ARGH!!! Calvinism makes me furious!!!

[Nathon Detroit]

I altered the title of this thread ever so slightly to: ARGH!!! Calvinism makes me furious!!!

I thought it sounded better, and this thread is a "keeper".

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by Knight

I altered the title of this thread ever so slightly to: ARGH!!! Calvinism makes me furious!!!

I thought it sounded better, and this thread is a "keeper".

Okay, now you're just playing unfairly!

You're obviously losing the debate and so in order to make it look better for yourself you go and change the title of the thread!

Admit it Knight! Admit it, admit it, admit it! I caught you!

Boy, are you really stuck between a rock and a hard place on this one, I'll tell ya! This sort of sneaky behind the scenes cheating is beneath you! Just admit it now so we can all move on!

 

[Clete]

Wow!

Freak took over my mind there for a minute! Or was it Z Man? :think:

Sorry about that Knight!

:chuckle:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Okay, now you're just playing unfairly!

You're obviously losing the debate and so in order to make it look better for yourself you go and change the title of the thread!

Admit it Knight! Admit it, admit it, admit it! I caught you!

Boy, are you really stuck between a rock and a hard place on this one, I'll tell ya! This sort of sneaky behind the scenes cheating is beneath you! Just admit now so we can all move on!

ROTFL... :chuckle:

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Rolf Ernst

G. I. T. --Your post 475 is false, false, false. It is contrary to what the Word of God says, and it is false. It is false because God works both through the instrumentality of men and against the efforts of men.
He works always in a way that does not destroy the freewill of men. And it doesn't matter whether men understand it or not. The imbecility of the human mind never deprives Him of His purpose.

then you deny calvinism? that's all i posted there.

 

[Big Finn]

Rolf,

“Nothing is more absurd than to think anything at all is done but by the ordination of God….Every action and motion of every creature is so governed by the hidden counsel of God, that nothing can come to pass, but what was ordained by Him….The wills of men are so governed by the will of God, that they are carried on straight to the mark which He has fore-ordained” (Cal. Inst., book 1, chapter 16, sect. 3).

quote:
BIG FINN--Okay, I agree with all you say concerning Christ and the Father. You are straight with Scripture (at least in this regard).

OK. That's good. I'm actually very glad that you and I agree. Now let's look at the implications of what you just said.

1. Christ's character was that of selflessness.

2. God's character must be one of selflessness then too.

3. Any interpretation of God's actions that leads one to believe that God's character is other than one of selflessness is an incorrect interpretation and is not Biblical.

I'm glad you agree with it Rolf. However I do believe Calvinism disagrees with it at a very basic level. I'll tell you why.

Calvinism says God ordained sin, and that sin exists to the glory of God. It also says that God has created people to serve no other purpose than for destruction, because He did not create them to be saved--He chose to them for desruction from the foundation of the world.

This fits the the second definition I gave for defining a selfish action--Any action that harms others so that the person doing it might look good on the surface. By holding the position that Calvinism does it in effect says that God is sinful.

And speaking to the post that started this thread...

As you remember you agreed that I was scripturally correct in saying that the character of Christ and the character of God are express images of each other--that basically their characters are one. If God actually gave a person cancer this would be in conflict with character of Christ for I do not believe even a Calvinist would agree that giving a person cancer is something we would have seen Christ do while He was here on earth. He very consistently acted in a manner which is at the opposite end of the spectrum of behavior.

An action like giving a person cancer would be at complete odds with the character Christ exhibited while here on earth. Thus it is completely out of character for God. It would violate His very character.

You have some explaining to do as you are deep in contradiction with yourself. Your quote of Calvin says that "Every action and motion " that man does is caused by God. Thus God is responsible for causing men to sin. This fits the definition of selfishness that you agreed with that says God is a sinner if He is the direct cause of harm to another person that is done to glorify Himself. You also agreed that doing this would be out of character for God as His character and Christ's character were one: Christ's character was an express image of His Father's.

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Big Finn

Rolf,

You have some explaining to do as you are deep in contradiction with yourself. Your quote of Calvin says that "Every action and motion " that man does is caused by God. Thus God is responsible for causing men to sin. This fits the definition of selfishness that you agreed with that says God is a sinner if He is the direct cause of harm to another person that is done to glorify Himself. You also agreed that doing this would be out of character for God as His character and Christ's character were one: Christ's character was an express image of His Father's.

i quoted it, not Rolf. he actually denies it although he claims to be a calvinist. figure out that one.

 

[Sozo]

Calvin's god must be a nut...

He orchestrates our actions and then asks us not to grieve his spirit through them?

:kookoo:

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by Sozo

Calvin's god must be a nut...

He orchestrates our actions and then asks us not to grieve his spirit through them?

:kookoo:

Excellent point! :thumb:

 

[Poly]

Originally posted by Sozo

Calvin's god must be a nut...

He orchestrates our actions and then asks us not to grieve his spirit through them?

:kookoo:

The best way I've heard this put is....

To believe in the God of predestination one must believe in a God who would force a persons head under water, not allowing them air, all the while yelling, "Why don't you save yourself?".

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

you are really ok with holding a theology that even you can see is contradictory in the bible?

Of course not! What do I believe in that is 'contradictory in the bible'? It would be absurd for any Christian to believe the Bible contridicts itself.

The belief that God is sovereign, yet man is still responsible isn't contridictory in the Bible; it's contradictory in my head! My reason may not be able to comprehend it, yet the Bible still teaches them both. I have to trust the inerrant Word of God rather than my logic...

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Z Man

I have to trust the inerrant Word of God rather than my logic...

I know I do.

I find absolutely no logic in anything Calvinism teaches, and yet the bible is the most logical of all books ever written.

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Poly

Come on, really, how can God be in control of all of man's actions (I'm sure this is what is meant by sovereign) yet man is totally responsible for them?

Sound familiar....


Romans 9:19
Why does God still find fault? For who has resisted His will?

at least admit that this is anything but simple.

My brain can't comprehend it, yet the Bible teaches it nonetheless. Just because it seems 'illogical' to me doesn't mean it's not true. I can't comprehend the Trinity, but I'm sure we all believe that, now don't we?

 

[Big Finn]

i quoted it, not Rolf.

Oops. Sorry. I'd agree that for a person to deny Calvin's own statement on the matter and then claim to be a Calvinist is a hard one to figure.

 

[Poly]

Originally posted by Z Man

Of course not! What do I believe in that is 'contradictory in the bible'?

The bible says that God brought the animals to Adam to see what he would name them.
Zman says God doesn't need to see anything.

This is contradictory.

God says "now I know", concerning His recognition of Abraham's faith when he obeyed God in preparing to offer Isaac as a sacrifice.
Zman says God already knew.

This is contradictory.

God says that He was sorry that He made man due to their wickedness.
Zman says that God made man planning ahead of time to destroy them for the wickedness that He also planned for them to engage in.

This is contradictory.

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Knight

Let me state for the final time....

God punishes the wicked in all sorts of ways! Disease is child's play! In the Bible God might just strike you dead on the spot! He might wipe out your family and your village.

When people reject His direct commands God wastes no time handing out His punishments. Therefore in the Bible we find God punishing the wicked or the rebellious in a variety of ways.

FINALLY!!! You 'somewhat' admitted that yes, God does indeed give people diseases! Now, was that so hard?

If you now believe that God does give people diseases, why did you say this:

Originally posted by Knight
How many times do you need to be told? Cancer isn't "given". Nor is Alzheimer's, or aneurisms or a multitude of other ailments. Apparently you are the only one on this thread that thinks cancer is "given".

But here is the rub....
Z Man and the like tell us the EVERY sickness and EVERY disease and EVERY death are orchestrated by God.

This view makes no sense!

We do not find God claiming responsibility for EVERY disease and EVERY sickness and EVERY death.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things.

The Bible says that disease, sickness and death are due to sin that was brought into the through Adam.

The Bible says that if we follow God and His word we will prosper and be healthy.

Then why do Christians get sick? Why did/does God kill babies and afflict them with diseases? Why did God afflict the house of Job, a righteous man who feard God? Why did Christ suffer and die even though He was perfect?

1 Pe 3:17
For it is better, if it is the will of God, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.

 

[Rolf Ernst]

G. I. T.--You and others just have a problem. Comprehending how God's determinate purpose and man's freewill work in concert is just beyond you. When I said it didn't matter whether you understood it or not, I was merely making the observation that regardless of man's stupidity--whether men understand or not--God is forever the immutable "I AM."

Now you OVers and Arminians are like cats jumping around on a hot roof--obfuscate, misrepresent and avoid.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by Poly

The bible says that God brought the animals to Adam to see what he would name them.
Zman says God doesn't need to see anything.

This is contradictory.

God says "now I know", concerning His recognition of Abraham's faith when he obeyed God in preparing to offer Isaac as a sacrifice.
Zman says God already knew.

This is contradictory.

God says that He was sorry that He made man due to their wickedness.
Zman says that God made man planning ahead of time to destroy them for the wickedness that He also planned for them to engage in.

This is contradictory.

Polly,

As right as you obviously are, this will not work. You see, Z Man has divorced himself from logic in favor of Calvinism. He just openly admitted that it is illogical but that in spite of that, it is true because the Bible teaches it (according to him).
This is proof of his irrationality. He denies that things must be logical while in the same breath insisting that the Bible must not contradict itself. The Bible is only required to be non-contradictory as long as logic is employed. Once the requirement of something being logical is removed, contradiction is no longer a problem. It is fundamentally self defeating to insist that the Bible not be self contradictory while accepting that what it teaches need not be logical.
So showing Z Man all the contradictions in the world will not make any difference. At this point the only point that makes any sense to talk about is whether or not something must be logical for it to be true.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Z Man

Then why do Christians get sick?

Due to the effects of sin.... sickness and death are part of our lives.

Why did/does God kill babies and afflict them with diseases?

Occasionally we read in the Bible that God punishes the wicked and those in rebellion to God. Unwise decisions can lead to tragic consequences.

Why did God afflict the house of Job, a righteous man who feard God?

Why do you keep stating that God did anything to Job???

Tell me Z Man... what did God Himself do to Job?

Why did Christ suffer and die even though He was perfect?

It was wicked for man to crucify Christ.

God used the wicked actions of man to bring about justice to the world.

1 Pe 3:17
For it is better, if it is the will of God, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.

It cracks me how you twist and pervert the plain teaching of this verse.

You intimate that the verse means that God brings about all suffering so you might as well let God make you suffer for good instead of evil.

The weird part is according to you God is orchestrating evil as well as good!

But more importantly the verse is pretty clear if you don't twist it and pervert it through bizarre theological positions.

Let's review....

1Peter 3:8 Finally, all of you be of one mind, having compassion for one another; love as brothers, be tenderhearted, be courteous; 9 not returning evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary blessing, knowing that you were called to this, that you may inherit a blessing. 10 For “He who would love life And see good days, Let him refrain his tongue from evil, And his lips from speaking deceit. 11 Let him turn away from evil and do good; Let him seek peace and pursue it. 12 For the eyes of the LORD are on the righteous, And His ears are open to their prayers; But the face of the LORD is against those who do evil.”

yet Z Man would state that the LORD is responsible for those that do evil!!!

13 And who is he who will harm you if you become followers of what is good? 14 But even if you should suffer for righteousness’ sake, you are blessed. “And do not be afraid of their threats, nor be troubled.”

You see Z Man God is talking about being persecuted for being righteous! Not being persecuted by God Himself!!!!

15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear; 16 having a good conscience, that when they defame you as evildoers, those who revile your good conduct in Christ may be ashamed. 17 For it is better, if it is the will of God, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.

CONCLUSION:
This should alarm all of those that think Z Man is faithfully presenting God's word. Z Man actually tried to claim that the above verse meant that it is OK to suffer because its God who is making you suffer!!! When in reality and obvious to see that God is saying it's better to suffer for the cause of Christ AT THE HANDS THE WICKED(not at the hand of God) than to suffer for other unrighteus reasons.

What a shame that a theology could rape a verse in such a way. :nono:

 

[Poly]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

So showing Z Man all the contradictions in the world will not make any difference. At this point the only point that makes any sense to talk about is whether or not something must be logical for it to be true.

Yeah, I realize that. It's clear that Calvinists have to throw logic out the window in order to make their claims. I still feel an obligation to point out the painfully obvious absurdities in their doctrine.