ARGH!!! Calvinism makes me furious!!!

[Clete]

Z Man,

I for one am very disappointed in you.

You've disintegrated into complete irrationality!
What has happened to you? Not that long ago I remember commenting on the fact that you are the only Calvinist on TOL who presents a challenge to me of any difficulty. Now it's impossible to even debate with you because you refuse to engage in a rational discourse! You truly do sound just like Freak! :freak:

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Sozo]

Re: Re: AHHHHH calvinism makes me furious!!!

Re: Re: AHHHHH calvinism makes me furious!!!

Originally posted by karstkid

Death came into the world long before Adam and Eve.

Verse, please?

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Sozo

But you seem to be telling us, that God orchestrates all things. If He is orchestrating the murder of millions of unborn children (for example), then why should we protest?

Because in our protest, many come to know about God and His glory. They may see the impact that He has in our life, and see the glory of God through us and our protest.

That's just ONE possibility...

If God has predetermined the salvation of individuals, then why attempt to share with those who are destined for hell?

Romans 10:13-15
For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, who bring glad tidings of good things!"

 

[Yorzhik]

Re: Nice!

Re: Nice!

Originally posted by Knight

Yorzhik... POTD :first:

Thanks.

 

[Yorzhik]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Z Man,

I for one am very disappointed in you.

You've disintegrated into complete irrationality!
What has happened to you? Not that long ago I remember commenting on the fact that you are the only Calvinist on TOL who presents a challenge to me of any difficulty. Now it's impossible to even debate with you because you refuse to engage in a rational discourse! You truly do sound just like Freak! :freak:

Resting in Him,
Clete

Has anyone seen Freak and ZMan in the same room together lately? hmmmmmmmm...

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Z Man


Romans 10:13-15
For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, who bring glad tidings of good things!"

That verse is irrelevant in the Calvinist world.

You, for example, never had to hear the gospel, because you had already been saved before you were born.

If you were born from a woman who had been raped, then it was God's intention for the rape to occur. God must have orchestrated the rape. It is not nearly enough for you to say that He had forknowledge of the rape, because you have made it clear that He "directs" our steps in all matters.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Z Man,

I for one am very disappointed in you.

You've disintegrated into complete irrationality!
What has happened to you? Not that long ago I remember commenting on the fact that you are the only Calvinist on TOL who presents a challenge to me of any difficulty. Now it's impossible to even debate with you because you refuse to engage in a rational discourse! You truly do sound just like Freak! :freak:

Resting in Him,
Clete

I think Freak errrrrrr Z Man is hoping that if he creates enough distraction no one will notice he hasn't answered any questions presented to him.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer
One things for sure. Over's cannot read minds!

What exectly do you see as the conflict between these verses and the idea that the future is open?

Resting in Him,
Clete

:ha: That is almost word for word what I was gonna say!

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Z Man,

I for one am very disappointed in you.

You've disintegrated into complete irrationality!
What has happened to you? Not that long ago I remember commenting on the fact that you are the only Calvinist on TOL who presents a challenge to me of any difficulty. Now it's impossible to even debate with you because you refuse to engage in a rational discourse! You truly do sound just like Freak! :freak:

Resting in Him,
Clete

I'm sorry Clete, but I truly do not understand what your problem is...

 

[Hilston]

Wow -- I go away for a day and a bazillion pages get added.

Hi Clete,

Thank you for your kind apology.

Clete writes: ... the life and well being of one's daughter is more important to a father than all the thousands who died on 911 put together and so I trust you see the point I was trying to make.

I guess I don’t see your point. I think I’ve come up with a pretty good way that God could improve His odds of more people coming to salvation.

Jim originally wrote: If it is true that the Open View God wants as many people saved as possible, and if it is true that miraculous interventions tend to repel rather than attract followers, then it is reasonable to think He would surreptitiously intervene only in those cases where the prolonged life of an innocent person might provide further opportunities for them to believe in Jesus.

Clete writes: This I think is a major flaw in your thinking. Prolonged life does provide additional opportunity to believe and be saved but it provides an equal, if not greater, opportunity to do evil and to hate God as well.

Why greater? And even if that were true, wouldn’t it be worth the risk?

Clete writes: People are evil by nature.

Really? If that’s true, then how do people accept Christ? Out of their evil nature?

Clete writes: ... and for this one reason alone prolonged life would actually tend to lessen one chances of being saved not improve them.

Let me see if I understand your logic. Roughly 3,000 people died on 9/11. Let’s say, just for the sake of discussion, that God’s secret intervention could have prevented the deaths of 2,750 of them. Let’s further suppose that 500 of those people were already believers. That leaves 2,250 unsaved people who may become believers or may become more evil than they were before. Let’s say only one person out of 2,250 becomes a believer as an indirect result of his life being prolonged by God’s intervention. 2,249 people end up in hell, but one is saved who otherwise would have perished. Wouldn’t it be worth God’s effort to save that one, even if the vast majority end up in hell? Isn’t that one person’s soul of value to God?

Clete writes: So your supposed motivation for such intervention is discounted. Indeed, it would seem that God would have an incentive not to intervene.

Are you saying that God’s desire to diminish the evil that men do outweighs His desire to save them?

Jim

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Sozo

That verse is irrelevant in the Calvinist world.

You, for example, never had to hear the gospel, because you had already been saved before you were born.

God chose preaching as the means to "awaken" the elect:

1 Corinthians 1:21
For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

If you were born from a woman who had been raped, then it was God's intention for the rape to occur. God must have orchestrated the rape. It is not nearly enough for you to say that He had forknowledge of the rape, because you have made it clear that He "directs" our steps in all matters.

And?

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Z Man

God chose preaching as the means to "awaken" the elect:

Are all of them awake before they die?

It sure seems that God clearly had America in mind to bunch all of the elect together, or are they just confessors but not possessors?

And?

And so you affirm that God is in the rape business to glorify himself?

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Knight

I think Freak errrrrrr Z Man is hoping that if he creates enough distraction no one will notice he hasn't answered any questions presented to him.

What questions have I not answered, sir Knight?

As I recall, you have yet to admit that you made a mistake by saying that diseases are not given (post 216). Because I've brought that to your attention, and you are full of pride, you are now turning on me, along with your 'brown-nosed' friend, Clete. But I don't care; call me names, say I'm Freak, whatever - I could care less. Because as far as I'm concerned, you oppose Scriptures, and will not face them like a man. You will not admit that you made a simple mistake in the remark that "diseases are not given".

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Z Man

Proverbs 16:9
A man's heart plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps.

I think it's comical that a Calvinist would use this as a proof text! LOL!

Let's check it out....

Prov. 16:9
A man’s heart plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.

A man’s heart plans his way,
say what???

A man’s heart plans his way,
can I get an AMEN???

A man’s heart plans his way,

Us men have our own heart - and our own will.... but if we rely of God He will direct our steps. If man had no will why would God have said... "A man’s heart plans his way,?

Lets drive home the point.....

Proverbs 16:1The preparations of the heart belong to man, But the answer of the tongue is from the LORD. 2 All the ways of a man are pure in his own eyes, But the LORD weighs the spirits. 3 Commit your works to the LORD, And your thoughts will be established. 4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom. 5 Everyone proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD; Though they join forces, none will go unpunished. 6 In mercy and truth Atonement is provided for iniquity; And by the fear of the LORD one departs from evil. 7 When a man’s ways please the LORD, He makes even his enemies to be at peace with him. 8 Better is a little with righteousness, Than vast revenues without justice. 9 A man’s heart plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.

Again the entire chapter oozes man's ability to have his own intentions and his owns ways that might not be in line with God's will.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; 6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths.

"lean not on your own understanding;" Our own understanding?????? How can we have our "own understanding" if we have no will of our own? And why does God go to the trouble of telling us to acknowledge Him so that He can direct our paths if we can't help but have Him direct our paths???

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding;6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths.

QUESTION: When does He direct our paths again???????
ANSWER: When we lean not on our own understandings and acknowledge Him in all of our ways.

The entire meaning of all these verses above is meaningless IF man has no ability to have his own understandings or willpower.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Z Man
Because I've brought that to your attention, and you are full of pride, you are now turning on me, along with your 'brown-nosed' friend, Clete.

OK... I think you owe Clete a apology.

That comment was way over the line.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Z Man

God chose preaching as the means to "awaken" the elect:

Awaken?????

Didn't He ordain that they be "asleep" (to put it in your terms) in the first place?

Didn't He ordain EVERYTHING????

Therefore what you are actually preaching is that God ordained some to be "asleep" and then ordained them the be "awakened".

:chuckle:

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Knight

OK... I think you owe Clete a apology.

That comment was way over the line.

Yeah, I figured that would of been 'too harsh'... sorry...

The point is, Clete is somehow 'awed' by you, and will follow you to your death in whatever you say. That much is obvious. Clete and I have had some good debates, and I haven't changed a bit, yet all of sudden, he's claiming that I'm not saved! I answer his questions, and he says I'm being irrational and not answering his questions! It's like he doesn't see or hear me or anything. I don't know what's gotten in to him lately.

Or maybe I do. He didn't start acting this way until I caught you in a bad mistake. Now that I won't back off, he's somehow 'joined forces' with you to somehow turn on me and discourage me...

:think:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Z Man

Or maybe I do. He didn't start acting this way until I caught you in a bad mistake. Now that I won't back off, he's somehow 'joined forces' with you to somehow turn on me and discourage me...

:think:

Z Man with all due respect.... I have answered your objection and clarified my position more than sufficiently.

I think most people here (on this thread) are wondering why you continue to act so rude.

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Sozo

Are all of them awake before they die?

John 6:39
This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

It is impossible for an "elect" to die in their sins, without believing. Those who die as unbelievers are not the elect; those who do believe are the elect. It's that simple.

It sure seems that God clearly had America in mind to bunch all of the elect together, or are they just confessors but not possessors?

You believe the majority of the Christians in this world are American? That's intersesting...

I do believe that a lot of "confessing" believers in this country are 'fake'. They play religion, but that's about it. You can tell a true believer by their fruits. If they endure till the end, then they are truely saved. John said:

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

And so you affirm that God is in the rape business to glorify himself?

2 Samuel 12:11
Thus says the Lord: 'Behold, I will raise up adversity against you from your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun.

There are more examples of God glorifying Himself through other people's afflictions. He did it against Egypt, against all the nations that opposed Israel, killing all the women and children, and giving the women over to the men, and He also glorified Himself through the affliction of Job, which meant he lost his sons and daughters.

If God can be glorified through such 'calamity', why not through a rape?

 

[1Way]

Knight - LOL!!! POTW (Post of the week!)
:first: :thumb:

Originally posted by Knight

Originally posted by Z Man

Proverbs 16:9
A man's heart plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps.

I think it's comical that a Calvinist would use this as a proof text! LOL!

Let's check it out....

Prov. 16:9
A man’s heart plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.

A man’s heart plans his way,
say what???

A man’s heart plans his way,
can I get an AMEN???

A man’s heart plans his way,

Us men have our own heart - and our own will.... but if we rely of God He will direct our steps. If man had no will why would God have said... "A man’s heart plans his way,?

Lets drive home home the point.....

Proverbs 16:1The preparations of the heart belong to man, But the answer of the tongue is from the LORD. 2 All the ways of a man are pure in his own eyes, But the LORD weighs the spirits. 3 Commit your works to the LORD, And your thoughts will be established. 4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom. 5 Everyone proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD; Though they join forces, none will go unpunished. 6 In mercy and truth Atonement is provided for iniquity; And by the fear of the LORD one departs from evil. 7 When a man’s ways please the LORD, He makes even his enemies to be at peace with him. 8 Better is a little with righteousness, Than vast revenues without justice. 9 A man’s heart plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.

Again the entire chapter oozes man's ability to have his own intentions and his owns ways that might not be in line with God's will.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; 6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths.

"lean not on your own understanding;" Our own understanding?????? How can we have our "own understanding" if we have no will of our own? And why does God go to the trouble of telling us to acknowledge Him so that He can direct our paths if we can't help but have Him direct our paths???

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding;6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths.

QUESTION: When does He direct our paths again???????
ANSWER: When we lean not on our own understandings and acknowledge Him in all of our ways.

The entire meaning of all these verses above is meaningless IF man has no ability to have his own understandings or willpower.

That was just excellent! Man has a free will, and God does not direct or orchestrate everything that comes to pass.