ARGH!!! Calvinism makes me furious!!!

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by 1Way

Knight - POTW (Post of the week!)
:first: :thumb:

Thanks my brutha!

Be careful.... if you like what I post Z Man might call you a "brown noser".

(I forgive you Z Man!)

But seriously folks....
Doesn't it make you wonder what Calvinists make of phrases like... "our own understandings"????

God goes to great lengths to differentiate our abilities and willpower from His. Once again, their favorite proof texts are their own worst enemy.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Z Man
2 Samuel 12:11
Thus says the Lord: 'Behold, I will raise up adversity against you from your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun.

Z Man tell us....... why was God going to "raise up adversity" against David?

 

[1Way]

A light shown upon a dark place

A light shown upon a dark place

Z Man - You quoted sozo saying

And so you affirm that God is in the rape business to glorify himself?

to which you responded by saying

2 Samuel 12:11
Thus says the Lord: 'Behold, I will raise up adversity against you from your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun.

There are more examples of God glorifying Himself through other people's afflictions. He did it against Egypt, against all the nations that opposed Israel, killing all the women and children, and giving the women over to the men, and He also glorified Himself through the affliction of Job, which meant he lost his sons and daughters.

If God can be glorified through such 'calamity', why not through a rape?

In other words, you are saying, Yes, God gets glory from rape, God is in the rape business..

You had said that God never does sin or evil, but now you would allow God to be in the rape business to glorify Himself. You are one sick individual. Being in the business of rape is the last thing God would be implicated in, let alone find glory from. It's one thing to glorify God no matter what happens, but it's quite another for God to be glorified, i.e. honored and lifted up, by being in the business of rape.

Z Man, you are over the top. I said that I thought you were trying to push the edge and make God as connected with evil as you possibly could without actually saying that God does evil. Answer the following question.

• Does God orchestrate (or decree or control) every event that ever happens?

And since I already understand your viewpoint, your being honest about it is rather beside the point. This is your problem, you cannot justify your answer to that question and consistently maintain that God is not implicated in evil and sin.

 

[Yorzhik]

Zman, Knight asks a reasonable question. Why are you being so rude?

 

[1Way]

Knight - You said

But seriously folks....
Doesn't it make you wonder what Calvinists make of phrases like... "our own understandings"????

God goes to great lengths to differentiate our abilities and willpower from His. Once again, their favorite proof texts are their own worst enemy.

You open up a Pandora's box, and I love it. How about every warning, every admonition to change your ways to be more godly, how about every contingency or yet future uncertainty i.e. if such and such, then such and such. Also, all divine temporality statements like, now I know, or, I sent my angles to see if these things are so, or, if you do this, then I will heal your land. If God is truly in control of everything, then, we can make no changes, if God knows everything, then change is a concept that can never happen in reality.

Yet for some wise reason, God filled His word with meaning and sense where man is responsible for his own actions, warnings indicate that you can change your ways, contingencies are real, and closed theism and classic Calvinism is contrary to just about every single page in the bible.

 

[karstkid]

Re: Re: Re: AHHHHH calvinism makes me furious!!!

Re: Re: Re: AHHHHH calvinism makes me furious!!!

Originally posted by karstkid

Death came into the world long before Adam and Eve

Originally posted by Sozo

Verse, please?

Gen 2:8 "The LORD God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden; and there He placed the man whom He had formed."

Gen 3:24 "So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life."

The Garden of Eden was a definitive place of a definitive size. The Garden was not the whole of the Earth. The biblical text simply does not say that. If the Garden of Eden was this perfect smallish place, what do you think the much larger natural world was like outside the Garden? Outside of the Garden lions ate lambs and bites from poisonous snakes killed other animals. The Fall was man getting kicked out of the Garden to the already existing imperfect natural world outside with it's death and diseases.

 

[boogerhead]

Originally posted by Knight

Do the rest of you (Calvinist types) agree with Z Man that God is responsible for EVERY disease? Every sickness? And every death for all of history?

Rolf, John Reformed, boogerhead, Hilston.....????

What say ye?

Romans 11: 33-36
33: O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34: For who hath known the mind of the lord? or who hath been his counseller?
35: Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36: For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Revelations 4:11
Worthy art thou, our Lord and our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power: for thou didst create all things, and because of thy will they were, and were created.

1 Chronicles 29:13, 14
Now therefore, our God, we thank thee, and praise thy glorious name.
But who am I, and what is my people, that we should be able to offer so willingly after this sort? for all things come of thee, and of thine own have we given thee.

Proverbs 16:3, 4
Put your works into the hands of the Lord, and your purposes will be made certain.
The Lord has made everything for his purpose, even the sinner for the day of evil.

do you think that all things do not include diseases, deaths, etc.???

 

[Lighthouse]

Calvinists-
When exactly do you say that God predestined everything? Before Earth was formed? When did He predestine Earth? When did God decide to predestine everything? Was it predestined that He would decide that? And if so, when? And was the predestined? Was it all predestined eternally? And if so, when exactly was it decided? If it was always predestined, how did God predestine it to begin with?

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Yorzhik

Zman, Knight asks a reasonable question. Why are you being so rude?

:think:

Hmmm... I get it now. Knight must've e-mailed all his OV buddies. Couldn't handle the heat Knight? You said:

Originally posted by Knight

How many times do you need to be told? Cancer isn't "given". Nor is Alzheimer's, or aneurisms or a multitude of other ailments. Apparently you are the only one on this thread that thinks cancer is "given".

Need I post the passages of Scripture again that prove you are wrong?

I'm not being rude; just honest...

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Knight

Let's check it out....

Prov. 16:9
A man’s heart plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.

A man’s heart plans his way,
say what???

A man’s heart plans his way,
can I get an AMEN???

A man’s heart plans his way,

Us men have our own heart - and our own will.... but if we rely of God He will direct our steps.

The verse does not say 'if we rely of God, then He'll direct our steps. It specifically says that we may plan our way, but that very way is what the Lord had directed to begin with. Sometimes, what we plan never comes about. In all things, the Lord gets his way.

Lets drive home the point.....

Proverbs 16:1The preparations of the heart belong to man, But the answer of the tongue is from the LORD. 2 All the ways of a man are pure in his own eyes, But the LORD weighs the spirits. 3 Commit your works to the LORD, And your thoughts will be established. 4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom. 5 Everyone proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD; Though they join forces, none will go unpunished. 6 In mercy and truth Atonement is provided for iniquity; And by the fear of the LORD one departs from evil. 7 When a man’s ways please the LORD, He makes even his enemies to be at peace with him. 8 Better is a little with righteousness, Than vast revenues without justice. 9 A man’s heart plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.

Again the entire chapter oozes man's ability to have his own intentions and his owns ways that might not be in line with God's will.

Why are you so bent on proving that men have more power than God?

I noticed you did not bolden v.4, or any of the BUTS in v.1, 2, and 9. You know, 'but' is a transition word, indicating a change. Yeah, we may plan our ways however we like, but God is the one who directs our steps, not us. Our motives may be to do something "evil" or "good", but either way, God directs our steps to accomplish His purposes. This whole passage proves that we are responsible human beings, yet God is absolutely sovereign at the same time.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; 6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths.

"lean not on your own understanding;" Our own understanding?????? How can we have our "own understanding" if we have no will of our own? And why does God go to the trouble of telling us to acknowledge Him so that He can direct our paths if we can't help but have Him direct our paths???

No one will argue that man is responsible; I and many other Calvinists that I know of would agree with you there.

 

[boogerhead]

Originally posted by Knight

I think it's comical that a Calvinist would use this as a proof text! LOL!

Let's check it out....

Prov. 16:9
A man’s heart plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.

A man’s heart plans his way,
say what???

A man’s heart plans his way,
can I get an AMEN???

A man’s heart plans his way,

Us men have our own heart - and our own will.... but if we rely of God He will direct our steps. If man had no will why would God have said... "A man’s heart plans his way,?

Lets drive home the point.....

Proverbs 16:1The preparations of the heart belong to man, But the answer of the tongue is from the LORD. 2 All the ways of a man are pure in his own eyes, But the LORD weighs the spirits. 3 Commit your works to the LORD, And your thoughts will be established. 4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom. 5 Everyone proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD; Though they join forces, none will go unpunished. 6 In mercy and truth Atonement is provided for iniquity; And by the fear of the LORD one departs from evil. 7 When a man’s ways please the LORD, He makes even his enemies to be at peace with him. 8 Better is a little with righteousness, Than vast revenues without justice. 9 A man’s heart plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.

Again the entire chapter oozes man's ability to have his own intentions and his owns ways that might not be in line with God's will.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; 6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths.

"lean not on your own understanding;" Our own understanding?????? How can we have our "own understanding" if we have no will of our own? And why does God go to the trouble of telling us to acknowledge Him so that He can direct our paths if we can't help but have Him direct our paths???

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding;6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths.

QUESTION: When does He direct our paths again???????
ANSWER: When we lean not on our own understandings and acknowledge Him in all of our ways.

The entire meaning of all these verses above is meaningless IF man has no ability to have his own understandings or willpower.

Poverbs 16:1
The preparations of the heart belong to man, and the answer of the tongue, [are] from the LORD.

here God scourns the presumption of man, who dares to attribute anything to himself, as to prepare his heart or such the like, seeing that he is not even able to speak a word unless God gives it to him...

Proverbs 16:2
All the ways of a man [are] clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits.

here we see that man flatters himself in his doings, calling that virtue, which God terms vice...

Porverbs16:9
A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

here we see the folly of man who thinks that his ways are in his own hand, and yet is not able to move one foot unless God gives force...

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Knight,

would you be so kind as to direct me to where you clarified your position in regards to the original post? or if you'd rather, perhaps you could just restate here so people would not have to look through all 30 pages or so of this thread to find it.

thanks

Z Man,

The verse does not say 'if we rely of God, then He'll direct our steps. It specifically says that we may plan our way

there can be no "we may plan our way" if calvinism is true. Everything is God's way. it is ALL him and none us. "we may plan our way" cannot mean what it literally says under calvinism. it should say "God may plan our way" because he does it all under calvinism. granted that he does it through us, but we don't really plan anything under calvinism. it's simply impossible for God to ordain everything and to have us truly plan something ourselves.

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Knight

Z Man tell us....... why was God going to "raise up adversity" against David?

Cause David sinned.

Now, tell me; why did God kill David's innocent firstborn son? In fact, you'll never believe what God did to him...

2 Samuel 12:15, 18
...the Lord struck the child that Uriah's wife bore to David, and it became ill. ... Then on the seventh day it came to pass that the child died.


HE AFFLICTED THE CHILD WITH A DISEASE!!!

Oh my! God gave an 'innocent' being a disease?

:think:

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

Z Man,



there can be no "we may plan our way" if calvinism is true. Everything is God's way. it is ALL him and none us. "we may plan our way" cannot mean what it literally says under calvinism. it should say "God may plan our way" because he does it all under calvinism. granted that he does it through us, but we don't really plan anything under calvinism. it's simply impossible for God to ordain everything and to have us truly plan something ourselves.

That's why it continues with,

"BUT the Lord directs his steps"...

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Z Man

That's why it continues with,

"BUT the Lord directs his steps"...

the calvinist interpretation would thus read "God plans a man's way, but the Lord directs his steps."

that doesn't make any sense.

you can't contrast "but the Lord directs his steps" when God has done the first part. it's like saying "Joe prepared the way, but Joe (same Joe) directed the steps".

the contrast can only be valid if God is NOT ordaining everything.

 

[Z Man]

Re: A light shown upon a dark place

Re: A light shown upon a dark place

Originally posted by 1Way

Z Man -

...you are saying, Yes, God gets glory from rape, God is in the rape business..

You had said that God never does sin or evil, but now you would allow God to be in the rape business to glorify Himself. You are one sick individual. Being in the business of rape is the last thing God would be implicated in, let alone find glory from.

Did God not get glory from the death of all of Egypts firstborn? Did He not get glory from their boils and sickness, and all the plagues that He brought upon them? Did God not get any glory from the destruction of Job's household, the death of his very own children? Did God not get glory from the multitudes of people He brought 'calamity' upon?

Then why in the world is it so difficult for you to understand that God can be glorified through a rape? The women/man who may go through such an ordeal my receive counseling from a person who is a Christian, and may help lead the victim to the Lord. Or, the victim themselves may be a Christian, and through their rape, and their suffering afterwards, other's may see the person's strength and see the glory of God through the victims life. There are countless possibilities.

Do you believe it's wrong for God to kill people?

This is your problem, you cannot justify your answer to that question and consistently maintain that God is not implicated in evil and sin.

Man's ways are evil. His heart is continually thinking of evil thoughts. A man plans his ways, with evil motives and desires, yet the Lord is the one who directs his steps, whether the person He is directing intends evil or not. God is absolutely sovereign, yet man is still responsible for thier actions. Both are taught to us in the Bible.


Genesis 50:20
You meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive.

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

the calvinist interpretation would thus read "God plans a man's way, but the Lord directs his steps."

that doesn't make any sense.

you can't contrast "but the Lord directs his steps" when God has done the first part. it's like saying "Joe prepared the way, but Joe (same Joe) directed the steps".

the contrast can only be valid if God is NOT ordaining everything.

That's not how I interpret it at all GIT. The verse says exactly what it means. We plan our ways, yet, God directs our steps anyways. We may plan to do an evil act, yet God directs it so that good may come out of it. He doesn't direct our motives; that comes with being human. Our motive is always evil. So, we plan with evil/selfish intentions. We plan what we think is our way, yet God is directing our steps all along the way. We can do what we wish, and it seems like we have free will, but what we do is what the Lord has directed the whole time...

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Z Man

That's not how I interpret it at all GIT. The verse says exactly what it means. We plan our ways, yet, God directs our steps anyways. We may plan to do an evil act, yet God directs it so that good may come out of it. He doesn't direct our motives; that comes with being human. Our motive is always evil. So, we plan with evil/selfish intentions. We plan what we think is our way, yet God is directing our steps all along the way. We can do what we wish, and it seems like we have free will, but what we do is what the Lord has directed the whole time...

Z Man,

if God directs everything, and ordains everything, then we don't plan anything. there would only be God's one plan, decreed from all eternity of how things are going to be.

it is also contradictory for you to say that God ordains and directs everything and to say "He doesn't direct our motives". please tell me you see the contradiction.

 

[Lighthouse]

What? Noone wants to answer my questions? :chuckle:

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by Z Man
The point is, Clete is somehow 'awed' by you, and will follow you to your death in whatever you say. That much is obvious.[/

This is not true.

Hockey sucks!

Clete and I have had some good debates, and I haven't changed a bit, yet all of sudden, he's claiming that I'm not saved!

Are you sure that Freak hasn't taken over your mind!!! :doh:
I specifically said the opposite!!!

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer
And just to make myself as perfectly clear as possible...
I am not kidding around. If the answer you gave is the best that you can do at explaining why you were/are saved then you are not saved at all. I am not yet saying that you are not saved, in fact, I'll be quite surprised if it turns out that you aren't. I am only saying that the answer you gave has thrown up every red flag there is to throw. All I am asking for is a clarification from you.

I answer his questions, and he says I'm being irrational and not answering his questions! It's like he doesn't see or hear me or anything. I don't know what's gotten in to him lately.

You are being irrational in regards to the way you are dealing with Knight and others, not so much me directly and I don't recall ever saying that you hadn't answered my questions, just that you've done a really poor job of answering your own question.

Or maybe I do. He didn't start acting this way until I caught you in a bad mistake. Now that I won't back off, he's somehow 'joined forces' with you to somehow turn on me and discourage me...

I have not said anything to you that is not absolutely true. If you got you feelings hurt, well that's too bad. I'll cry for you next week sometime. The fact that you refuse to acknowledge that Knight has answered your questioned about a hundred times is irrational. You are artificially holding up a conversation in order to try to make Knight look bad and its only making you look bad, that’s what I call irrational!

:think:

Yes! Think! That's what I wish you would start doing!

Resting in Him,
Clete