ARGH!!! Calvinism makes me furious!!!

[Rolf Ernst]

BIG FINN--It is true that I agreed with you on what you said about some scriptures, but that does NOT mean I agree with you on conclusions you may draw from them.

I sensed that your intent was something other than what was apparent by your statements, but i just ignored what else you might intend by those statements. IF you want a full answer, ask a full question.

 

[Big Finn]

Rolf,

Do you believe God acts outside the scope of His own character?

I know these are probably new questions to you but the paradigm I am coming from is probably not something you have ever given much thought to.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Big Finn
Isn't that kinda like a cat on a hot tin roof, Rolf?

Awww.... opportunity wasted!

You should have said....

Isn't that kinda like a cat on a hot tin Rolf?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Rolf....

I don't seem to see you responding to any questions directed to you.

I asked...

YES or NO... Does God decree EVERYTHING?

And just to be fair I will answer the question myself, who knows maybe we will share the same answer?

my answer....
NO. God does not decree EVERYTHING.

Agree? Or disagree?

 

[1Way]

While I wait for (Jim) Hilston to answer the question of the hour, I'd like any other who is a proponent that "God's will" and "His decree" are in any way incongruent with each other to please explain the differences.

Rolf - That's ok, you probably wrote Arminian on one trash can, and Open View on the other, we can just write the Closed View and cover both the Calvinists and the Arminians all at once.

 

[1Way]

Knight, everyone, what is all this hoopla about divine decree, where does this divine decree of yet future stuff come in??? Is it supposed to be like God spoke the world into existence? or?

Book Chapter Verse please, not Augustine's confessions, or Plato, best of.

 

[Big Finn]

Isn't that kinda like a cat on a hot tin Rolf?

Sorry, Rolf, but I just can't help it.

ROTFLOL. That was funny Knight.

 

[1Way]

Why in the world would God decree something to happen if it goes against His will. That is rather similar to being, ,,, insane, isn't it?

???

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Rolf Ernst

You people pick on Z Man unmercifully because he is less than clear in some of his statements, and sometimes he uses unscriptural words that are less than precise, allowing mistaken impressions to form as a consequence. Then sometimes he says things like referring to God's providences and ways being illogical. I think he doesn't mean that God is illogical, but that God's ways are far above out of our sight to the point that men cannot comprehend some of His ways, and they therefore seem illogical to men.

I know that there are examples in scripture of God doing certain things that OVers and Arminians have said God CANNOT do because, they think, it would make Him guilty of sin. Lo, and behold, there are the examples of Him doing precisely such things PLUS along with them, there are explanations which would clear up men's confusion on such issues if they would just honor God and His word; but raher than pray, "Lord, open my eyes to comprehend," they just deny, avoid, and misrepresent. Shameful! Don't letum getcha down Z man.

Thanks Rolf! :thumb:

Sometimes I may use the 'wrong' words to try and explain my views, but I only desire from the deepest part of my being for these people to grasp a better concept of God and Christianity than they already have. They rob God of so much glory. Sometimes I just can't spit it out the way I think of it in my head. I mean, I know what I want to say, but sometimes I seem to have a hard time trying to find the exact words to say them...

There are things that God does that to us seem illogical. I mean, when was the last time anyone here seen a body of water split in two, and saw people walk across on dry land? Or, has anyone here seen an alter soaked in water consumed in fire sent from Heaven above? Has anyone seen people raised from the dead? Please, tell me, does anyone not find the concept of the Trinity 'illogical'? Can anyone fully comprehend that?

Than why do you mock me when I say that the truth of God's sovereignty and of man's responsibility are both taught to us from Scriptures? It may seem 'illogical' to our feable, puny, evil little minds, but to God, nothing is impossible.

And Rolf, great point that the very things the OV'ers are 'afraid' to attribute to God, that He does! They claim God cannot do no evil, and we all agree. Thus, when God kills, destroys, brings afflictions upon, casts diseases upon, causes calamity, etc., God cannot be held accountable for committing evil! He does as He pleases! If He has chosen to give some woman cancer, then He is just for doing so! He is not an 'evil' God for creating calamity upon whomever He chooses; He is God! Who can say to Him, "What are you doing? You are wrong!" Who is man to reply against God?

Knight, I find it very unwise of you to state from the very first post in this thread, that the woman was stupid for claiming that God had given her cancer. From fear of 'judging God of evil', you deprive yourself of a deeper understanding of His absolute glory and sovereignty...

Matthew 5:45
For [God] makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.


I have to admit, I am weary from this thread. You can lead a horse to the water, but you can't make 'em drink. Similar to what Paul once said in 1Co 3:6,

"I planted, Rolf, Boogerhead, and others have watered, but may God give the increase."

God bless everyone. To Him alone belongs all Power, Glory, and Honor forever...

:zman:

 

[Big Finn]

Why in the world would God decree something to happen if it goes against His will. That is rather similar to being, ,,, insane, isn't it?

The way I see the entire question that is before us is just what you said. I think Rolf understands what I'm getting at and that is why he is ignoring my posts.

Jesus and the Father are one. They are both God. They both have identical characters. Jesus' character is one of selflessness. He demonstrated this fully by His life here on earth, and in doing so also demonstrated the Father's character. Thus God's character is one of selflessness.

Selfishness is diametrically opposed to selflessness, thus it is against the character of God. I gave the following description of of selflessnes and selfishness and Rolf completely agreed with it.

Selflessness:
1. Selflessness is what we see expressed in the life of Christ and His mission here on earth. It is at the heart of His every action. Nothing in the life of Christ ever happened that is outside of this principle.

2. Selflessness is also expressed in the sacrifice of what one holds dearest for the good of others, as in the Father sacrficing His Son.

Selfishness:
1. Anything that violates that principle expressed in the life of Christ.

2. Any action that harms others so that the person doing it might look good on the surface.


A statement of fact is not self-exaltation. When God says He is good, kind, loving, merciful, etc... He is not exalting Himself, He is simply telling us who He is.

Big Finn--Bravo! Who could disagree with post #240??

Now, God ordaining a rape for His own glory is an exact fit the second characteristic of a selfish action. Thus for God to do such a thing would lie far outside the bounds of His character. It would be an insane thing for God to do. It would be against His own character. It would also be outside the character of God to ordain sin in the first place, because sin is harmful to anyone who comes in contact with it.

I believe this paradigm shows Calvinism to be deeply in contradiction with itself. It claims to honor God, but yet at the same time it paints God in about as bad a light as it is possible to picture Him.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Z Man

Thanks Rolf! :thumb:

Sometimes I may use the 'wrong' words to try and explain my views, but I only desire from the deepest part of my being for these people to grasp a better concept of God and Christianity than they already have.

I would like to state that I believe Z Man to be the most logically consistent Calvinist currently posting on TOL.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Rolf....

I don't seem to see you responding to any questions directed to you.

I asked...

YES or NO... Does God decree EVERYTHING?

And just to be fair I will answer the question myself, who knows maybe we will share the same answer?

my answer....
NO. God does not decree EVERYTHING.

Agree? Or disagree?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Z Man
Knight, I find it very unwise of you to state from the very first post in this thread, that the woman was stupid for claiming that God had given her cancer. From fear of 'judging God of evil', you deprive yourself of a deeper understanding of His absolute glory and sovereignty...

God decreed that I would think the woman was stupid.

What do you think about that?

 

[drbrumley]

Originally posted by Knight

God decreed that I would think the woman was stupid.

What do you think about that?

Ah man, there went my new keyboard.

 

[drbrumley]

Serously though,

a Calvanist most come to Knight's conclusion. Every thought, every action was conceived by God. We just merely act it out. Which would make us robots. And God's Holy Word does not teach such garbage.

DRB

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Knight

God decreed that I would think the woman was stupid.

What do you think about that?

He did not make you 'think' like that. You thought of it youself. God has, however, withheld a greater understanding of His sovereignty from you. May God reveal this to you someday, I pray.

And thanks for that comment earlier...

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by drbrumley

Serously though,

a Calvanist most come to Knight's conclusion. Every thought, every action was conceived by God. We just merely act it out. Which would make us robots. And God's Holy Word does not teach such garbage.

DRB

On the contrary, we think our own thoughts. God just directs our steps, using us as He wills. We make our own plans, but God is the one who directs our steps. Sometimes our plans come to pass, and sometimes they don't. God gets His way all the time. He'll use someones evil intentions and plans to show His glory and cause good.

Genesis 50:20
But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive.

Proverbs 16:9
A man's heart plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps.

Proverbs 21:1-2
The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, Like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes. Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, But the Lord weighs the hearts.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by Z Man
There are things that God does that to us seem illogical. I mean, when was the last time anyone here seen a body of water split in two, and saw people walk across on dry land? Or, has anyone here seen an alter soaked in water consumed in fire sent from Heaven above? Has anyone seen people raised from the dead? Please, tell me, does anyone not find the concept of the Trinity 'illogical'? Can anyone fully comprehend that?

Our inability to fully understand something or to comprehend it does not mean that it is illogical. Nor is it required for things to be confined within the normal natural laws to be logical. Supernatural events like the ones you mention are logical if they are caused by something that is supernatural. And the Trinity, while not explained fully in the Scriptures, is not internally inconsistent, contradictory, or in any other way illogical. A lack of information does not imply that the subject is illogical.

Calvinism however cannot escape that easily! Calvinism is internally inconsistent and self contradictory practically from start to finish! Justice, responsibility, relationship, love, good, evil, sin and righteousness all become utterly meaningless in a Calvinist worldview and yet Calvinists cling to these concepts even though they cannot get past the fact that their own belief system demands that the only reason they cling to such ideas is not because these ideas are meaningful but because they have been predestined to cling to them.
Sozo's statement really put Calvinism in a nutshell...
"He orchestrates our actions and then asks us not to grieve his Spirit through them."

All Calvinists MUST agree with both halves of this statement or they are not Calvinist.
1.We are commanded not to grieve the Holy Spirit.
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
2.He (God) orchestrates (predestines) our actions (including those that grieve the Holy Spirit).

If that is not internal inconsistency and outright contradiction, what is?

What's more is that this is all unnecessary! Open theism is at least as consistent with the Biblical data concerning the nature of God's creation and of time if not more so. I do not understand why one would feel the need to bend so far over backward to cling to such an obviously self-contradictory theological system as Calvinism.


Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[1Way]

Why is it when I read Z's last post, I hear like that TV announcer from the twilight zone. The story you are about to witness, may seem stranger than life, but sometimes, what seems strange ...

do di do du

do di do du

do di do du

do di do du

LOL

He did not make you 'think' like that. You thought of it youself. God has, however, withheld a greater understanding of His sovereignty from you.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by Z Man
He did not make you 'think' like that. You thought of it youself.

Originally posted by Z Man
On the contrary, we think our own thoughts. God just directs our steps, using us as He wills. We make our own plans, but God is the one who directs our steps. Sometimes our plans come to pass, and sometimes they don't. God gets His way all the time. He'll use someones evil intentions and plans to show His glory and cause good.

Z Man,

We're gonna make an Open Theist out of you yet!
What you've said here is not Calvinist theology! Calvinism would insist that everything including every thought in our heads was predestined by God before time began. You are trying to have your cake and eat it too! You can't have it both ways! Either God predestined everything or the future is open. Which is it going to be?

Resting in Him,
Clete