ARGH!!! Calvinism makes me furious!!!

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Z Man

If it wasn't God, who gave it to the person? And what makes you think that God only gives diseases to the wicked? If that's the case, why do "innocent" people get them too?

Let me understand your position...

Are you saying that everyone who has a disease is because God orchestrated it?

If so, would you also conclude that God orchestrates every move of man, in every area of his life?

 

[1Way]

Yorzhik - Great stuff. You make it sound like what God has done is ,,, wise. You even make it sound like the death penalty which is at the heart of the gospel message, should somehow make the call for salvation ,,, an urgent, important and effective one.

But maybe the liberals know better, that we should always need more time to get saved, hmmm. Isn't there an exemption clause somewhere that says that if you are close to getting saved, that God should grant you more time so that you may get saved, like a limbo place or something, the movie Beetle Juice, lends well to that idea I think.

 

[1Way]

Z Man - That is great, I agree that God does what He pleases, the alternative is that He would do what He would not be pleased to do. (That's just ,,, strange)

So, getting back to what we were actually talking about. I realize that you pretty much already clarified this, but I'd like a clear answer.

• Do you agree that God never does any sin or evil. Yes or no?

I wonder if you can guess what my next question will be after you answer that question.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by Z Man

How was my answer 'wrong'?

It was wrong in that it contained none of the needed components that would have constituted a correct answer.

It is possible that your answer was simply incomplete and I am assuming for the time being that this is so, otherwise I would be required to assume that you are still in your sins and are unsaved, in which case our conversations would take on a decidedly different tone.

Please explain your answer further. When were you saved and under what circumstances did that salvation occur. Why won't you spend eternity in Hell? If God were to ask you, "Why should I allow you to enter Heaven?" what would be your answer?

And just to make myself as perfectly clear as possible...
I am not kidding around. If the answer you gave is the best that you can do at explaining why you were/are saved then you are not saved at all. I am not yet saying that you are not saved, in fact, I'll be quite surprised if it turns out that you aren't. I am only saying that the answer you gave has thrown up every red flag there is to throw. All I am asking for is a clarification from you.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[1Way]

Z Man - That is great, I agree that God does what He pleases, the alternative is that He would do what He would not be pleased to do. (That's just ,,, strange)

So, getting back to what we were actually talking about. I realize that you pretty much already clarified this, but I'd like a clear answer.

• Do you agree that God never does any sin or evil. Yes or no?

I wonder if you can guess what my next question will be after you answer that question.

 

[Rolf Ernst]

I am curious about what kind of response OVers and Arminians would make to IISam. 12: 11-15. Here we have two issues which, judging from some things which they have said, OVers and Arminians would find very strange--the judgements against David involving Absalom's incest with David's concubines, and the death of the son whom Uriah's wife bore him.

These instances are not troublesome to the Reformed view of Scripture, but I am curious about where these instances fit into the OV-Arminian view of Scripture. Comments anyone??

IISam. 16: 20-23 is no less interesting. Here we see Ahithophel counseling Absalom concerning what he should do. Ahithophel counsels him in accord with the judgement of God which Nathan had earlier pronounced against David.

Interesting verses indeed. It is nice to hold a view of God and His Word which can reconcile the whole of Scripture together without contradiction; but what response do OVers and Arminians make to these verses?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Uh... Rolf.... your not gonna pull a Z Man and simply ignore any questions posed to you... are you????

In post #398 I asked....

Do the rest of you (Calvinist types) agree with Z Man that God is responsible for EVERY disease? Every sickness? And every death for all of history?

Rolf, John Reformed, boogerhead, Hilston.....????

What say ye?

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by Rolf Ernst

I am curious about what kind of response OVers and Arminians would make to IISam. 12: 11-15. Here we have two issues which, judging from some things which they have said, OVers and Arminians would find very strange--the judgements against David involving Absalom's incest with David's concubines, and the death of the son whom Uriah's wife bore him.

These instances are not troublesome to the Reformed view of Scripture, but I am curious about where these instances fit into the OV-Arminian view of Scripture. Comments anyone??

IISam. 16: 20-23 is no less interesting. Here we see Ahithophel counseling Absalom concerning what he should do. Ahithophel counsels him in accord with the judgement of God which Nathan had earlier pronounced against David.

Interesting verses indeed. It is nice to hold a view of God and His Word which can reconcile the whole of Scripture together without contradiction; but what response do OVers and Arminians make to these verses?

II Sam. 12: 11 Thus says the Lord: 'Behold, I will raise up adversity against you from your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun. 12 For you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, before the sun.'"
13 So David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord."
And Nathan said to David, "The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die. 14 However, because by this deed you have given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, the child also who is born to you shall surely die." 15 Then Nathan departed to his house.

II Sam. 16:20 Then Absalom said to Ahithophel, "Give advice as to what we should do."
21 And Ahithophel said to Absalom, "Go in to your father's concubines, whom he has left to keep the house; and all Israel will hear that you are abhorred by your father. Then the hands of all who are with you will be strong." 22 So they pitched a tent for Absalom on the top of the house, and Absalom went in to his father's concubines in the sight of all Israel.
23 Now the advice of Ahithophel, which he gave in those days, was as if one had inquired at the oracle of God. So was all the advice of Ahithophel both with David and with Absalom.


One things for sure. Over's cannot read minds!

What exectly do you see as the conflict between these verses and the idea that the future is open?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Sozo]

I'm still finding it hard to understand why a Calvinist is compelled to try and convince anyone of anything.

Wouldn't they be fighting against the providential sovereignty of God?

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Knight

Uh.. I am NOT gonna address this again.

I am now going to ignore you on account that you are either rudest person in the world or the dumbest person in the world.

I seriously see no reason to answer your question yet ONE more time.

I have never seen anyone be so obtuse in all my life. :nono:

Knight,

I only asked that you clarify. No reason to get upset. You said diseases are not given. I showed verses that say they are, by God. Now which is it? Are diseases given or not? When you said "diseases are not given", did you only mean that they are not given to innocent people? Or did you mean that they weren't given period; that they just "appear"?

TOL needs answers from thier 'leader'. Don't wimp out on us now....

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Knight

Do the rest of you agree with Z Man that God is responsible for EVERY disease? Every sickness? And every death for all of history?

Rolf, John Reformed, boogerhead, Hilston.....????

What say ye?

There are no such things as "accidents"...

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Sozo

Let me understand your position...

Are you saying that everyone who has a disease is because God orchestrated it?

If so, would you also conclude that God orchestrates every move of man, in every area of his life?

Jeremiah 10:23
O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.

Proverbs 16:9
A man's heart plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps.

Proverbs 19:21
There are many plans in a man's heart, Nevertheless the Lord's counsel--that will stand.

Proverbs 21:1-2
The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, Like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes. Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, But the Lord weighs the hearts.

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by 1Way

Do you agree that God never does any sin or evil. Yes or no

Yes, I agree; God does not sin or do any evil. I have to admit though, that's a stupid question to ask a fellow Christian...

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

It was wrong in that it contained none of the needed components that would have constituted a correct answer.

You asked me why I was saved. I told you, through Scriptures. How can that be wrong? If I didn't answer you correctly, maybe you need to clarify your question...

When were you saved and under what circumstances did that salvation occur?

I don't know when I was saved. I don't have a set date or anything. I grew up in a Christian home, so as long as I can remember, I've always believed in Jesus Christ as Lord and my Savior. Under what circumstances? I don't know what you mean by that. Do you mean was I saved in church, or at my home, or on the side of a street? Well, like I said before, I really don't have a set date, so I don't know. Is that important?

If you want to get technical about it, I was saved before the world was even created....

Why won't you spend eternity in Hell?

Because Christ paid for my debt.

If God were to ask you, "Why should I allow you to enter Heaven?" what would be your answer?

Because I am perfect, thanks to your Son.

And just to make myself as perfectly clear as possible...
I am not kidding around. If the answer you gave is the best that you can do at explaining why you were/are saved then you are not saved at all. I am not yet saying that you are not saved, in fact, I'll be quite surprised if it turns out that you aren't. I am only saying that the answer you gave has thrown up every red flag there is to throw. All I am asking for is a clarification from you.

Who are you to judge my salvation?

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Z Man

Jeremiah 10:23
O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.

Proverbs 16:9
A man's heart plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps.

Proverbs 19:21
There are many plans in a man's heart, Nevertheless the Lord's counsel--that will stand.

Proverbs 21:1-2
The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, Like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes. Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, But the Lord weighs the hearts.

I will take your response as an affirmative.

Why would Paul suggest that Timothy have a little wine for his stomach?

I assume that you would never go to the doctor and oppose God, is that true?

Why does Paul suggest that we obey the governing authorities, considering, your contention, that it is God who directs our disobedience?

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Sozo

Why would Paul suggest that Timothy have a little wine for his stomach?

Because he had a stomach ache? I don't understand why you asked that...

I assume that you would never go to the doctor and oppose God, is that true?

Oppose God by going to the doctor? I've never heard that before! How is going to the doctor opposing God?

Why does Paul suggest that we obey the governing authorities, considering, your contention, that it is God who directs our disobedience?

Well, if you obey, it's obvious that God isn't directing your "disobediance", now isn't it?

Seriously, what's your point?

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Z Man

Oppose God by going to the doctor? I've never heard that before! How is going to the doctor opposing God?

If God is giving you a disease, why would you want to go against God by trying to remove it?

 

[karstkid]

Re: AHHHHH calvinism makes me furious!!!

Re: AHHHHH calvinism makes me furious!!!

Originally posted by Knight
She went on to say that she was comforted by God (which of course is fantastic). But then she said that God have given her the cancer so God would also give her the strength to get through it.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!! :shocked:

Can you imagine that?

Can you imagine a women actual thinking that God had given her cancer???

That is just plain sick!

I don't believe God purposefully gave her cancer. I can believe that he allowed it.

What ever happened to understanding that it was man’s sin (our rebellion) that brought sickness and death into the world? What ever happened to placing the responsibility for bad things with mankind? So now God is a disease dispenser?

People are just plain stupid.

:dunce:

Life outside of the Garden of Eden during Adam and Eve's time there included sickness and death. Death came into the world long before Adam and Eve.

I'm am not a Calvinist, but they do believe in eternal security of the believer. Arminians do not. Nor am I a "Open Theist" which I consider heretical.

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Sozo

If God is giving you a disease, why would you want to go against God by trying to remove it?

That's strange thinking! If that's how you feel, you shouldn't go to the doctor.

Maybe God would afflict someone with a disease so that when they go to the doctor, and the doctor says there is no cure, yet the person is healed, the doctor will see the glory of God manifested through that person's healing. Maybe, by going to the doctor, and the doctor tries his/her best to treat you, yet you die anyway, then maybe the doctor will reconsider his/her life and seek after God.

There are so many numerous outcomes and possibilities that can happen when a person is afflicted with a disease. God knows the hearts of every man and how each and every person can influence the people they live around. His will and counsel is carried out in everyone's life to bring about one common goal; the glorification of Himself. He uses both good and bad circumstances to do just that.

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Z Man

Well, if you obey, it's obvious that God isn't directing your "disobediance", now isn't it?

But you seem to be telling us, that God orchestrates all things. If He is orchestrating the murder of millions of unborn children (for example), then why should we protest?

If God has predetermined the salvation of individuals, then why attempt to share with those who are destined for hell?