ARGH!!! Calvinism makes me furious!!!

[1Way]

GIT - Z Man will sound like a Calvinist until he thinks that is going to far, and then he will sound like an Arminian to try to save face. He wants both, God controls everything, and man is responsible for his actions even though God makes it all happen, both.

Great job with the example of the conjunction "but". I wonder what they would say if it was swapped end for end?

The Lord directs his steps, But a man's heart plans his way.

If said that way, by necessity, man would do all the planning, and God would do no directing.

But

We both know what Z Man would say to that, it does not say it the other way around, because God is wise and said what He meant.

So, I went about to find a corresponding example, where the first part of the conjoining "but" part is God doing something, and the second part is man doing something. Consider the following with Z Man's strange view of the conjunction "but".

• Z Man's idea is that the first part is wrong, ________ but ________ the second part is right.

• Pr 10:29 The way of the LORD [is] strength for the upright, But destruction [will come] to the workers of iniquity.

• Pr 11:1 Dishonest scales [are] an abomination to the LORD, But a just weight [is] His delight.

• Pr 12:2 A good [man] obtains favor from the LORD, But a man of wicked intentions He will condemn.

___________________________ Z Man's logic is anti-congruent to scripture.


And I saved the best for last, because it is refuting of Z Man twice with one solid piece of scripture.

• Pr 11:20 Those who are of a perverse heart [are] an abomination to the LORD, But [the] blameless in their ways [are] His delight.

"The blameless in their ways", that indicates that at least some people are (to some true extent) innocent and as such, are a delight to God. Apparently Z Man is just not accepting a consistent view from the entire word of God, more important to him than conforming his faith to the word of God is the Pagan classical notion of "divine immutability".

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

Z Man,

if God directs everything, and ordains everything, then we don't plan anything. there would only be God's one plan, decreed from all eternity of how things are going to be.

I don't know what else to tell you GIT. It may seem contridictory, but the Bible proclaims it nonetheless. We are responsible, yet God is sovereign. They are both great truths of the Bible.

Jeremiah 10:23
O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.

Proverbs 16:9
A man's heart plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps.

Proverbs 19:21
There are many plans in a man's heart, Nevertheless the Lord's counsel--that will stand.

Proverbs 21:1-2
The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, Like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes. Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, But the Lord weighs the hearts.

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by 1Way

GIT - Z Man will sound like a Calvinist until he thinks that is going to far, and then he will sound like an Arminian to try to save face. He wants both, God controls everything, and man is responsible for his actions even though God makes it all happen, both.

Because both are great truths taught in Scripture.

OV'ers/Arminians toss out the Sovereignty of God to cling to only one truth - that man is responsible.

Great job with the example of the conjunction "but". I wonder what they would say if it was swapped end for end?

The Lord directs his steps, But a man's heart plans his way.

If said that way, by necessity, man would do all the planning, and God would do no directing.

But

We both know what Z Man would say to that, it does not say it the other way around, because God is wise and said what He meant.

Are you trying to tell us that the verses reads "The Lord directs his steps, But a man's heart plans his way"? I don't get what you meant by any of this, or what you're trying to prove.

So, I went about to find a corresponding example, where the first part of the conjoining "but" part is God doing something, and the second part is man doing something. Consider the following with Z Man's strange view of the conjunction "but".

• Z Man's idea is that the first part is wrong, ________ but ________ the second part is right.

• Pr 10:29 The way of the LORD [is] strength for the upright, But destruction [will come] to the workers of iniquity.

• Pr 11:1 Dishonest scales [are] an abomination to the LORD, But a just weight [is] His delight.

• Pr 12:2 A good [man] obtains favor from the LORD, But a man of wicked intentions He will condemn.

___________________________ Z Man's logic is anti-congruent to scripture.


And I saved the best for last, because it is refuting of Z Man twice with one solid piece of scripture.

• Pr 11:20 Those who are of a perverse heart [are] an abomination to the LORD, But [the] blameless in their ways [are] His delight.

"The blameless in their ways", that indicates that at least some people are (to some true extent) innocent and as such, are a delight to God.

I believe that those whom God has mercy upon will live 'righteous' lives. But we can't do that without the power of God dwelling inside us.

I agree with those Scriptures you posted. I think you are building a huge 'strawman' here. Your assumptions are leading you down a wrong and lonely road.

It's simple really. The Scriptures teach us that God is absolutely sovereign and man is responsible at the same time.

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

This is not true.

Hockey sucks!

:chuckle:

I'd have to agree with you on that one...

You are being irrational in regards to the way you are dealing with Knight and others...

What 'others'? And how in the world have I been irrational towards Knight???

The fact that you refuse to acknowledge that Knight has answered your questioned about a hundred times is irrational.

Point me to the exact post where Knight has claimed that God does indeed give people diseases, and I will stand corrected...

You are artificially holding up a conversation in order to try to make Knight look bad and its only making you look bad, that’s what I call irrational!

Trust me, I'm not trying to make Knight look bad. He's doing a good job of doing that himself. I simply want Knight to admit that he made a simple mistake. He said diseases weren't given; Scripture says they are. Now who is right?

Knight has yet to admit that he was wrong. And you supporting him ain't helping....

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by lighthouse

Calvinists-
When exactly do you say that God predestined everything? Before Earth was formed? When did He predestine Earth? When did God decide to predestine everything? Was it predestined that He would decide that? And if so, when? And was the predestined? Was it all predestined eternally? And if so, when exactly was it decided? If it was always predestined, how did God predestine it to begin with?

There was no 'time' when God had decided to predestine everything. He is eternal; he lives outside of time. To Him, the future is now, just as the past is now. He is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and end. He is the God of yesterday, today, and forever. He was, is, and is to come. He exist yesterday, today, and tomorrow, all at once.

C.S. Lewis once said that if you could imagine God as a sheet of paper, and you drew a line on that paper, than that line would represent time. To God, it is 2008 just as much as it is 1998.

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Z Man

I don't know what else to tell you GIT. It may seem contridictory, but the Bible proclaims it nonetheless. We are responsible, yet God is sovereign. They are both great truths of the Bible.

Jeremiah 10:23
O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.

Proverbs 16:9
A man's heart plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps.

Proverbs 19:21
There are many plans in a man's heart, Nevertheless the Lord's counsel--that will stand.

Proverbs 21:1-2
The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, Like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes. Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, But the Lord weighs the hearts.

you are really ok with holding a theology that even you can see is contradictory in the bible?

 

[1Way]

Z Man - I showed how your logic of was wrong by God's word. So you waffle and change the subject. You are no joy to discuss things, because, you do not remain consistent with the discussion.

We open viewers do not do as you said. We accept that God changes because that is what scripture teaches and is why we disagree with the Arminians.

My verses prove that the but does not invalidate the first part of the conjunction, it shows a contrast, it is not just exclusive to the first part.

In other words, man really does plan his ways, that is a bible truth.

And God is not glorified in any sin or evil, he is glorified in faith and a righteous reaction against evil. God is not in the rape business for His glory, He is in the faith business against all evil.

 

[Yorzhik]

Originally posted by Knight

See ya dude! :wave2:

...

Oh well... I am sure you will find another web forum to annoy.

Almost forgot about this...

To quote a famous treatise on epic struggle:

and there was much rejoicing

 

[Sozo]

Re: Re: Re: Re: AHHHHH calvinism makes me furious!!!

Re: Re: Re: Re: AHHHHH calvinism makes me furious!!!

Originally posted by karstkid

Gen 2:8 "The LORD God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden; and there He placed the man whom He had formed."

Gen 3:24 "So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life."

The Garden of Eden was a definitive place of a definitive size. The Garden was not the whole of the Earth. The biblical text simply does not say that. If the Garden of Eden was this perfect smallish place, what do you think the much larger natural world was like outside the Garden? Outside of the Garden lions ate lambs and bites from poisonous snakes killed other animals. The Fall was man getting kicked out of the Garden to the already existing imperfect natural world outside with it's death and diseases.

buzzzzz....... wrong answer, but a nice theory.

Death came into the world through sin.

"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men"

Of course, this has little to do with the subject at hand

 

[Yorzhik]

Originally posted by Z Man

:think:

Hmmm... I get it now. Knight must've e-mailed all his OV buddies.

Does this mean I've made the Sycophants-of-Knight list? :bannana: That's what I was shooting for!

Need I post the passages of Scripture again that prove you are wrong?

I'm not being rude; just honest...

No, you are being rude. Knight posted the answer to your question. In a nutshell it was: God causes disease when He is punishing the wicked. However, that does not include all disease.

So after answering your question, he posed a couple of questions in response to you.

Here are the 2 questions posed by Knight:

Z Man I have two questions for you.....

1. Z Man is there such a thing as evil?
And if so how do you define it?

2. Has any evil or bad thing ever happened in the history of creation that was not directly orchestrated by God?
And if so, can you give me an example?

These you haven't answered, but instead started up with mindless repetition and snide remarks. That is rude.

 

[1Way]

Sozo - Right, we can guess about animals dying and all that, but as for man, he had the tree of life and evidentally could have lived forever, until the fall and curse.

Also he said it was imperfect and had diseases, there is no reason to believe that the struggle for life (including death and disease) did not happen until after the fall. He is reasoning what scripture does not say. Great bible point!

 

[1Way]

Yorzhik - Z Man is running scared, he also did not answer my question too.

• Does God orchestrate (or decree or control) every event that ever happens?

Because he just got done saying that God never does sin or evil. He cannot make sense of his own beliefs. So he is probably reading 3 books right now trying to find the most clever sounding response, but the fact is, God does not cause or ordain or decree or plan or orchestrate everything to happen, evil and sin is outside of those departments, God does no sin or evil.

 

[Rolf Ernst]

G. I. T.--in post 455 my greatly misrepresent the reformed position, and I can only believe that you do so deliberately. You are against the doctrines of God's sovereignty, yet you claim liberty to say what our interepretation of a bible text is.

What hutzpah!! What hutzpah! You think you have the right to say yourself what the Calvinist's interpretation is of a text??? No doubt it is easier for you to argue against Calvinism if you can get away with appointing the Calvinist's position, but anyone who is sane can see through such tactics.

You say that the Calvinist's interpretation is that "God plans a man's way, but the Lord directs his steps." Are you sane? Do you think you can deceive either God or man with that transparent deceit?

I am a Calvinist. You falsely accuse all Calvinists.

The Calvinist never adds words to texts. We deal with Scripture as it is. THAT IS: "A man's heart plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps." Since you took unjust liberties against your fellow man by defining his interpretation for others, maybe (fat chance) you will have time to pay attention to what a Calvinist says in regard to that text---How many times have you left home intending to do a certain thing and ended up doing something different?? You had planned your way, but the LORD directed your steps.

Two days ago, I left home to get a harmony of Samuel, Kings, and Chronicles. I had eartlier asked my sister if I could pick up something for her along the way. She said no.

The bookstore did not have a copy of that harmony, but I noticed a handy sized Strong's Concordance. My sister had been using a large, unwieldy copy of Strongs, so I decided to get the smaller one for her.
Then as I passed through Pennys on the way out of the mall, I noticed a sign that said "cookware," so I decided to go into that section of the store. As I was approaching cookwares, I asked myself, "why do I want to go here?" Within 15 seconds I was there, and the first thing that caught my eye was a springform cake pan.
Then I knew why I had wanted to go into housewares. I had forgotten about it, but my sister had said just the day before that she needed one.

I took the concordance and cake pan to my sister and said, "I thought I was going to get something for myself, but I guess the Lord was just sending me on an errand for you." Therefore she can be thankful to Him for those things and for a brother who delights to serve Him by running errands for Him.

"A man's heart plans his way, but the LORD directs his steps." The incident above describes a Calvinist's understanding of that verse. Don't let those whose conscience is so callous that they dare misrepresent someone else's doctrinal position tell you otherwise.

In this one day's incident we see how God directs both the heart and the steps. I had no earlier intention of going into Pennys cookware section, but there was something there my sister needed, so the Lord put an urge in my heart to go into that section of the store which baffled me until I saw the cake pan.

Notice that my own heart had planned a trip for a purpose that did not come to fruition, but the LORD was directing my steps for an errand for my sister. My intent was not realized, but God's intent came to pass. I do not mean by this that all of men's intents fail, but that NONE of God's intents fail.

 

[Poly]

Originally posted by Z Man

It's simple really. The Scriptures teach us that God is absolutely sovereign and man is responsible at the same time.

This is simple? I wish so much that Calvinists would be courageous enough to at least be honest about this. Come on, really, how can God be in control of all of man's actions (I'm sure this is what is meant by sovereign) yet man is totally responsible for them? At least admit that this is anything but simple.

When this concept was introduced to me for the first time as a Calvinist, I can remember questioning it in my mind as any human being with a couple of braincells would naturally do. Immediately I was bombarded with stuff like "It's a profound truth" and "These are the deep things of God". It was insinutated that the most enlightened would be the ones who were able to say that it made sense. So I remember from that point on thinking in my gutt (though I'd never admit it) "Ok, I get it. I need to make it seem as if it's so simple to understand so that I will come across as more "insightful" about the whole confusing mess. So I said it was simple but in reality I was being intellectually dishonest. Not something I'm proud of. :nono:

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Rolf Ernst

G. I. T.--in post 455 my greatly misrepresent the reformed position, and I can only believe that you do so deliberately. You are against the doctrines of God's sovereignty, yet you claim liberty to say what our interepretation of a bible text is.

What hutzpah!! What hutzpah! You think you have the right to say yourself what the Calvinist's interpretation is of a text??? No doubt it is easier for you to argue against Calvinism if you can get away with appointing the Calvinist's position, but anyone who is sane can see through such tactics.

You say that the Calvinist's interpretation is that "God plans a man's way, but the Lord directs his steps." Are you sane? Do you think you can deceive either God or man with that transparent deceit?

I am a Calvinist. You falsely accuse all Calvinists.

The Calvinist never adds words to texts. We deal with Scripture as it is. THAT IS: "A man's heart plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps." Since you took unjust liberties against your fellow man by defining his interpretation for others, maybe (fat chance) you will have time to pay attention to what a Calvinist says in regard to that text---How many times have you left home intending to do a certain thing and ended up doing something different?? You had planned your way, but the LORD directed your steps.

Two days ago, I left home to get a harmony of Samuel, Kings, and Chronicles. I had eartlier asked my sister if I could pick up something for her along the way. She said no.

The bookstore did not have a copy of that harmony, but I noticed a handy sized Strong's Concordance. My sister had been using a large, unwieldy copy of Strongs, so I decided to get the smaller one for her.
Then as I passed through Pennys on the way out of the mall, I noticed a sign that said "cookware," so I decided to go into that section of the store. As I was approaching cookwares, I asked myself, "why do I want to go here?" Within 15 seconds I was there, and the first thing that caught my eye was a springform cake pan.
Then I knew why I had wanted to go into housewares. I had forgotten about it, but my sister had said just the day before that she needed one.

I took the concordance and cake pan to my sister and said, "I thought I was going to get something for myself, but I guess the Lord was just sending me on an errand for you. Therefore be thankful to Him for these and for a brother who delights to serve Him by running errands for Him."

"A man's heart plans his way, but the LORD directs his steps." The incident above describes a Calvinist's understanding of that verse. Don't let those whose conscience is so callous that they dare misrepresent someone else's doctrinal position tell you otherwise.

“Nothing is more absurd than to think anything at all is done but by the ordination of God….Every action and motion of every creature is so governed by the hidden counsel of God, that nothing can come to pass, but what was ordained by Him….The wills of men are so governed by the will of God, that they are carried on straight to the mark which He has fore-ordained” (Cal. Inst., book 1, chapter 16, sect. 3).

do you believe this is true?

if yes (and as a calvinist you should), then what is wrong with this statement

if God directs everything, and ordains everything, then we don't plan anything. there would only be God's one plan, decreed from all eternity of how things are going to be.

and if that is true, then the verse that says "a man plans his ways" cannot be literally true. do you understand this?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

Knight,

would you be so kind as to direct me to where you clarified your position in regards to the original post? or if you'd rather, perhaps you could just restate here so people would not have to look through all 30 pages or so of this thread to find it.

thanks

OK... this is just plain bizarre.

I went back and read this whole thread and frankly I think the context of the discussion is unmistakable. However.... I guess there are some that are more interested in distraction than actually facing the issue.

Let me state for the final time....

God punishes the wicked in all sorts of ways! Disease is child's play! In the Bible God might just strike you dead on the spot! He might wipe out your family and your village.

When people reject His direct commands God wastes no time handing out His punishments. Therefore in the Bible we find God punishing the wicked or the rebellious in a variety of ways.

But here is the rub....
Z Man and the like tell us the EVERY sickness and EVERY disease and EVERY death are orchestrated by God.

This view makes no sense!

We do not find God claiming responsibility for EVERY disease and EVERY sickness and EVERY death.

The Bible says that disease, sickness and death are due to sin that was brought into the through Adam.

The Bible says that if we follow God and His word we will prosper and be healthy.

Proverbs 3:7 Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear the LORD and depart from evil. 8 It will be health to your flesh, And strength to your bones.

Proverbs 13:17 A wicked messenger falls into trouble, But a faithful ambassador brings health.

Z Man preaches that WE ALL follow God's will (in fact we cannot help but follow God's will) yet God still makes us sick and gives us diseases in every instance throughout all of history. This concept is a DIRECT contradiction to what God says in the Bible.

 

[Rolf Ernst]

G. I. T. --Your post 475 is false, false, false. It is contrary to what the Word of God says, and it is false. It is false because God works both through the instrumentality of men and against the efforts of men.
He works always in a way that does not destroy the freewill of men. And it doesn't matter whether men understand it or not. The imbecility of the human mind never deprives Him of His purpose.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by Rolf Ernst

G. I. T. --Your post 475 is false, false, false. It is contrary to what the Word of God says, and it is false. It is false because God works both through the instrumentality of men and against the efforts of men.
He works always in a way that does not destroy the freewill of men. And it doesn't matter whether men understand it or not. The imbecility of the human mind never deprives Him of His purpose.

For the highlighted portion read, "it doesn't matter if it is self contradictory and irrational. It doesn't matter if it makes any sense."

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by Hilston
Jim originally wrote: If it is true that the Open View God wants as many people saved as possible, and if it is true that miraculous interventions tend to repel rather than attract followers, then it is reasonable to think He would surreptitiously intervene only in those cases where the prolonged life of an innocent person might provide further opportunities for them to believe in Jesus.

Why greater? And even if that were true, wouldn’t it be worth the risk?

Why do you ask questions that I answer in the very next sentence?

Really? If that’s true, then how do people accept Christ? Out of their evil nature?

What does this question even mean? Do you not understand what it means to have a evil nature? It does not mean that people are completely incapable of doing anything that isn't evil it just means that that's what they do most of the time; it’s what comes most naturally.

Let me see if I understand your logic. Roughly 3,000 people died on 9/11. Let’s say, just for the sake of discussion, that God’s secret intervention could have prevented the deaths of 2,750 of them. Let’s further suppose that 500 of those people were already believers. That leaves 2,250 unsaved people who may become believers or may become more evil than they were before. Let’s say only one person out of 2,250 becomes a believer as an indirect result of his life being prolonged by God’s intervention. 2,249 people end up in hell, but one is saved who otherwise would have perished. Wouldn’t it be worth God’s effort to save that one, even if the vast majority end up in hell? Isn’t that one person’s soul of value to God?

It would cost more in the end Hilston as God would have to end the human race in order to do what you suggest. We live in an evil world and evil things happen. If God wanted to stop all the evil that happens then it would require ending the world, which is precisely what He will do one day.
Further, how do you know that your hypothetical hasn't already happened? How do you know that an intervention such as you are suggesting is the only reason it wasn't 15,000 people killed instead of 3000? And if God had intervened to make it only 250 dead, how would you know that He had done that? Wouldn't you still be asking the same question?
Do you see my point? Your hypothetical secret workings of God behind the scenes makes no sense to even discuss because if He did do it you wouldn't even be able to tell!

Are you saying that God’s desire to diminish the evil that men do outweighs His desire to save them?

No. I'm saying that what you suggest cannot be done and still have the existence of this evil world make any sense. If God wanted to end the world He could but in the mean time we have to deal with the consequences of our actions and the actions of others.
You seem to think that life is some sort of game that God is playing. It is not! This life is not some sort of dress rehearsal for eternity; it is very, very real. What we do has genuine consequences that will have effects that ripple throughout eternity, both good and bad. If God wanted to stop the bad, the good would no longer have any meaning and the whole point of this life would be missed.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[1Way]

I'm waiting to hear from Hilston (Jim) how it is that "decree" and "will" are "different". (???)