteful or vicious heart.
Furthermore, God does NOT decree sin. His decree is according to His immutable purpose which is always holy, just, and good and ALWAYS COMES TO PASS. Sin issues from the heart of men whose motivations, even when they are acting in accord with what God has purposed, are contrary to God's motive in those events.
There are numerous instances in Scripture wherein men perform exactly that which God has purposed, but since they acted with wicked intent, God therefore judges and punishes them for their wicked motives.
It is not merely the ACT that counts, but the motive. That is why we read in Scripture that God "weighs" the hearts of men.
Rolf Ernst
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The longer I live and the more OVers and Arminians I encounter, the more I am convinced of this truth: "A man can receive nothing except it be given him from heaven." Incidentally: Jesus said this after some departed from Him because they were offended by statements He made that stressed God's sovereignty.
You OVers and Arminians need to think about that!
"Known unto god are all His works from the beginning of the world."
"For He is in one mind, and who can turn him, and what His soul desires, even that He does."
He is so much greater in glory and power than the glory and power which Arminians and OVers are willing to ascribe to Him.
"Because that when they knew God, they glorified Him not as God."
The Arminian/Ov heresies are not to the exact depth of evil expressed in the verse above because their refusal to ascribe to Him the full glory due Him is out of ignorance; but nevertheless, they are dangerously close because the testimony of Scripture is clear enough to correct them, and they have had sufficient warnings by people who know the truth. They are therefore treading dangerously close to bearing the same guilt as those spoken of in that verse.
You OVers and Arminians need to think about that!
"Known unto god are all His works from the beginning of the world."
"For He is in one mind, and who can turn him, and what His soul desires, even that He does."
He is so much greater in glory and power than the glory and power which Arminians and OVers are willing to ascribe to Him.
"Because that when they knew God, they glorified Him not as God."
The Arminian/Ov heresies are not to the exact depth of evil expressed in the verse above because their refusal to ascribe to Him the full glory due Him is out of ignorance; but nevertheless, they are dangerously close because the testimony of Scripture is clear enough to correct them, and they have had sufficient warnings by people who know the truth. They are therefore treading dangerously close to bearing the same guilt as those spoken of in that verse.
Calm down???
"threw a fit."???
What are you talking about? Rolf I am tad worried about your sense of perception.
Yes, but I do not decree EVERY action and EVERY movement that my child makes.
Therein lies the irrationality of your position.
Again... I do not decree the wills of my children.
Do you?
YES or NO... God decrees EVERYTHING?
Poly
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Please explain why God would ordain that a woman be violently raped or that a child be molested is for his/her correction?
When a parent corrects a child, the parent does not have to sin or cause somebody else to sin in order for the child to be corrected. Why do you put God in a box and say that He must cause somebody else to sin in order for correction to take place? Isn't He powerful enough to correct without causing somebody to do these awful acts of sin that I mentioned above, which He says He hates?
Rolf Ernst
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You people pick on Z Man unmercifully because he is less than clear in some of his statements, and sometimes he uses unscriptural words that are less than precise, allowing mistaken impressions to form as a consequence. Then sometimes he says things like referring to God's providences and ways being illogical. I think he doesn't mean that God is illogical, but that God's ways are far above out of our sight to the point that men cannot comprehend some of His ways, and they therefore seem illogical to men.
I know that there are examples in scripture of God doing certain things that OVers and Arminians have said God CANNOT do because, they think, it would make Him guilty of sin. Lo, and behold, there are the examples of Him doing precisely such things PLUS along with them, there are explanations which would clear up men's confusion on such issues if they would just honor God and His word; but raher than pray, "Lord, open my eyes to comprehend," they just deny, avoid, and misrepresent. Shameful! Don't letum getcha down Z man.
I know that there are examples in scripture of God doing certain things that OVers and Arminians have said God CANNOT do because, they think, it would make Him guilty of sin. Lo, and behold, there are the examples of Him doing precisely such things PLUS along with them, there are explanations which would clear up men's confusion on such issues if they would just honor God and His word; but raher than pray, "Lord, open my eyes to comprehend," they just deny, avoid, and misrepresent. Shameful! Don't letum getcha down Z man.
Rolf Ernst
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Poly's #513--Mankind, as a consequence of original sin, is subject to all the ills of a fallen society. God is under no obligation to deliver ANYONE from those ills. Nevertheless, by His common grace He often restrains the evil in men--"He frustrates the devices of the crafty so that their hands cannot carry out their plans. He catches the wise in their own craftiness, and the counsel of the cunning comes quickly upon them," (Ps. 33:10,11).
God's common grace toward men whereby He restrains the evil that men would do is not deserved by men. They have rejected Him. They cast out His name as evil, and rather than submit to His Word, they pick it up only to criticise it and be the judge of it rather than submit to its judgement upon them and their actions. They are deserving not of God's mercy in delivering them from the evils that roil and broil out of their own hearts, but of suffering the full consequences of all their evil natures combined.
"GOD HAS MADE ALL THINGS FOR HIMSELF--EVEN THE WICKED FOR THE DAY OF EVIL."
"EVEN THE WRATH OF MAN SHALL PRAISE THEE AND THE REMAINDER OF WRATH, YOU WILL RESTRAIN."
The verse immediately above tells us that in those instances wherein God chooses not to restrain the evil that men, of their own evil natures, would do He works in some way to His own glory. Neither you, Poly, nor I am fit to judge Him for His providence concerning evil. If men got what they in themselves deserve, there would be no restraint upon evil at all, and earth would become a veritable hell.
Now here is a challenge to you, Poly and to every other person who would dare impugn evil to God because of any of his providences--what have you yourself done in regard to the evils to which men are prone? God's word says that rape is worthy of death. If we lived under theonomic law rape would be a capital offense. If it were, and the sentence were executed swiftly, there would be far fewer rapes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHAT DO YOU DO IN REGARD TO RAPE? DO YOU REJECT THE RULE OF GOD OVER OUR SOCIETY BY THEONOMIC LAW??
What an outrage!! We live in a country so wicked that men rebel at the thought of being under laws that are in accord with God's law, yet when they are confronted with the evils which come from within their own natures, they dare to rail against God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What an outrage!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What gross absurdity!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
God's common grace toward men whereby He restrains the evil that men would do is not deserved by men. They have rejected Him. They cast out His name as evil, and rather than submit to His Word, they pick it up only to criticise it and be the judge of it rather than submit to its judgement upon them and their actions. They are deserving not of God's mercy in delivering them from the evils that roil and broil out of their own hearts, but of suffering the full consequences of all their evil natures combined.
"GOD HAS MADE ALL THINGS FOR HIMSELF--EVEN THE WICKED FOR THE DAY OF EVIL."
"EVEN THE WRATH OF MAN SHALL PRAISE THEE AND THE REMAINDER OF WRATH, YOU WILL RESTRAIN."
The verse immediately above tells us that in those instances wherein God chooses not to restrain the evil that men, of their own evil natures, would do He works in some way to His own glory. Neither you, Poly, nor I am fit to judge Him for His providence concerning evil. If men got what they in themselves deserve, there would be no restraint upon evil at all, and earth would become a veritable hell.
Now here is a challenge to you, Poly and to every other person who would dare impugn evil to God because of any of his providences--what have you yourself done in regard to the evils to which men are prone? God's word says that rape is worthy of death. If we lived under theonomic law rape would be a capital offense. If it were, and the sentence were executed swiftly, there would be far fewer rapes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHAT DO YOU DO IN REGARD TO RAPE? DO YOU REJECT THE RULE OF GOD OVER OUR SOCIETY BY THEONOMIC LAW??
What an outrage!! We live in a country so wicked that men rebel at the thought of being under laws that are in accord with God's law, yet when they are confronted with the evils which come from within their own natures, they dare to rail against God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What an outrage!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What gross absurdity!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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While I'm not an OVer and probably not a full Arminian either, I do know of a Closed theist by the name of Rolf who misrepresented me, and has been steadfastly ignoring my posts after admitting I am scripturally correct. Why is that, Rolf?
You thought you could confound me by misrepresenting me and then had to admit I was scriptually correct. Why now that I've shown Calvinism to misrepresent God's character do you now ignore me? Isn't that kinda like a cat on a hot tin roof, Rolf?
Rolf Ernst
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I'm not ignoring you, big finn. I don't read all the posts. To what what would you like an answer ?
CORRECTION, BIG FINN. YOU HAVE NOT IN ANYWAY SHOWN THAT CALVINISM MISREPRESENTS GOD'S CHARACTER. IF YOU WANT TO MAKE that CLAIM, BE SPECIFIC. BBEEEE SPPEECIFFIICCC.
CORRECTION, BIG FINN. YOU HAVE NOT IN ANYWAY SHOWN THAT CALVINISM MISREPRESENTS GOD'S CHARACTER. IF YOU WANT TO MAKE that CLAIM, BE SPECIFIC. BBEEEE SPPEECIFFIICCC.
Rolf Ernst
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BIG FINN --AGAin--what is YOUR question. I have no reason to dodge any question you might have. If you want to question me personally, put my name in large type so i will see it. So many OVers and Arminians post things that are greivous to the spirit that I just skim over lightly till something hits my eye that needs a response.
Rolf Ernst
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BIG FINN--my time on the computer forums is limited. Speak up, or expect to be answered sometime this weekend.
NEVER, NEVER, NEVER flatter yourself that I am hesitant to engage you. I just don't sit in front of this box all day, and I am certainly not willing to wade through the trash that some call OV or Arminian theology.
NEVER, NEVER, NEVER flatter yourself that I am hesitant to engage you. I just don't sit in front of this box all day, and I am certainly not willing to wade through the trash that some call OV or Arminian theology.
Sure I have.
Go look at post #486. In it is the quote from John Calvin that says God ordains every action and motion of man.
Now when you do read it remember that you have agreed that to cause any action that harms another person just to make yourself look good is selfishness. You have also agreed that this definition is something that no one could disagree with.
Calvin, and all Calvinists on this board, have stated that God ordains even rape so that it might glorify Himself. This fits the description of selfishness that you agreed to for rape causes harm to the victim. Thus you are ascribing sinful motives and actions to God.
You also agreed that any act of selfishness was at odds with the character of Christ, and that the character of God and Christ were express images of each other. In the ordaining of all manner of evil acts(sinful acts) God would not be in harmony with the character of His own Son, who is also God.
Do you not see where Calvinism leads?
Go look at post #486. In it is the quote from John Calvin that says God ordains every action and motion of man.
Now when you do read it remember that you have agreed that to cause any action that harms another person just to make yourself look good is selfishness. You have also agreed that this definition is something that no one could disagree with.
Calvin, and all Calvinists on this board, have stated that God ordains even rape so that it might glorify Himself. This fits the description of selfishness that you agreed to for rape causes harm to the victim. Thus you are ascribing sinful motives and actions to God.
You also agreed that any act of selfishness was at odds with the character of Christ, and that the character of God and Christ were express images of each other. In the ordaining of all manner of evil acts(sinful acts) God would not be in harmony with the character of His own Son, who is also God.
Do you not see where Calvinism leads?